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Ross Brawn VS Newey


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#1 Hotwheels

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 12:57

Following today's qualy when Red Bull beat Brawn ( helped greatly bcuz of low fuel ) I thought about the difference in approach between Brawn and Newey. Brawn is on track for a championship with a 3rd team - Benetton / Ferrari and now Brawn , while Newey got Willliams / Mclaren and if this year , had the Double Difffuser been banned , has most likely the fastest car.

Brawn has ALWAYS pushed the limits or read between the lines to exploit the rule, while Newey has always tried to "design" a championship winning car. I personally think the Newey route is better, though of course history shows us that Ross Brawn's route is more successful.

Finally I also hope that due to financial troubles that may hit Brawn in the future ( it is a privateer) and with the Mercedes connection Brawn is hired by Mclaren sooner than later :)

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#2 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:00

Why are you comparing a designer with a technical director?

McLaren would ruin Ross Brawn. Mercedes buying Brawn is preferable.

#3 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:01

I dont understand the question.... :confused:

#4 Anomnader

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:02

I'm not sure you can really compare as the both have different roles, Newey is a brilliant Aerodynamacist whereas I see Ross more as a Technical organiser, unlike Newey he doesn't pen the car himself, but puts the people and procedures in place.

#5 Anomnader

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:03

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
Why are you comparing a designer with a technical director?

McLaren would ruin Ross Brawn. Mercedes buying Brawn is preferable.


How would McLaren ruin Brawn when if he ever worked there it'd be as a replacement for Whitmarsh

#6 Dragonfly

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:08

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
Why are you comparing a designer with a technical director?

McLaren would ruin Ross Brawn. Mercedes buying Brawn is preferable.

Exactly.

#7 Gilles12

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:09

It's historically been Rory Byrne vs Adrian Newey

Not Brawn

#8 Gilles12

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:10

Originally posted by Anomnader


How would McLaren ruin Brawn when if he ever worked there it'd be as a replacement for Whitmarsh


It wouldn't ruin him but it wouldn't get the best out of him

Because Brawn operates best as part of a hierachical management structre

McLaren have long run the matrix system - this would swamp Brawn's leadership skills

#9 Anomnader

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:13

Originally posted by Gilles12


It wouldn't ruin him but it wouldn't get the best out of him

Because Brawn operates best as part of a hierachical management structre

McLaren have long run the matrix system - this would swamp Brawn's leadership skills


Yes, but if Brawn worked there, it could only be as Whitmarshs replacement and if that was so then McLaren would run whatever system Brawn wanted them to run, it would take time probably, much the same as it did at Honda/Brawn.

#10 Gilles12

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:24

Originally posted by Anomnader


Yes, but if Brawn worked there, it could only be as Whitmarshs replacement and if that was so then McLaren would run whatever system Brawn wanted them to run, it would take time probably, much the same as it did at Honda/Brawn.


Hmmm, I don't think so

I doubt Brawn would be given the freedom to change the operating culture of the organisation and even if he was I doubt this is something that would interest him and something that he could achieve in a short space of time, say over a year... certainly longer than at Honda

Plus, what is there for him to achieve at McLaren?

#11 Hotwheels

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:24

Originally posted by Anomnader
I'm not sure you can really compare as the both have different roles, Newey is a brilliant Aerodynamacist whereas I see Ross more as a Technical organiser, unlike Newey he doesn't pen the car himself, but puts the people and procedures in place.


I think Ross Brawn is more that just a techinical director . BTW who is the Aerodynamist in Brawn's team ?

#12 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:30

Originally posted by Anomnader


How would McLaren ruin Brawn when if he ever worked there it'd be as a replacement for Whitmarsh


Because McLaren ruin everything, perhaps? :lol:

Bigois is the Aero Chief at Brawn.

#13 aditya-now

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:50

Originally posted by Gilles12
It's historically been Rory Byrne vs Adrian Newey

Not Brawn


So it is Geoff Willis versus Ross Brawn.

#14 Gilles12

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 13:52

Originally posted by aditya-now


So it is Geoff Willis versus Ross Brawn.


The smart money would be on Brawn every time

#15 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:00

Quite why Ross Brawn is being refered to as Technical Director I don't understand.

Agreed, he used to be a Technical Director, but now, he is Team Owner......hence the name BRAWN GP..... :kiss:

#16 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:04

Originally posted by aditya-now


So it is Geoff Willis versus Ross Brawn.


