China GP 2009 car weights (merged)
#1
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:02
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#2
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:14
Kovalainen - 697kg*
Massa - 690kg*
Räikkonen - 673.5kg
Kubica - 659kg*
Heidfeld - 679kg
Alonso - 637kg
Piquet - 697.9kg*
Trulli - 664kg
Glock - 652kg*
Bourdais - 690kg*
Buemi - 673kg
Webber - 646.5kg
Vettel - 644kg
Rosberg - 650.5kg
Nakajima - 682.7kg*
Sutil - 648kg*
Fisichella - 679.5kg*
Button - 659kg
Barrichello - 661kg
http://www.fia.com/e...n09_weights.pdf
#3
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:16
#4
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:16
Brawns seem to have the more flexible fuel strategy
#5
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:18
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 644
2. Alonso Renault 637
3. Webber Red Bull-Renault 646.5
4. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 661
5. Button Brawn-Mercedes 659
6. Trulli Toyota 664.5
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 650.5
8. Raikkonen Ferrari 673.5
9. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 679
10. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 673
11. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 679
12. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 697
13. Massa Ferrari 690
14. Glock Toyota 652
15. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 682.7
16. Bourdais Toro Rosso-Ferrari 690
17. Piquet Renault 697.9
18. Kubica BMW-Sauber 659
19. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 648
20. Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 679.5
#6
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:18
Alonso 637 :
He's going for a three stop apparently.
#7
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:19
Originally posted by Timstr11
Rubens 661
Alonso 637 :
He's going for a three stop apparently.
Not necessarily, it's probably like Aus, short stint on the options longer stints on the primes
#8
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:25
#9
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:27
The 3 stop strategy is close to the 2 stopping in China, in terms of outcome. Whether it will be a 3 or 2 stop for Alonso depends on how well the car/tyres handle a heavy middle stint.Originally posted by EthanM
Not necessarily, it's probably like Aus, short stint on the options longer stints on the primes
#10
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:29
Obviously its not 100% accurate, the Brawns obviously won't pit on the same lap, but its just to give a brief idea.
#11
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:30
Don't moan about any typos - I can't be bothered
#12
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:36
Originally posted by Timstr11
The 3 stop strategy is close to the 2 stopping in China, in terms of outcome. Whether it will be a 3 or 2 stop for Alonso depends on how well the car/tyres handle a heavy middle stint.
It's predicted to rain at the end of the race. So those chosing to run the super-softs at the start, could lose out near the end of the race if everybody has to switch to wets. The drop off according to Bridgestone is no more than 2 seconds a lap. . That will give Raikkonen/Hamilton & Buemi(yes Buemi) a chance to stay close to the Brawns, Rosberg & Trulli, while the front 3 hold the pack up on the super-softs.
#13
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:38
You have to distract 2-3 laps off of them:Originally posted by D.M.N.
Hippo suggested on the other thread that a lap round Shanghai will take about 2.5kg per lap. Based on that, here is the laps which the cars should round-about be pitting on.
Obviously its not 100% accurate, the Brawns obviously won't pit on the same lap, but its just to give a brief idea.
-they use fuel when getting to the starting grid
-they use fuel during the warm-up lap
-they carry water for the driver and stuff
#14
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:39
Originally posted by djellison
Not sure if 2.7kg/lap and 0.33s / 10kg is right - but if it is...Weight Fuel Laps (2.7kg/lap) Time Fuel Delay (.33s/10kg) Adjusted Time Rubens Barrichello 661 56 20.7 96.493 1.848 94.645 Jenson Buton 659 54 20.0 96.532 1.782 94.750 Jarno Trulli 664.5 59.5 22.0 96.835 1.964 94.872 Seb Vettel 644 39 14.4 96.184 1.287 94.897 Mark Webber 646.5 41.5 15.4 96.466 1.370 95.097 Fernando Alonso 637 32 11.9 96.381 1.056 95.325 Kimi Raikkonen 673.5 68.5 25.4 98.089 2.261 95.829 Nico Rosberg 650.5 45.5 16.9 97.397 1.502 95.896 Lewis Hamilton 679 74 27.4 98.595 2.442 96.153 Seb Buemi 673 68 25.2 99.321 2.244 97.077
That could be about right, Brawn still on top and Alonso really mixing it in there. Big gap then after Alonso.
Interesting calculation.
Originally posted by F.M.
