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Nurburgring question


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#1 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 13:16

I have tried outside and the SearchBB , but not found :

Looking for help here , picture , sketch or drawing or link of how, the big square paddock with garages and an entrance gate of the 50's & 60's , were place compared to the starting line with pits ?

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#2 Lotus23

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 15:24

Bjorn, I'm sure subsequent posters will be able to give you detailed photos and dimensions down to the centimeter, but my recollection nearly 50 years later is that the paddock/garage area was on the same side as the hotel (i.e., opposite the pits and the big scoring tower).

Driving, you left the paddock/garage area and drove through a short tunnel (istr a sign at the tunnel entrance: "Einfahrt zum Nurburgring"). When you exited the tunnel, you were on the finishing straight opposite the pits with S-F off to your L a bit.

#3 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 15:37

Hi Lotus23 , I do remember something about a tunnel , but it never got into my head. Your explanation does give me an idea of the whole whereabouts now , but of course an airview would be great. I am working on a diorama , hence the question , and thanks.

#4 r.atlos

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 17:25

This one may help:

Posted Image

#5 RStock

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 17:51

Originally posted by r.atlos
This one may help:

Posted Image


Umm.. I don't think that's Nurburgring .

#6 Cirrus

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 18:13

The Paddock is still there. It is opposite the current pits, on the same side as the Dorint Hotel. Access from the infield is via a tunnel. Google Earth might help you out.

Just checked - It's labeled on Google Earth as "Das Alte Fahrerlager" - The Old Paddock. It's right by the corner that leads onto the start/finish straight of the current GP circuit.

#7 2F-001

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 18:50

It should be fairly straightforward to work out from a mixed bag of sources, old and new.
The map of the Betonschleife (literally "concete loop") posted above ideal.
As Alan points out, the old paddock is still there, as is the curving tunnel into the "new" paddock area of the "modern" circuit.

Also, there are many other features still existing that will be on current maps and images (the road going under the bridge into Nurburg, Hohenrein, Hatzenbach, bits of the old Sudscheife etc), that it should be possible to determine exactly where the old S&F line would be on the ground now. (It can't be too far away from the current one.)

Sorry, don't have my books and maps to had at the moment to post anything more helpful.

#8 r.atlos

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 19:19

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA


Umm.. I don't think that's Nurburgring .

Sorry guys to disappoint you. Björn had asked for the 50s and 60s and this is the most detailed plan I can offer of the "old" Ring. If you think I have selected the wrong circuit please feel free to offer "another Nürburgring" ... :lol:

The current earthmoves to make even the 1984 Nürburgring into a space lab may not yet be available on Earth Google but I did not understand that that was the question.

#9 RStock

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 19:43

Originally posted by r.atlos

Sorry guys to disappoint you. Björn had asked for the 50s and 60s and this is the most detailed plan I can offer of the "old" Ring. If you think I have selected the wrong circuit please feel free to offer "another Nürburgring" ... :lol:

The current earthmoves to make even the 1984 Nürburgring into a space lab may not yet be available on Earth Google but I did not understand that that was the question.


Oh , I see now . It's the "Betonschleife" . Sorry . I'm not used to seeing that configuration .

#10 Lotus23

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 01:20

Yup, I actually raced on the Betonschleife a couple of times.

It's surprising the little details that stick in your head all these years later: going into the Southcurve, there was a little strip of concrete at the turn-in point which gave you an extra foot or so on the R just before you turned L.

And I have trouble remembering where I left my sunglasses this afternoon...

#11 HistoricMustang

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 08:56

Originally posted by Cirrus
The Paddock is still there. It is opposite the current pits, on the same side as the Dorint Hotel. Access from the infield is via a tunnel. Google Earth might help you out.

Just checked - It's labeled on Google Earth as "Das Alte Fahrerlager" - The Old Paddock. It's right by the corner that leads onto the start/finish straight of the current GP circuit.


Posted Image

Henry :clap:

#12 Twin Window

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 10:16

Am I mad, or am I correct in remembering that in 1982 (during the F2 meeting) I used a tunnel to reach the hotel from the paddock? :confused:

I suspect that I'm being particularly dense this morning... :rolleyes:

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 12:19

There was (probably still is) a tunnel from beneath the Race Control tower to the other side, emerging between the Media Centre and the hotel, IIRC

#14 Rob Ryder

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 20:50

Posted on behalf for Bjørn Kjer

Posted Image

#15 Ivan

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 20:55

There is a thread here somewhere about that track and it showed where it is now part of the autobahn.

#16 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 21:00

Post 14 showing a nice air view , I guess from 1954. Fits well with r.atlos drawing.
Nothing about copyright , but if any objects to it , I will delete at once.
Thanks for all help.

#17 LOLE

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 21:09

The tunnel is still there....

#18 Udo K.

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:13

Originally posted by Ivan
There is a thread here somewhere about that track and it showed where it is now part of the autobahn.


I don't think a single meter of the Nürburgring has become part of an "autobahn".... :confused:

#19 Udo K.

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:13

Originally posted by LOLE
The tunnel is still there....



