219 replies to this topic

[pacificquay]

Possibly missed among all the budget cap debate - confirmation of the ban on refuelling from 2010.

Very good news, this, in my opinion.

Means the drivers will have to adapt to the car's handling changing as the fuel comes down from a full load to light.

Excellent stuff.

[wrighty]

Never mind that, there's going to be some interesting looking cars next year as the teams strive to fit the KERS package AND a fuel tank large enough to last the full distance.........

[Clatter]

Possibly missed among all the budget cap debate - confirmation of the ban on refuelling from 2010.

Very good news, this, in my opinion.

Means the drivers will have to adapt to the car's handling changing as the fuel comes down from a full load to light.

Excellent stuff.

It's good news as long as there is not a sidenote to shorten the race.

[Lifew12]

It's good news as long as there is not a sidenote to shorten the race.

That was a FOTA proposal, so there's no chance of it happening until about 2012, when everybody has forgotten it was FOTA proposal, and Max puts it forward as his own.

[Mox]

Possibly missed among all the budget cap debate - confirmation of the ban on refuelling from 2010.

Very good news, this, in my opinion.

Means the drivers will have to adapt to the car's handling changing as the fuel comes down from a full load to light.

Excellent stuff.

I tend to agree ... Now add "2 sets of tyres per race, max - 1 prime, 1 option, no markings - you Q3 on what you start your race on", and we have ourselves som racing!

[Buttoneer]

Something will surely have to give with the competing pressures of the KERS weight, the additional fuel and the need to lean out the engine somewhere. I don't suppose they have increased minimum weight too have they? That seems to be the only way to avoid a horrendous compromise.

In many ways, this rules change is as significant as the aero stuff this year.

[Orin]

Looking forward to this rule change.

[dank]

Presumably they'll qualify without race fuel on board?

[tkulla]

Agreed. I started watching F1 in the late 80s and never liked refueling when it was introduced.

Now there will be much less reliance on passing a car "in the pits" and a greater variation of strategy (setting up a car for light tanks vs. heavy tanks, number of tire stops).

It will be interesting to see which drivers cope with a very heavy car the best.

Edited by tkulla, 30 April 2009 - 11:55.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Never mind that, there's going to be some interesting looking cars next year as the teams strive to fit the KERS package AND a fuel tank large enough to last the full distance.........

As well as the relative design freedom of the budget capped teams.

[Guizotia]

So will there still be pit stops and two tyre types used per race?

[Lifew12]

Something will surely have to give with the competing pressures of the KERS weight,

KERS will be quietly dropped.

[johnap]

I tend to agree ... Now add "2 sets of tyres per race, max - 1 prime, 1 option, no markings - you Q3 on what you start your race on", and we have ourselves som eracing!

That I like the sound of

[Mauseri]

Presumably they'll qualify without race fuel on board?

I hope so. If not, differences in preferred fuel loads might still cause some strategical mixing. If you know you can qualify on pole, you can take less fuel as you dont need to push so hard in the race.

[secessionman]

Agreed. I started watching F1 in the late 80s and never liked refueling when it was introduced.

Was it not Brabham in 1982 that introduced the concept of refuelling?

[Hyatt]

refuel-ban ... i dont know, can understand why, but i like the spectacle ...
but banning tyre-warmers? why? the teams already have them and they dont look like they are responsible for tranportation-costs ...

[Clatter]

refuel-ban ... i dont know, can understand why, but i like the spectacle ...
but banning tyre-warmers? why? the teams already have them and they dont look like they are responsible for tranportation-costs ...

What spectacle? It's only of interest when it goes wrong.

[Matt Somers]

I have to say I see both sides of the argument however I like that strategy can play a hand in winning a race, I liked being able to try and work out who was running what strategy. I'm with all the others asking the question about weight too, will they increase the weight allowed due to the fuel loads and KERS packages or will they have a total shake up to level the driver weight argument too?

[Blythy]

refuel ban I agree with, pit stop overtakes will happen, but refuel ban sounds better, plus, it'll be safer.

[pacificquay]

They don't need to change the weight limit because of fuel - fuel doesn't count as part of the weight.

[Madras]

I'm with all the others asking the question about weight too, will they increase the weight allowed due to the fuel loads and KERS packages or will they have a total shake up to level the driver weight argument too?

Why would they increase the weight allowed due to fuel loads? Fuel loads have always been on top of the weight allowed.

[BootLace]

Never been a fan of refuelling myself, really disliked that cars would go into the pits and come out slower because of the extra weight, and that time stationary was dictated by the rate of flow of fuel rather than the competence of the pit crew.

4 second super stops and 1 second+ better lap times on fresh rubber, here's hoping *crosses fingers*

[Matt Somers]

Think about tank sizes and the components that fit to it.... I worded my post incorrectly. I know these components weigh little but in a world where every G counts it will.

[werks prototype]

Isn't this another example of the continued 'dumbing down' of F1. F1 Lite.