You have to distract 2-3 laps off of them:
-they use fuel when getting to the starting grid
-they use fuel during the warm-up lap
-they carry water for the driver and stuff
I still presume Alonso is going to stop much earlier, as soon as the option tyres show real signs of degradation, so after app. 8 laps, Vettel and Webber will be in after 10 laps, no use to continue much longer on the super softs...
#15
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:41
#16
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:41
Originally posted by F.M.
You have to distract 2-3 laps off of them:
-they use fuel when getting to the starting grid
-they use fuel during the warm-up lap
-they carry water for the driver and stuff
Excatly...
I wander if alonso will pit as early as lap 8 - using the first stint simply to get rid of the softs...
#17
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:44
#18
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:46
Originally posted by EthanM
Brawns seem to have the more flexible fuel strategy
This is Ross Brawn we're talking about. He usually gets the race strategy right...
#19
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:48
Originally posted by D.M.N.
Thanks for the table.
Are Heikki and Nelson planning on a one stop?
Are they so confident (or despondent?) that they will run the latter half of the race on softer tires? Or perhaps an extra short third stint?
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#20
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:50
Barrichello for the win tomorrow then, nicely done in outqualifying Button with 1 extra lap of fuel.
#21
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:52
Originally posted by primer
Thanks for the table.
Are Heikki and Nelson planning on a one stop?
Are they so confident (or despondent?) that they will run the latter half of the race on softer tires? Or perhaps an extra short third stint?
Either that or they're betting on weird conditions, like a safety car or rain, that would benefit a different strategy.
#22
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:52
Well, the forecast predicts at least a rain possibility. So maybe they just want the biggest flexibility available considering their poor starting positions. If the rain starts half way through the race they'll be in an excellent position. Also soft tires wouldn't be needed anymore if there was rain.Originally posted by primer
Are Heikki and Nelson planning on a one stop?
Are they so confident (or despondent?) that they will run the latter half of the race on softer tires? Or perhaps an extra short third stint?
#23
Posted 18 April 2009 - 10:58
10 : Alonso
12 : Vettel
13 : Webber
15: Rosberg
18 : Button
19 : Barrichello
20 : Trulli
Assuming an unspectacular start - it'll start....
SV, FA, MW, RB, JB, JT
Lap 13 and it'll be just
RB, JB, JT....
Laps 13 to 20 will be vital - that's when those three have to put in the laps to get past the lighter front three.
Doug
#24
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:02
Brawn has set the cars up to be kind to the super softs -> kind to the super softs means slower in qualifying, but the possibility for a longer stint on them in the race. They are going to be the only ones of the front runners starting on the hard tires.
The reasoning is simple:
* cars are terrible at the start, but very consistent during the race
* if it rains a lot, you don't have to use the super softs at all
* if it rains a bit, you can stay out on the super softs
* if there is a safety car period any gap that you build up before it will disappear, so zooming away at the front might not work out well for you.
In other words, he's chosen to let his cars get away cleanly with no pressure and then pull away from the field as the guys in front are making their fuel stops. Then he has kept all possible choices open to them: a short stint on the super softs, a long-ish stint on the super softs, not using them at all if it rains late in the race, etc..
Renault simply worked out (total number of laps - 2 * longest stint possible with fuel tank compromised due to KERS) and put that weight into the car. They can now either let Alonso drive for a couple of laps with shot tyres or they can go to a three stopper. Whichever way he goes, he's unlikely to get back out higher than 5th.
Red Bull meanwhile are always going for the pole no matter what. It's a nice position to be in and it's what Adrian Newey's cars are best at.. in the race they are usually nail-bitingly fragile but that has improved recently. They'll be strong.
At the moment, however, it's looking good for the Brawns once again, especially for Rubens who was a bit faster than Jenson despite carrying a bit more fuel. Well done. If they keep out of trouble at the start, they'll be the cars to beat.
Then again, we all know what predictions are good for in F1..
#25
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:03
Originally posted by D.M.N.
Hippo suggested on the other thread that a lap round Shanghai will take about 2.5kg per lap. Based on that, here is the laps which the cars should round-about be pitting on.
Obviously its not 100% accurate, the Brawns obviously won't pit on the same lap, but its just to give a brief idea.
Looking at that chart, can we conclude how big some of the tanks are ?
Presuming if your heavy and out of the top 10, you just declare as much fuel as you can carry, the tanks sizes are :-
BMW 74 kg of fuel
FI 74.5
Williams 77.5
Ferrari 85
STR 85
McLaren 92
Renault 92.9
Redbull, Brawn and Toyota are all runnning under their max fuel.
