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Alienating the FIA


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#1 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 19:52

http://www.planetf1....5187619,00.html

Looking at the quotes from court today are the NON double difuser teams (specifically Renault and Ferrari) risking Alienating the FIA in the same was McMerc seems to have done????

I mean they are direstly and aggressivly questioning Whiting and even Max

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#2 TickTickBooom

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:03

This is so messy. I can't believe how aggressive the arguments are! I'm still confident of a fair verdict, but for one QC to ramble on for 90 minutes? Looks like they don't want to give anyone else a chance to say anything. I think the non-DDD teams are running scared, no matter how confident they're trying to look.

#3 WillG

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:09

Haha, I love this line

'However, Tozzi concluded his 90-minute opening remarks by claiming that "only a person of supreme arrogance would think he is right when so many of his esteemed colleagues would disagree".'

"You don't agree with all of us so you are arrogant!" :rolleyes:

#4 rolf123

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:21

Originally posted by WillG
Haha, I love this line

'However, Tozzi concluded his 90-minute opening remarks by claiming that "only a person of supreme arrogance would think he is right when so many of his esteemed colleagues would disagree".'

"You don't agree with all of us so you are arrogant!" :rolleyes:


I agree with you how daft it is. If you apply the same logic to this board, then there are many who say:

"You don't agree with all of us so you are a troll!"

Some people just can't handle the truth!
:p

#5 D A

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:22

Originally posted by rolf123


I agree with you how daft it is. If you apply the same logic to this board, then there are many who say:

"You don't agree with all of us so you are a troll!"

Some people just can't handle the truth!
:p



Oh, the irony. :lol:

#6 ensign14

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:26

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
This is so messy. I can't believe how aggressive the arguments are! I'm still confident of a fair verdict, but for one QC to ramble on for 90 minutes? Looks like they don't want to give anyone else a chance to say anything. I think the non-DDD teams are running scared, no matter how confident they're trying to look.

He was probably given 90 minutes. May as well get money's worth.

#7 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:40

Originally posted by ensign14

He was probably given 90 minutes. May as well get money's worth.


I just think being as agressive to the FIA as that could be very countaproductive...

Imagine Ross + Co just say "we have no statment only have total trust the FIA, tehir stweards, and their decision making capabilities".

#8 stevewf1

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:41

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
This is so messy. I can't believe how aggressive the arguments are! I'm still confident of a fair verdict, but for one QC to ramble on for 90 minutes? Looks like they don't want to give anyone else a chance to say anything. I think the non-DDD teams are running scared, no matter how confident they're trying to look.


Spirit of the rules indeed... :lol:

#9 bonjon1979

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 20:59

I think it's a sorry state of affairs that the teams should fear the wrath of the FIA. At the moment it seems that this 'sport' is becoming less and less about the racing and more about what goes on off the track. The fact of the matter is that after an incredible season last year, it seems the FIA are hellbent on destroying this sport and so much of it is due to the personal issues involved and the growing power struggle between FOTA and the FOM/ FIA. Ideally, we should never notice the FIA with maybe the occasional intervention. But now it seems unavoidable that Max'll be sticking his oar (paddle) in whenever he can. I'm fast getting sick and tired of what's happening to F1 at the moment. I'm a lifelong fan but feel utterly alienated by the FIA who seem to think that the sport is a platform for their posturing and power struggles, rather than for the entertainment of the fans.

#10 Rob

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:02

Lets see, what else goes against the spirit of the rules?

Flexi wings (Ferrari)
Trick brake pedal (McLaren)
Hidden traction control (Benetton/Renault)
Customer cars (Red Bull/Toro Rosso)

All as bad as each other.

#11 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:06

I know it's in (supposeably) closed court....

But doesnt basically calling Charlie Whiting Incompetitant bring the sport into disripute??? seems pretty harsh to me!!

It's in the public eye now!!!

#12 Rob

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:09

Originally posted by Mika Mika
I know it's in (supposeably) closed court....

