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Gurney and Vettel


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#1 Vicuna

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 10:09

Is Vettel the first driver to score the maiden F1/GP win for two different teams in winning his first two GPs?

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#2 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:07

And win 2 was in a car that was a follow-up design of the car used for win 1 :lol:

#3 2F-001

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:44

Leaving aside whatever you, or I, may feel about the "newness" (or otherwise) of the teams involved, might the record books consider Jenson Button in this regard?

#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 12:58

No, because when he won for Honda in 2006 they had already won as a constructor several decades prior.

#5 2F-001

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 13:10

Well, yes, obviously - but there would surely be more reason to consider 'Honda' in the days of Ginther (and again with Surtees) as a different team to the recent post-BAR days than it would in the case of Honda and Brawn? Any many seem to be regarding Brawn as "new". And RBR and STR must be more closely related than mid-sixties Honda and 21st century Honda.
I'm just curious as to how the record books might detail it; I don't actually care overmuch, we know how things were! :)

#6 Jeroen Brink

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 15:21

A driver which keeps coming to mind when seeing Vettel is Ronnie. Similar looks and unfazed.

Yet only to some extent as Ronnie Peterson remains uncomparable and is still missed.

#7 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 16:07

Moss scored their maiden F1 wins for Vanwall, Cooper and Lotus didn't he?

DCN

#8 Andretti Fan

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 16:12

Jackie Stewart scored first wins for Matra and Tyrrell.

#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 16:14

But not consecutively, as Vettel has done.

#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 16:18

Big deal...

DCN

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 16:28

But that was one of the cornerstones of the opening post...

#12 Stephen W

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 17:10

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
But that was one of the cornerstones of the opening post...


Correct but it still isn't THAT interesting. :

PS what's Dan Gurney got to do with it? :confused:

#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 17:40

Gurney's first two wins were the first wins each for Porsche and Brabham. Though I'm not 100% sure on the latter.

#14 2F-001

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 18:00

Well - participation isn't compulsory, Stephen!  ;)

No, it isn't a big deal, but I don't imagine Vicuna was pretending it was. Just a mildly interesting bit of trivia, especially when broadened out to embrace marques and teams and 'almosts' (otherwise we get bogged down in what a 'new' team is).

I assume the original question was asking whether Vettel was the first to do this since Gurney, perhaps.
Dan won at Rouen, in the Brabham, didn't he? The same place as his maiden win for Porsche. I don't recall a Brabham win a WDC race prior to that - but someone here will know! (Dan, of course had the maiden win for AAR or Eagle - but not without other wins in between).

#15 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 18:07

Originally posted by Stephen W
PS what's Dan Gurney got to do with it? :confused:

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Gurney's first two wins were the first wins each for Porsche and Brabham. Though I'm not 100% sure on the latter.


In the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs, Dan Gurney did provide Porsche and Brabham with their initial victories. However, I think only Moss has the unique distinction that DCN mentions.

#16 jm70

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 18:34

Dan and the Eagle as well

#17 macoran

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 18:37

Unique...
Moss.....................Vanwall, Cooper and Lotus
Gurney...................Porsche,Brabham and Eagle

#18 2F-001

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 18:38

So doesn't Gurney share that distinction with Moss (ie not necessarily that driver's consecutive wins, but the maiden wins of three different marques)? As well as his first and second wins being the maiden wins of different marques.

Yes, we are in danger of getting horribly bogged down with definition and detail here!
The Stewart (Matra/Tyrrell) and Moss (Cooper/Lotus) examples cited say good things about the teams running them as well, do they not?

Edit:
Ah, brevity beats long-windedness and slow typing!

#19 byrkus

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 19:07

Originally posted by macoran
Unique...
Moss.....................Vanwall, Cooper and Lotus
Gurney...................Porsche,Brabham and Eagle


How about Jackie Stewart... Matra, March and Tyrrell.

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 20:06

:lol: Good spot!

DCN

#21 D-Type

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 21:46

Fangio (almost) : Alfa Romeo (almost), Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Lancia-Ferrari (well ...).
Two plus two halves = three

But of course this is only if you believe the world began at Silverstone in 1950 ;)

#22 RA Historian

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 23:41

Originally posted by D-Type
But of course this is only if you believe the world began at Silverstone in 1950 ;)

Interesting point, a similiarity which exists in the land of the Indy Racing League announcers. Just got done watching the Long Beach race and I do not know how many times I was quite irritated to be informed by Bob Jenkins, Jack Arute, et al, that Will Power was leading only his second ever race (he has three wins), Tony Kanaan is running his 100th such race (he has 193), this was Ganassi Racing's xx race win (they have a lot more) and many other similar annoyances. Obviously, either they believe or have been told to regurgitate that the only US Indy car type racing history exists solely with the IRL and anything that ever happened with AAA, USAC, CART, or Champ Car really never happened at all. Revisionist history at its worst.
Tom