#26
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:03
Previous:
Australian GP estimates and comparison with real pitstops
Malaysian GP estimates and comparison
Assumptions:
Fuel consumption: 2.78 kg/lap, 2.55 kg/5 km (Williams preview)
Slow lap (pit to the grid + warm up) fuel consumption: 40 % of normal lap
Q2 starting weight of car w/o fuel + driver + fuel remaining when pitting: 607 kg
Race starting weight of car w/o fuel + driver + fuel remaining when pitting: 610 kg
Average time penalty from Q2-Q3 time differences (2 lowest and 2 highest penalties ignored) : 0.079 s per lap of fuel and 0.028 per kg of fuel
Pit stops.
Driver Team Calc pit lap Pit lap guess Remaining laps Alonso Renault 8.912 8 48 Vettel Red Bull 11.430 11 45 Webber Red Bull 12.329 12 44 Sutil Force India 12.869 12 44 Rosberg Williams 13.768 13 43 Glock Toyota 14.308 14 42 Kubica BMW 16.826 16 40 Button Brawn GP 16.826 16 40 Barrichello Brawn GP 17.545 17 39 Trulli Toyota 18.804 18 38 Buemi Toro Rosso 21.862 21 35 Räikkönen Ferrari 22.042 22 34 Hamilton McLaren 24.020 24 32 Heidfeld BMW 24.020 24 32 Fisichella Force India 24.200 24 32 Nakajima Williams 25.351 25 31 Massa Ferrari 27.977 27 29 Bourdais Toro Rosso 27.977 27 29 Kovalainen McLaren 30.495 30 26 Piquet Renault 30.819 30 26
Fuel corrected qualifying performance.
FC Pos Pos Driver Team Q3-FC Q3 Q2 Q1 Gap 1 4 Barrichello Brawn GP 94.958 96.493 95.503 95.701 2 5 Button Brawn GP 95.054 96.532 95.556 95.533 0.096 3 1 Vettel Red Bull 95.133 96.184 95.130 96.565 0.174 4 6 Trulli Toyota 95.201 96.835 95.645 96.308 0.243 5 3 Webber Red Bull 95.344 96.466 95.173 95.751 0.385 6 2 Alonso Renault 95.528 96.381 95.803 96.443 0.570 7 7 Rosberg Williams 96.161 97.397 95.809 95.941 1.202 8 8 Räikkönen Ferrari 96.199 98.089 95.856 96.137 1.241 9 9 Hamilton McLaren 96.549 98.595 95.740 95.776 1.590 10 10 Buemi Toro Rosso 97.445 99.321 95.965 96.284 2.487 11 11 Heidfeld BMW 95.975 96.525 0.010 12 12 Kovalainen McLaren 96.032 96.646 0.067 13 13 Massa Ferrari 96.033 96.178 0.068 14 14 Glock Toyota 96.066 96.364 0.101 15 15 Nakajima Williams 96.193 96.673 0.228 16 16 Bourdais Toro Rosso 96.906 0.233 17 17 Piquet Renault 96.908 0.235 18 18 Kubica BMW 96.966 0.293 19 19 Sutil Force India 97.669 0.996 20 20 Fisichella Force India 97.672 0.999
Driver performance in Q3 compared to team performance in Q2. (Fuel corrected Q3 time minus best time of the team in Q2.)
Driver Team Q3-FC BTQ2 Alonso Renault -0.915 Barrichello Brawn GP -0.545 Button Brawn GP -0.449 Trulli Toyota -0.444 Vettel Red Bull 0.003 Webber Red Bull 0.214 Räikkönen Ferrari 0.343 Rosberg Williams 0.352 Hamilton McLaren 0.809 Buemi Toro Rosso 1.480
Teammate battle. Fuel corrected time difference to teammate in the latest comparable qualifying session.
Driver Team Team Battle TB Decider Excuses Buemi Toro Rosso -0.622 Q1 Alonso Renault -0.465 Q1 Alonso had double diffuser, Piquet not Heidfeld BMW -0.441 Q1 Trulli Toyota -0.421 Q2 Rosberg Williams -0.384 Q2 Hamilton McLaren -0.292 Q2 Kovalainen was blocked Vettel Red Bull -0.211 Q3 Räikkönen Ferrari -0.177 Q2 Barrichello Brawn GP -0.096 Q3 Sutil Force India -0.003 Q1 Fisichella Force India 0.003 Q1 Button Brawn GP 0.096 Q3 Massa Ferrari 0.177 Q2 Webber Red Bull 0.211 Q3 Kovalainen McLaren 0.292 Q2 Kovalainen was blocked Nakajima Williams 0.384 Q2 Glock Toyota 0.421 Q2 Kubica BMW 0.441 Q1 Piquet Renault 0.465 Q1 Alonso had double diffuser, Piquet not Bourdais Toro Rosso 0.622 Q1
Time penalties per lap in the first stint compared to the lightest car.