But doesnt basically calling Charlie Whiting Incompetitant bring the sport into disripute??? seems pretty harsh to me!!

It's in the public eye now!!!


No, it doesn't count as bringing the sport into disrepute because it's a personal opinion. Otherwise Max would have been sanctioned many times by now. And it's not like the FIA to be inconsistent.

#13 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:13

Originally posted by Rob


No, it doesn't count as bringing the sport into disrepute because it's a personal opinion. Otherwise Max would have been sanctioned many times by now. And it's not like the FIA to be inconsistent.


HaHa,

Well my original point is that calling Charlie Whiting incompetitant isnt excatly gonna do Ferrari and Renault (at least so far - we dunno how BMW Redbull & McLarens comments were taken) any favors...

It's surly gonna Alienate them with the FIA tech team a little...

#14 Anomnader

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:17

Originally posted by Mika Mika
I know it's in (supposeably) closed court....

But doesnt basically calling Charlie Whiting Incompetitant bring the sport into disripute??? seems pretty harsh to me!!

It's in the public eye now!!!


I thought that was common knowledge and the fact he is a drinking partner of Brawns

#15 ensign14

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:19

Originally posted by Mika Mika

Imagine Ross + Co just say "we have no statment only have total trust the FIA, tehir stweards, and their decision making capabilities".

Oh God, they're screwed.

#16 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 April 2009 - 21:19

Originally posted by ensign14

Oh God, they're screwed.


Nah, this isnt McMerc were talking about ;)

#17 Mika Mika

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:34

http://www.jamesalle...1.com/index.htm

seems james allen agrees Tozzi was very very strong!

#18 kar

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:37

But hang on Ferrari and the FIA are one and the same!

#19 mclarensmps

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:41

Originally posted by kar
But hang on Ferrari and the FIA are one and the same!


They could be, but Max and Bernie have a bigger problem in FOTA...

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#20 Mika Mika

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 09:48

Originally posted by kar
But hang on Ferrari and the FIA are one and the same!


Clearly total BS....

#21 fed up

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 10:08

This is very important yet seems to have been overlooked by most.

The FIA, and in particular technical director Charlie Whiting, also came under fire, with Tozzi accusing them of "getting it wrong, and not understanding the point".

That appeared to be made clear when Renault's legal representative, Andrew Ford, noted the FIA and Whiting had early last season ruled illegal a design by the French manufacturer similar to that currently being used by Toyota.

As Ford remarked: "It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal."

Ford added: "It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned."


Charlie Whiting seems to be at the centre of decisions that are subsequently overruled.

#22 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:03

Well the FIA is the UN of motorsport, what did you expect? :confused:

#23 Slowinfastout

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:11

Originally posted by kar
But hang on Ferrari and the FIA are one and the same!


The situation changed radically. The Ferrari team of today isn't the same as it was under Todt, plus now there's LDM at the head of FOTA..

I find it weird when people still say the FIA is biased towards Ferrari, even though it seems it was the case some time ago..

#24 Slowinfastout

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:14

Originally posted by fed up
This is very important yet seems to have been overlooked by most.



Charlie Whiting seems to be at the centre of decisions that are subsequently overruled.


I wouldn't put it past the FIA to have misled some teams at some point with the diffusers. I was saying that early in the diffusers threads that it's weird the best teams somehow chose not to exploit a known loophole..

#25 AyePirate

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:19

Originally posted by kar
But hang on Ferrari and the FIA are one and the same!


Not since the FOTA. Remember Max bitchy comments about how McLaren and Ferrari were "busy making love to each other"?

I think this decision is designed to make them nostalgic for the good old days of Todt and the special relationship.
And it hurts McLaren so all the bitter, I mean better.

#26 klover

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:20

Originally posted by AyePirate


Not since the FOTA. Remember Max bitchy comments about how McLaren and Ferrari were "busy making love to each other"?

I think this decision is designed to make them nostalgic for the good old days of Todt and the special relationship.
And it hurts McLaren so all the bitter, I mean better.


Did he really make such a sneering remark?