... but tricky to find... :cool:

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#20 Der Pate

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:40

Originally posted by Udo K.


I don't think a single meter of the Nürburgring has become part of an "autobahn".... :confused:


Correct...the whole Nordschleife exists and can be raced...

The Autobahn is right next to it...

#21 Paul Parker

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:52

Twin Window

Am I mad, or am I correct in remembering that in 1982 (during the F2 meeting) I used a tunnel to reach the hotel from the paddock?

I suspect that I'm being particularly dense this morning...


No you are not, mad that is.

I too used this tunnel that is now gone or at least no longer accessible, in the late 1990s. I seem to recall that it was accessible underneath the pits complex somewhere but the passage of time and brain fade has erased the details.

Sorry I cannot do better than that but I can confirm it definitely existed.

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:11

Originally posted by Paul Parker
Sorry I cannot do better than that

You could look at Post 13 :lol:

#23 Duc-Man

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:18

I just put the map from r.atlos and the google-earth image side by side. The scale seems to be almost the same.
The S/F straigt is about there where the pitlane used to be. There is a tunnel that goes from the old paddock to the pits still at the exact same spot than it was before the rebuilding. But that was redone as well. It is now just a few yards longer than the old one.
When they build the new track in 1982/83 they took everything apart. the only thing that survived was the 'Conti-Turm'.
If there was a tunnel from the old pits to the old hotel...that is defenetly gone.

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#24 Paul Parker

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:32

What is more David I'm pretty sure you were at the Oldtimer meeting when I used it.

#25 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 16:43

Duc-Man, the label for the Südschleife is not positioned correctly, it should be slightly more to the left. It ran through what is now a parking lot on the other side of the public road.

As for the tunnels, as already mentioned there was of course a tunnel from the old square-shaped paddock to the circuit. It still exists but it has been widened and extended. The wall is decorated with a really weird piece of artwork that shows the silhouette of Nord- and Südschleife...except that they are mirrored!

There was another tunnel just south of the old paddock, from which you could reach the timekeepers' building, and, further on, the spectator zones along the back straight or "Gegengerade".

I'm not sure, but I think this tunnel was replaced by a new one when the GP circuit was built. At the moment the whole area is one big construction site though, God only knows what still exists and what does not.

#26 David McKinney

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 17:38

Originally posted by Duc-Man
If there was a tunnel from the old pits to the old hotel...that is defenetly gone.]

It's removal must have been quite recent - I'm sure I've used it this century
To clarify matters, this was only a pedestrian tunnel, and I suspect not open to the public

#27 Udo K.

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 17:44

Originally posted by David McKinney

It's removal must have been quite recent - I'm sure I've used it this century
To clarify matters, this was only a pedestrian tunnel, and I suspect not open to the public



Correct! I used it a few years ago. Access is in the cellar of the press and race control building...

#28 Duc-Man

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 13:55

Now I understand what you were talking about. For some reason I thought that that old pedestrian tunnel was 'replaced' by the bridges that cross the start/finish straigt when the GP track was build. Specially since one goes over the track right beside the press center.

Südschleife: I noticed my mistake right after i posted the picture. The track would leave the picture to the left about the hight of where my label is...Sorry.

#29 LOLE

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 21:14

I was at the Nürburgring today and took a lot of pictures of the Old Paddock to help you all (details of garages, tunnel entrance and exit, wall inscriptions etc).
I will post them as soon as possible...

#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 21:33

Not having been back there for donkey's years, whatever became of the fantastic old Sudschleife? I spent a week there once with Phil Hill doing a series of track tests for 'Road & Track' on the Mercedes-Benz Museum cars. The old circuit was unmodified, with its hedges intact, and it was a joy. I see from GoogleEarth that the old long curve at Mullenbach appears to have survived, but I lose the plot on the former locations of both the outward and return legs. What do you think?

I reported the 1968 EifelRennen F2 raceon that circuit for 'Motoring News' and still regard that piece with considerable nostalgic affection. I certainly preferred the Sudschleife to the Nordschleife in its modified form. What a tragedy that internal German motor sporting politics should have seen it obliterated.

DCN

#31 lil'chris

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 22:00

Doug,

I think 3/4's of it's still there.

TNF's Rob Semmeling has probably the ultimate site dedicated to the Sudschleife.

http://sudschleife.8...sudschleife.htm

Cheers

Chris

#32 LOLE

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 19:15

This is a plan where you can clearly see the old paddock with it's main entrance (1), a second entrance/exit (2), tunnel access (3) and tunnel exit (4) towards the actual paddock.
This old paddock dates from 18/19 June 1927 and remained practically unchanged during all the decades. It is still in use today.
A wooden tower in the corner between the Dorint Hotel (pink building) and the tunnel entrance looks out over the old paddock and is a protected monument.

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Main entrance to the old paddock:

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Second entrance, opposite the main access:

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Tunnel entrance (two drive ways, one IN, one OUT). See the wooden tower in the corner left of the tunnel...

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Tunnel exit seen from the actual paddock...

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There are 54 garages (all numbered)...