#23 canon1753

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 01:34

Originally posted by RA Historian
Interesting point, a similiarity which exists in the land of the Indy Racing League announcers. Just got done watching the Long Beach race and I do not know how many times I was quite irritated to be informed by Bob Jenkins, Jack Arute, et al, that Will Power was leading only his second ever race (he has three wins), Tony Kanaan is running his 100th such race (he has 193), this was Ganassi Racing's xx race win (they have a lot more) and many other similar annoyances. Obviously, either they believe or have been told to regurgitate that the only US Indy car type racing history exists solely with the IRL and anything that ever happened with AAA, USAC, CART, or Champ Car really never happened at all. Revisionist history at its worst.
Tom


Actually, I think the IRL does own the CART statistics as part of the armistice of last year. That they looked only to IRL stats is kind of interesting or odd and does not reflect the totality of US OW racing history.

We'll see in a few years how the stats get interpreted....

(Oops, I'm totally off topic). :blush:

Though Dan Gurney just recently had a birthday!

#24 TrackDog

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 03:44

Originally posted by RA Historian
Interesting point, a similiarity which exists in the land of the Indy Racing League announcers. Just got done watching the Long Beach race and I do not know how many times I was quite irritated to be informed by Bob Jenkins, Jack Arute, et al, that Will Power was leading only his second ever race (he has three wins), Tony Kanaan is running his 100th such race (he has 193), this was Ganassi Racing's xx race win (they have a lot more) and many other similar annoyances. Obviously, either they believe or have been told to regurgitate that the only US Indy car type racing history exists solely with the IRL and anything that ever happened with AAA, USAC, CART, or Champ Car really never happened at all. Revisionist history at its worst.
Tom


Talk about your revisionist history...

I was at Indy in 1997 when Tom Carnegie began announcing the qualifying speeds as NNNEEEWWW IIIRRRLLL TRRRAAACCCKKK RRREECCOORRDDSS...a desperate attempt to inject some drama and color into speeds that were a full 20 MPH slower than the previous years' efforts; and what made it even more laughable was the fact that the previous years' speeds, which will probably never be topped were, in fact, the REAL IRL TRACK RECORDS!


Dan

#25 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:35

Originally posted by D-Type
Fangio (almost) : Alfa Romeo (almost), Maserati, Mercedes Benz, Lancia-Ferrari (well ...).
Two plus two halves = three

But of course this is only if you believe the world began at Silverstone in 1950 ;)

But Farina was the first to win a WDC race in an Alfa, was he not?

#26 D-Type

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 09:49

Of course he was! - hence the two "almost"s. The trouble is that there isn't a smiley for tongue-in-cheek.

And to carry on further down this slippery slope of dubious statistics how about:
Moss: Vanwall, Cooper, Lotus and ... Ferguson. Well, the Gold Cup was his first Formula 1 start in the Ferguson (I think)

Edit: I forgot Vanwall :o

#27 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:07

Sorry Duncan - I took your first 'almost' to indicate that Alfa had won GP races prior to the advent of the WDC.

#28 David McKinney

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:10

Originally posted by D-Type
Well, the Gold Cup was his first Formula 1 start in the Ferguson (I think)

Depends how you define "start"
The OPGC was the first F1 race in which he and the Ferguson took the start together
But he had previously driven it in the British GP at Aintree, taking over from Fairman and presumably "starting" from the pits :)

#29 ensign14

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:25

Jules Goux? First two Grand Prix wins were, IIRC, Italy 1921 for Ballot and ACF 1926 in that fantastic three-Bugatti race. Obviously he had won Indy to a Grand Prix-esque formula, but strictu sensu does he fit the Vettel Criteria?

#30 fines

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:32

Nah, too old!;)

P.S. I challenge the inclusion of Jackie Stewart, as he won all three races mentioned for one and the same team! Also, Moss may have won the first WC Grand Prix for the Cooper and Lotus marques, but the original post asked for teams, and both races were won for the same team again!

#31 Stephen W

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:41

Originally posted by fines
Nah, too old!;)

P.S. I challenge the inclusion of Jackie Stewart, as he won all three races mentioned for one and the same team! Also, Moss may have won the first WC Grand Prix for the Cooper and Lotus marques, but the original post asked for teams, and both races were won for the same team again!


... and the 2009 Pedant of the Year is .......


:wave:

#32 fines

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:50

:clap: :clap: :clap:

**** PROUD! ****

:D

#33 Valvert

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 14:38

Originally posted by fines
Nah, too old!;)

P.S. I challenge the inclusion of Jackie Stewart, as he won all three races mentioned for one and the same team! Also, Moss may have won the first WC Grand Prix for the Cooper and Lotus marques, but the original post asked for teams, and both races were won for the same team again!


Isn't Red Bull the old Stewart team? That would mean Vettel didn't score the maidenwin of that team.