Driver Fuel Penalty Alonso 0.000 Vettel 0.199 Webber 0.270 Sutil 0.313 Rosberg 0.384 Glock 0.426 Kubica 0.625 Button 0.625 Barrichello 0.682 Trulli 0.781 Buemi 1.023 Räikkönen 1.037 Hamilton 1.194 Heidfeld 1.194 Fisichella 1.208 Nakajima 1.299 Massa 1.506 Bourdais 1.506 Kovalainen 1.705 Piquet 1.731
Edit: Adjusted formatting for the new BB.
Edited by ville, 30 April 2009 - 14:41.
#27
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:05
#28
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:09
Doug
#29
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:13
I doubt the Renault designed for KERS would have a bigger fuel tank then the cars without KERS.Originally posted by Youichi
Looking at that chart, can we conclude how big some of the tanks are ?
Presuming if your heavy and out of the top 10, you just declare as much fuel as you can carry, the tanks sizes are :-
BMW 74 kg of fuel
FI 74.5
Williams 77.5
Ferrari 85
STR 85
McLaren 92
Renault 92.9
Redbull, Brawn and Toyota are all runnning under their max fuel.
#30
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:15
Originally posted by djellison
Awesome work Ville - how do you format the text so well with vB?
Doug
using the code tag instead of the quote tag
#31
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:17
Is Brawn smart or these other clowns just make him look good?
#32
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:22
And Vettel.
:
Let's see if they can take an advantage tomorrow.
But Brawn have more room to change their strategy depending on the circumstances. And they have Ross.
#33
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:24
Unless obviously you can guarantee rain on lap 20 in which case yeah whoever stops before that may be handicapped.
#34
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:27
-Brawn hides their pace in Q2. This backs the theory said before.
-Alonso found a second between Q2 and Q3
#35
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:29
I copy the text from spreadsheet, convert tabs to spaces and then use the [code=auto:0] tag (# icon in the vB editor).Originally posted by djellison
Awesome work Ville - how do you format the text so well with vB?
#36
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:30
#37
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:33
#38
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:35
Originally posted by Claudius
Glory lap by Alonso.
And Vettel.
:
Why are people saying that Alonso and Vettel are light but ignoring Webber? He just 2.5kg heavier than his team mate.
Brawn still have the fastest car. Fuel adjusted Rubens would be on pole by .2s.
#39
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:37
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#40
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:44
Why are some of the weights starred? The note on the FIA sheet says these are the 'decalred weights'. Surely all cars have had to declare the weight?
#41
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:44
Originally posted by Galko877
I think Hamilton is a secret favourite - at least for a podium finish. He has a very heavy car but coupled with a not too bad starting position, especially if we consider he is the only one in the Top 10 to have KERS. He could win 4-5 positions at the start already. He is also a good overtaker and has an agressive approach, so this could turn out well for him and McLaren. Of course a lot will depend on the rain and when it comes if it comes.
I think Hamilton isn't a favourite - at least for a podium finish. He has a very heavy car which will screw his softs and coupled with a bad starting position, especially if we consider he is the only one in the Top 10 to have KERS which will be a handicap. He could lose 4-5 positions at the start already. He is also a dangerous overtaker and has a too agressive approach, so this could turn out bad for him and McLaren. Of course a lot will depend on the rain and when it comes if it comes which will screw his high weight situation.
Out of the Alonso, Kimi and Hammo fans I have had to suffer for the last couple of years at least the Kimi fans this year have stayed realistic about things.
#42
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:47
Originally posted by eoin
Why are people saying that Alonso and Vettel are light but ignoring Webber? He just 2.5kg heavier than his team mate.
.
Because they are talking about
1/ Drivers who can finish a race
2/ Drivers who are similar or faster than their teammates
3/ See 1/ and 2/
#43
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:47
Originally posted by smartie_f1
Stupid question:
Why are some of the weights starred? The note on the FIA sheet says these are the 'decalred weights'. Surely all cars have had to declare the weight?