#27 AyePirate

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:21

I would not ask Charlie Whiting the time of day. The FIA would overrule it :lol:

#28 engel

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:23

All the big teams are angry at the 30m budget for 2010 thing, is it any surprise?

#29 Slowinfastout

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:24

Originally posted by klover


Did he really make such a sneering remark?


Yes, Max said that to justify rehabilitating the spygate boys..

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/73154

#30 AyePirate

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:26

Originally posted by klover


Did he really make such a sneering remark?


Yes when Mike Coughlin and Nigel Stepney were given the all clear to work again.

"The other day we got a letter from the lawyers of one of them saying he has got this restriction and this restriction, and it does seem a little bit mad to make them serve out even longer when the two teams concerned are all making love to each other," Mosley said. "So, we have said we will let them forget it. "In the end they were just very minor players. If the full story came out, they are two minor players and there are people who are not minor players. But the full story will probably never come out."



http://www.telegraph...orld-sting.html

No one does Motor Sport disrepute with as much flair as our Max

#31 klover

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:27

Originally posted by Slowinfastout


Yes, Max said that to justify rehabilitating the spygate boys..

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/73154


Thanks

That guy is even more arrogant than Ross :lol:

"I have to say, not because I am anti-McLaren but from a purely legal point, I would have excluded them - but the majority of the world council preferred the fine."

Where did his legal principles go in 1994, for example? Or same 2007 when Renault was found to have McLaren IP in their factory computers... The old pervert makes me sick.

#32 Owen

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:29

Max is just annoyed that the old 'divide and conquer' routine doesn't work anymore with McLaren and Ferrari.

#33 Greem

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:29

Originally posted by Rob
Lets see, what else goes against the spirit of the rules?

Flexi wings (Ferrari)

Difficult to see at a standstill...

Trick brake pedal (McLaren)


Also difficult to see unless you were upside down in the cockpit...

Hidden traction control (Benetton/Renault)


"Option 13" - impossible to see, harder to test for, practically inevitable without a standard ECU/EMU that's used now...

Customer cars (Red Bull/Toro Rosso)

All as bad as each other.


Hrm. That last one was agreed by the rulemakers, the teams, the manufacturers etc etc etc. It might not be popular, but it's been permitted. The other three weren't, which is partly why they were controversial and ended up being banned - they really were "tricks of the trade". Customer cars are hardly in the same league... "Psst, wanna buy this year's McLaren? We won't tell anyone".

Well, OK, the last bits just too far fetched. Who would want to buy that?

I recall Newey once saying that there was no "spirit of the rules"...

#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 15:38

Originally posted by fed up

Charlie Whiting seems to be at the centre of decisions that are subsequently overruled.

The opinion of Charles Whiting seems to be getting more irrelevant with every passing controversy.

#35 Ricardo F1

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 16:52

Originally posted by Owen
Max is just annoyed that the old 'divide and conquer' routine doesn't work anymore with McLaren and Ferrari.

Mostly - I dunno, McLaren have been very quiet in the whole diffuser issue.

#36 wdh

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 17:16

Originally posted by Buttoneer
The opinion of Charles Whiting seems to be getting more irrelevant with every passing controversy.


Look, I'm no supporter of Whiting - BUT - he's doing this part of his job better than Race Control.

He's in charge of scrutineering.
If he says "its legal" the scrutes WILL pass it. Similarly, if he says "no" the scrutes will fail the car.

HOWEVER, his authority is (and always was) subject to the possibility of being over-ruled by the Stewards (which really ought not to happen, but seems to have done at Spa) ... AND by the Appeal Court.
In the DDD case, for the 3 teams, please note the Court did actually back Whiting's call.


Now, what would be interesting would be if Renault turned up at scrutineering with a DDD which Whiting thought did NOT meet the rules... ;)

#37 AyePirate

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Posted 15 April 2009 - 18:08

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Mostly - I dunno, McLaren have been very quiet in the whole diffuser issue.


It's hard to get worked up when there's a chance you won't even be on the grid.