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#33 LOLE

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 20:50

Sudschleife.
I think there is not much left from this circuit nowadays Mr Nye. Maybe you can compare these maps with the existing roads on Google Earth...

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#34 Duc-Man

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 13:19

Comparing the map on the top with a map I have with the GP track iI can say that it sounds right to say that 3/4 are still there.
From P8 to 'Bocksberg' is the track untouched but turned into a normal road. From the slight right after Müllenbach up to the 'Scharfer Kopf' is the track also still there. The two curves inbetween are redone into one long right with changing radius. Everything from there on to the 'Betonschleife' is gone.

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#35 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 13:53

Since the subject came up... Together with a friend of mine, I have written a detailed book about the former South Loop of the Nürburgring. It is finished and we are hoping to find a publisher for it.

#36 fines

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 17:08

Well done, Rob, and best of luck! :up:

#37 alansart

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 19:20

The Autodrome book by SS Collins has a chapter on the Sudschleife. Looks an interesting place.

#38 Mark A

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 20:16

I believe this is the Sudschleife layout on the current road system.

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The sections between the Red & Blue pins and the Green & yellow pins still exist in tarmac today and can be driven (although difficult in the green pin area). There was a video I did a number of years ago driving part of the green to yellow section but it's not on Rob's site anymore and I can't find it.

#39 lil'chris

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 10:20

Mark,

Are you sure about the section in yellow between the blue and green pins ? I think the straight connecting the old Bocksberg & Mullenbach corners might be that bit of road just above the red rooved building at the bottom of the picture.

Cheers

Chris

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#40 Mark A

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 11:05

Originally posted by lil'chris
Mark,

Are you sure about the section in yellow between the blue and green pins ? I think the straight connecting the old Bocksberg & Mullenbach corners might be that bit of road just above the red rooved building at the bottom of the picture.

Cheers

Chris


Looking at the maps above I think your right, I'll have a look at it tonight.

#41 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 15:42

Well that red roofed building is actually the Sportplatz (sports field) of Müllenbach. Looking at the google maps image and the map posted by LOLE I'd say that road you see is that bit of street that runs in the map paralell to the track.

I would say this is how it should look like between the blue and green pins:
Posted Image

#42 Ivan

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 15:50

Originally posted by Der Pate


Correct...the whole Nordschleife exists and can be raced...

The Autobahn is right next to it...

I'm mistaken then...but there was a thread with a track that looks like the one pictured by r.altos, that became part of the autobahn, with the loop still visible. If I find it I'll link it to this thread.

#43 Ren de Boer

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 16:06

Originally posted by Ivan

I'm mistaken then...but there was a thread with a track that looks like the one pictured by r.altos, that became part of the autobahn, with the loop still visible. If I find it I'll link it to this thread.


I am pretty sure you mean the AVUS in Berlin, which is part of the BAB 115, the Autobahn that runs into the city. At the Nürburgring, the nearest Autobahn is at least 20 km away. The winding road all the way up to the 'Ring can be a real pleasure when it is free, but can also be quite annoying when you have a race trailer or the like in front of you, and you can't see enough to overtake safely...

#44 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 16:23

Forget this Autobahn rub****. The closest Autobahn part to the Nürburgring is the exit Ulmen...about 12 miles away. A race track that became Autobahn is the AVUS in Berlin.
The layout of the 'Betonschleife' has a simlarity to the AVUS. The loops just go to the other side.
This is the AVUS how it was used in 1952.
Posted Image

The AVUS was opened in 1921 with 12 miles track length. It was basically two slightly banked (later one banked and one flat) turns with two 5 mile straights inbetween. Then it was shortened a few times down to 1.6 miles!
BTW AVUS stands for 'Automobil und Verkehrs Übungs-Straße'

#45 Ivan

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 17:01

Ahhh...
Thank you. Both tracks look similar.

#46 Ivan

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 17:28

Here it is.

The first two photos are the ones that someone posted here. I found it on google.

#47 Duc-Man

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 17:57

The top picture is the Nordkurve ((north turn) which is the banked turn further down). The second picture is the south turn after the track was shortened for the first time.

The original Südkurve in the 1930's:
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At the end was the south turn about at the tip of the arrow of the bottom picture...2640 meters for a lap.

#48 Mark A

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 22:00

Originally posted by Duc-Man
Well that red roofed building is actually the Sportplatz (sports field) of Müllenbach. Looking at the google maps image and the map posted by LOLE I'd say that road you see is that bit of street that runs in the map paralell to the track.

I would say this is how it should look like between the blue and green pins:
Posted Image


Looking at it tonight I think your layout is correct. There is a street called Zur Sudschleife but I don't think it was ever part of the Sudschleife

#49 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 06:55

I have a lap of the remaining and driveable parts of the old Südschleife on Youtube :

It was taken during the Vintage Nürburgring event - the only possibility once a year to drive that part of the old circuit.
Fortunately, it is closed for traffic !

Please excuse the not too good quality..

Ralf

#50 Rennmax

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Posted 26 April 2009 - 06:47

Hi, quite naive question for all the experts on this thread....where there races which combined both tracks ? Thanks