Not really ...Jorg Zander is Brawn's technical director. Ross is team principal so if you 're comparing RB to Brawn it's Christian Horner vs Ross Brawn

#17 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:07

Originally posted by EthanM


Not really ...Jorg Zander is Brawn's technical director. Ross is team principal so if you 're comparing RB to Brawn it's Christian Horner vs Ross Brawn


Parts of that are not correct either, it is more like "Frank Williams vs Ross Brawn". :wave:

#18 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:09

Originally posted by ForeverF1


Parts of that are not correct either, it is more like "Frank Williams vs Ross Brawn". :wave:


Frank Williams works for Red Bull now? News to me :S

#19 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:11

Originally posted by EthanM


Frank Williams works for Red Bull now? News to me :S


Who said Frank Williams works for Red Bull????

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#20 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:14

Will somebody hurry up and figure out the *correct* question so we can start arguing about it already? Sheesh.

#21 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:16

Originally posted by ForeverF1


Who said Frank Williams works for Red Bull????


Thread compares Red Bull to Brawn and you come up with Frank Williams ... logic dictates that either you fail at reading comprehension or think Frank Williams works for Red Bull, you tell us which of the 2 applies

#22 Burai

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:16

Ross Brawn vs. Godzilla

#23 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:20

Originally posted by EthanM


Thread compares Red Bull to Brawn and you come up with Frank Williams ... logic dictates that either you fail at reading comprehension or think Frank Williams works for Red Bull, you tell us which of the 2 applies


I would suggest that you read further back in the thread, before Red Bull entered the fray. :lol:

#24 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:24

Originally posted by ForeverF1


I would suggest that you read further back in the thread, before Red Bull entered the fray. :lol:


OK are you any medication?

Thread started as Newey vs Brawn ... Newey works for Redbull, you know that right? It's been RB vs Brawn all along and I still don't see where or what Frank has anything to do with this. Care to explain?

#25 ForeverF1

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:31

Originally posted by EthanM


OK are you any medication?

Thread started as Newey vs Brawn ... Newey works for Redbull, you know that right? It's been RB vs Brawn all along and I still don't see where or what Frank has anything to do with this. Care to explain?


The thread changed from comparing designers to Team principals and Tech Directors, I merely stated that Ross Brawn was actually now a team owner in much the same way as Frank Williams is. In the hierarchy of teams, that seems to be the best comparison to me. Savvy? :wave:

#26 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:34

Originally posted by ForeverF1


The thread changed from comparing designers to Team principals and Tech Directors, I merely stated that Ross Brawn was actually now a team owner in much the same way as Frank Williams is. In the hierarchy of teams, that seems to be the best comparison to me. Savvy? :wave:


Hmm no ... it's still as irrelevant to this topic as it was 5 posts ago. Savvy on the relevance issue?

#27 Gilles12

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:35

Then why didn't you mention any of the other team "owners"?

Why Frank Williams?

Did the Geoff Willis connection throw you?

#28 Cplus

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 14:48

what a bloody stupid thread....

#29 BiH

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:00

more like newey vs alonso ;)

#30 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 15:16

Max v A whip?

#31 lustigson

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 18:08

Originally posted by Gilles12
It's historically been Rory Byrne vs Adrian Newey

Which isn't as straightforward as it may seem. They're actually quite evenly matched:

Adrian Newey
March/Leyton House, Williams, McLaren, Red Bull
1988-2008
2,080 points
101 victories
6 WCCs
6 WDCs

Rory Byrne
1981-88, 1991-95, 1997-2006
2,207.5 points
107 victories
7 WCCs
7 WDCs
Toleman/Benetton, Benetton again, Ferrari

#32 Francesc

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 18:12

Alonso is better designer/engineer than all of them, he gives 6 tenths to the car :up:

#33 vmk

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 18:13

Originally posted by ForeverF1
Quite why Ross Brawn is being refered to as Technical Director I don't understand.

Agreed, he used to be a Technical Director, but now, he is Team Owner......hence the name BRAWN GP..... :kiss:


He's more hands on than other team owners so i think he is still TD. The other guy mentioned here (Zander) is junior/2nd/deputy/whatever it's called Technical Director

#34 EthanM

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 18:21

Originally posted by vmk


He's more hands on than other team owners so i think he is still TD. The other guy mentioned here (Zander) is junior/2nd/deputy/whatever it's called Technical Director


Not really Zander designs the cars, it's his job. Used to do it for BMW, then Honda "bought" him and he continued with Brawn.

#35 aditya-now

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 19:09

Originally posted by EthanM


OK are you any medication?