#34 2F-001

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 14:57

All of the examples we've discussed seem to be subject to some caveat or other, or are in some way not directly comparable to the others. I guess this simply isn't a matter for definitive record.
May be that's no bad thing...  ;)

#35 D-Type

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 15:01

Originally posted by David McKinney

Depends how you define "start"
The OPGC was the first F1 race in which he and the Ferguson took the start together
But he had previously driven it in the British GP at Aintree, taking over from Fairman and presumably "starting" from the pits :)

Since we are (or more correctly I am) in the field of dubious statistics the Lewis Carroll principle applies and words mean what I want them to. :p

A "start" means to come under starter's orders, to be on the grid when the flag was waved or the lights went green. Aintree was his first F1 "race" in the car but it wasn't a "start".

#36 Stephen W

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 15:09

Originally posted by D-Type
A "start" means to come under starter's orders, to be on the grid when the flag was waved or the lights went green. Aintree was his first F1 "race" in the car but it wasn't a "start".


So anyone who is NOT on the grid when the flag was dropped or the lights went green, or for that matter the lights went out, would not have started the race.

Glad you don't write the rules!

:wave:

#37 D-Type

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 15:27

They didn't have pit lane starts in those days so that doesn't come into it. Come to think of it, they didn't have pit lanes or starting lights either so anybody still in the pits would arguably have been "under starter's orders" and flagged away with the rest.

This dubious definition is only to allow the OPGP to be classified as a maiden start to let SCM score a dubious 4.

I'll get my coat.

#38 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 15:49

Red Bull is the fifth team winning its first Grand Prix with a 1-2. Alfa Romeo, Mercedes Benz, Matra and Jordan preceded.

#39 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:00

Brawn too, I guess.

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#40 ensign14

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:08

Originally posted by Pablo Vignone
Red Bull is the fifth team winning its first Grand Prix with a 1-2. Alfa Romeo, Mercedes Benz, Matra and Jordan preceded.

Plus Ballot and Bugatti. ;)

#41 Stephen W

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:25

Originally posted by Vicuna
Is Vettel the first driver to score the maiden F1/GP win for two different teams in winning his first two GPs?


Are you counting them as different teams when the name changes?

:confused:

#42 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:25

And of course Mercedes-Benz had a 1-2-3 in 1908. (I know, I know - I'll get my coat).

#43 2F-001

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:30

Well, if we're looking for marques whose first GP-winning race also brought them a second place (post 38 and on)... might we also consider Sunbeam, Delage, Ferrari and Talbot? And perhaps Benz too, for the American Grand Prize event of 1910?
(I'm assuming we should consider Mercedes, Benz and Mercedes-Benz as separate marques? Otherwise MB wouldn't qualify, would they?)

#44 2F-001

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:42

Originally posted by Stephen W

Are you counting them as different teams when the name changes?
:confused:

In the two examples indicated by the original post (Vettel and Gurney) they were clearly different teams, despite the linked origins of the RBR and STR machines. In most of the other cases we've all raised, some explanation is required... or we're talking marques... or we moved on to different kinds of achievement. I think we've seen that few of these achievements are unique, and did arise from a variety of circumstances.

#45 canon1753

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 16:54

Originally posted by Tim Murray
And of course Mercedes-Benz had a 1-2-3 in 1908. (I know, I know - I'll get my coat).


No. Mercedes had a 1-2-3 in 1908. They merged with Benz in the late '20s....

My entry in the pedantic sweepstates.

#46 2F-001

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 17:03

Originally posted by canon1753

No. Mercedes had a 1-2-3 in 1908...

Not according to Mathieson... first and fifth, I think.
I think Tim's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, since Benz are recorded as being second and third.

#47 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 17:46

Originally posted by 2F-001
I think Tim's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, since Benz are recorded as being second and third.

Indeed so. Thanks, Tony. :up:

#48 canon1753

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 18:57

Originally posted by 2F-001

Not according to Mathieson... first and fifth, I think.
I think Tim's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, since Benz are recorded as being second and third.


I stand corrected. Thanks! ;)

#49 RA Historian

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 19:49

Originally posted by Stephen W
So anyone who is NOT on the grid when the flag was dropped or the lights went green, or for that matter the lights went out, would not have started the race.

Which of course brings up the subject of Niki Lauda at the Nurburgring in 1976. A few years ago Niki was told that according the the recently revised stats (is that an oxymoron?) he never participated in the 76 German GP since it was red flagged on the first lap and restarted, the restart now being the official race start. Niki's reply: "Then where the F*** is my ear??"
Tom

#50 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:46

Originally posted by RA Historian
Which of course brings up the subject of Niki Lauda at the Nurburgring in 1976. A few years ago Niki was told that according the the recently revised stats (is that an oxymoron?) he never participated in the 76 German GP since it was red flagged on the first lap and restarted, the restart now being the official race start. Niki's reply: "Then where the F*** is my ear??"
Tom


Which only goes to show once more the sort of incredible silly nonsense that happens when "statistics" becomes the focus and not the events themselves.