Q3 cars are weighed for real, all others have to report their weight already today.
#44
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:49
Originally posted by cheapracer
Because they are talking about
1/ Drivers who can finish a race
2/ Drivers who are similar or faster than their teammates
3/ See 1/ and 2/
Remind us all how many races Vettel has finished this year?
#45
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:49
Originally posted by smartie_f1
Stupid question:
Why are some of the weights starred? The note on the FIA sheet says these are the 'decalred weights'. Surely all cars have had to declare the weight?
Cars which made into Q3 are fueled to the race levels right after Q2, so the fuel is already there. Other cars don't have physically fuel in the car yet, but the teams declare what the levels will be.
#46
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:51
Originally posted by cheapracer
Because they are talking about
1/ Drivers who can finish a race
2/ Drivers who are similar or faster than their teammates
3/ See 1/ and 2/
#47
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:51
Originally posted by cheapracer
I think Hamilton isn't a favourite - at least for a podium finish. He has a very heavy car which will screw his softs and coupled with a bad starting position, especially if we consider he is the only one in the Top 10 to have KERS which will be a handicap. He could lose 4-5 positions at the start already.
What!!!! Kers helps at the start not disadvantages, Kers will help him ovetake AND defend!
#48
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:53
So what if he has a heavy car? That means he'll most likely be starting on the medium compound.Originally posted by cheapracer
I think Hamilton isn't a favourite - at least for a podium finish. He has a very heavy car which will screw his softs and coupled with a bad starting position, especially if we consider he is the only one in the Top 10 to have KERS which will be a handicap. He could lose 4-5 positions at the start already. He is also a dangerous overtaker and has a too agressive approach, so this could turn out bad for him and McLaren. Of course a lot will depend on the rain and when it comes if it comes which will screw his high weight situation.
Out of the Alonso, Kimi and Hammo fans I have had to suffer for the last couple of years at least the Kimi fans this year have stayed realistic about things.
Handicap? Not at the start, if you haven't noticed, cars with KERS have had better starts than cars without - just look at Alonso in Malaysia...
Dangerous overtaker? What?
You're talking absolute crap. Those with heavier fuel loads will have an ADVANTAGE as weight isn't as big of a handicap in the wet as it is in the dry
Ah Kimi fangirls(yes, even men). The proclaimed fastest man in F1, who's able to crash numerous times and retain that name. Ralistic indeed. Nah, more weird and creepy. I've never seen such zealous worship of someone eating ice cream than I have with Kimi.
I'm not a real fan of any current driver (my heart is still with Schumacher), I just don't like you
#49
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:56
Originally posted by peroa
Q3 cars are weighed for real, all others have to report their weight already today.
Originally posted by wingwalker
Cars which made into Q3 are fueled to the race levels right after Q2, so the fuel is already there. Other cars don't have physically fuel in the car yet, but the teams declare what the levels will be.
Thank you
#50
Posted 18 April 2009 - 11:59
I'm not even a Lewis fan, but I do think he's got a good shot in the race.Originally posted by cheapracer
I think Hamilton isn't a favourite - at least for a podium finish. He has a very heavy car which will screw his softs and coupled with a bad starting position, especially if we consider he is the only one in the Top 10 to have KERS which will be a handicap. He could lose 4-5 positions at the start already. He is also a dangerous overtaker and has a too agressive approach, so this could turn out bad for him and McLaren. Of course a lot will depend on the rain and when it comes if it comes which will screw his high weight situation.
Out of the Alonso, Kimi and Hammo fans I have had to suffer for the last couple of years at least the Kimi fans this year have stayed realistic about things.
Your point about him possibly losing 4 to 5 positions at the start makes no sense. He has KERS while everybody in front of him does not. He could very likely make up a few places this way.
And I keep seeing people say that he's a dangerous overtaker and everything, but the guy seems to make his passes stick with pretty damning frequency, doesn't he? I saw mountains of people claiming that he was going to be the result of all kinds of trouble in Australia when he started from the back, but he seemed to do quite well for himself.
And since when is carrying more weight a bad thing when it rains? If anything, its an advantage because you aren't risking having to come in too early for fuel reasons when you needed to wait a bit longer before changing your type of tire.
Also, why does starting heavy mean he's screwed with the softs? He doesn't have to *start* on softs, you know.
I'm sorry, but I just dont see much sense in your arguments.
Again, I am not a Lewis fan, so I'm not just blindly defending the guy.