Ethan is emulating Ross Brawn :lol:

#36 aditya-now

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 19:11

Originally posted by lustigson

Which isn't as straightforward as it may seem. They're actually quite evenly matched:

Adrian Newey
March/Leyton House, Williams, McLaren, Red Bull
1988-2008
2,080 points
101 victories
6 WCCs
6 WDCs

Rory Byrne
1981-88, 1991-95, 1997-2006
2,207.5 points
107 victories
7 WCCs
7 WDCs
Toleman/Benetton, Benetton again, Ferrari



That's an interesting resume! Thanks, lustigson.

And, btw, thanks for the Encounter Down Under, excellent reading!

#37 German Tony

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 13:32

Originally posted by Burai
Ross Brawn vs. Godzilla


My money's on Godzilla.

#38 ensign14

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 13:36

Originally posted by German Tony


My money's on Godzilla.

Anyone remember Godzuki? What a ****.

#39 glorius&victorius

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 14:21

Originally posted by TheHumanPromise
I dont understand the question.... :confused:


dont you get it... its "something" to do with Newey and Brawn...

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#40 shonguiz

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 14:26

Is Newey really designing cars ? It sounds strange to me that a TC directly participate in the design process.

#41 RoutariEnjinu

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 14:29

They're both pretty tall?

#42 FEB

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 15:25

Schummy VS Senna?

#43 Barramut

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 16:04

The great rivalry IMO is Newey vs Tombasis.
Newey hired Tombasis from Ferrari after Nicolas left the team for mandatory service at the Greek Army :confused:
After working for one year at McLaren and producing a wonderfull baby, Tombasis left the team bcs he said Newey was castrating his ideas and holding him back.
Since them, I believe there has been a silent dispute among them to see who is the best and I had the impression in Newey's latest interview that he was refering to Tombasis in the phrase "who understands the regulations better".

#44 Garagiste

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 16:21

Originally posted by ensign14

Anyone remember Godzuki? What a ****.


Oh you b@st - I'd quite happily forgotten. Right then, I call your Godzuki and raise you one Scrappy Doo.

#45 ensign14

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 16:26

Originally posted by Garagiste


Oh you b@st - I'd quite happily forgotten. Right then, I call your Godzuki and raise you one Scrappy Doo.

In the Top Trumps of shiteness, Scrappy Doo is the crash card. Other than that dog in The Archies, perhaps. I mean, they even called it Hot Dog. How many millennia of deep thought were needed to conjure up THAT one?

(Veronica was a fox though.)

#46 Al.

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 21:45

Originally posted by Hotwheels
Brawn has ALWAYS pushed the limits or read between the lines to exploit the rule, while Newey has always tried to "design" a championship winning car. I personally think the Newey route is better, though of course history shows us that Ross Brawn's route is more successful.


Pushing the limits of the rules is the goal of most designers, if they don't there's a good chance the result isn't going to win very much.

The interesting thing for me (although I appreciate that Ross is a Team Principle not a TD) is that if successful it will be his fist world championship without Michael Schumacher and Rory Byrne.

Adrian has won WDC with Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve & Hakkinen with Williams and McLaren, Ross did it with a large chunk of the personal following him from Benetton to Ferrari. It was the saying before Ferrari started winnng again that 'if you had Newey, you didn't need Schuey.'

As for pushing the rules, Williams and Newey, pushed the limits on cockpit sides in 1996 (when Ferrari produced the Elizabethan ruff of a cockpit, and I assume Newey was there to oversee (if not to directly conceive) Mcfiddle brakes in 1997/1998.

#47 noikeee

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 22:12

Originally posted by Barramut
The great rivalry IMO is Newey vs Tombasis.
Newey hired Tombasis from Ferrari after Nicolas left the team for mandatory service at the Greek Army :confused:
After working for one year at McLaren and producing a wonderfull baby, Tombasis left the team bcs he said Newey was castrating his ideas and holding him back.
Since them, I believe there has been a silent dispute among them to see who is the best and I had the impression in Newey's latest interview that he was refering to Tombasis in the phrase "who understands the regulations better".


Where's Tombasis right now?

#48 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 22:53

Originally posted by EthanM


OK are you any medication?

Thread started as Newey vs Brawn ... Newey works for Redbull, you know that right? It's been RB vs Brawn all along and I still don't see where or what Frank has anything to do with this. Care to explain?

I have read two topics today so far, and both of them have you starting arguements in them. :down:

#49 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 23:00

Originally posted by paranoik0


Where's Tombasis right now?


Ferrari

#50 EthanM

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 23:07

Tombassis is Byrne's "protege" he got him at Benetton, moved him to Ferrari as the chief aero guy with the Brawn/Byrne group.

The gossip is that his move to McLaren had little do with Newey and a lot to do with Byrne passing the ring to Costa instead of Tombassis.