Excluding accidents I can't see why the grid positions will not in most cases determine the race results under this system. I don't buy the significance of the tyre change/usage if all the teams weigh the same. It seems to me to be a way by the authorities of gaining further control over a race, to finally iron out and eradicate that ungovernable random 'out of cockpit' human element (not accidents during refuelling) that can make results unpredictable via the various flexible in-race strategies that can often be employed by the teams on the fly (depending on their initial fuel load/qualification position).

Racing by numbers!

Edited by werks prototype, 30 April 2009 - 12:28.

[HP]

Mixed feelings about this. If the season develops like the Bahrain race, with little overtaking, we'll see even less overtaking.

Racing will mainly be about tire and fuel management. Pitstops will vary, expect when it starts raining or the tracks starts to dry out. And in extremes we'll see cars running out of fuel on the last lap.

Cars will have to be changed significantly to hold enough fuel.

I think Alain Prost will be in demand again

[Keith68]

My guess its been done to level the playing field for the start of next year.

Everyone now has to make fundamental changes to this years cars to meet next years standards, so the development gap between existing teams and new teams is artificially narrowed.

[HP]

I hope so. If not, differences in preferred fuel loads might still cause some strategical mixing. If you know you can qualify on pole, you can take less fuel as you dont need to push so hard in the race.

Maybe it's better that everybody has to take on the same amount of fuel.

[Owen]

I'm actually quite pleased about this.

[Blythy]

the great thing about 1 tank, is that everyone gets faster as the race continues (if they have the fuel), so people might be less inclined to "hold out for third"

[ATM_Andy]

It's, very roughly, 195kg of fuel.

[D A]

I wonder if the requirement to run on both tyres will remain for next year? If it does remain refueling ban will be pretty much pointless.

I've also got a bad feeling that we'll get shorter races because of this ban.

[Chezrome]

More suprises during qualifying, during racing, less suprises in the endresult. That's what I think. Sometimes a lesser team will qualify high, and then fade away during the race.

On Monaco however...

[Odvan]

It will be interesting to see which drivers cope with a very heavy car the best.

Which will get best car i suppose.

[stormshadow]

Isn't this another example of the continued 'dumbing down' of F1. F1 Lite.

Excluding accidents I can't see why the grid positions will not in most cases determine the race results under this system. I don't buy the significance of the tyre change/usage if all the teams weigh the same. It seems to me to be a way by the authorities of gaining further control over a race, to finally iron out and eradicate that ungovernable random 'out of cockpit' human element (not accidents during refuelling) that can make results unpredictable via the various flexible in-race strategies that can often be employed by the teams on the fly (depending on their initial fuel load/qualification position).

Racing by numbers!

Exactly!
Someone spoke of variation in strategy. What variation is strategy? All the cars will have to start on the same fuel load needed to finish the race!
Sure i can imagine the Monaco GP now! lots and lots of overtaking on track!!! Only an idiot wouldnt put money on the pole sitter too win. Folks expecting racing to get back to pre-'94 levels must be in la la land. While we're at it lets get rid of the pitlane and everything in it.

[primer]

[engel]

I don't get why people are so excited about this ... personally I think it will lead to endless processional races, at least now with refueling you have the element of different strategies to mix everything up.

F1 isn't the same as it was in the 70s/80s ... it's far more precise now

[AFCA]

Whitmarsh: ''Next year refuelling will be banned and the tanks will be 15 or 16 centimetres longer. The regulations may not change in an extreme way but the influence this has on the car is enormous anyhow.''

[Tenmantaylor]

Presumably they'll qualify without race fuel on board?

Surely. Qual with race fuel only makes sense (slightly) if the fuel strategy affects qual performance. With same fuel loads its pointless, everyone running on fumes again

3 qual period could still work well.

[Madras]

Think about tank sizes and the components that fit to it.... I worded my post incorrectly. I know these components weigh little but in a world where every G counts it will.

The tanks don't weight that much. made from composite materials, very light. Nothing like KERS batteries.

[German Tony]

All this mean is the the tems will start the race on the harder tyres, do about 25% of the race & change to another set of hard tyres leaving the soft option for the last 40% or so. The point being it will be as boring a s hell 'cos the will all be doing it & a damn sight more dangerous in the pitlane as they will all be doing it at the same time.

Then add 3 new teams who need extra space in already cramped areas ( & who don't have the cash as a result of being budget-capped to train their pitlane people properly) & watch the accident happen.

Ok, you could argue that less refuelling = less chance of an accident so it balences But but surely it's only worth changing if the safety factor increases?

This seems to be more about the expense of humping FIA approved re-fuelling devices around the planet than anything else. Guess who pays for that.

[FA and RK fan]

No refueling and free engine development
It is all about efficiency now. It should have been like that from the start.

[Matt Somers]

The tanks don't weight that much. made from composite materials, very light. Nothing like KERS batteries.

I know Madras I'm just saying weight is weight and distribution of weight as we know is a huge factor, so how tanks are designed/placed could be a factor.

[Mauseri]

Mixed feelings about this. If the season develops like the Bahrain race, with little overtaking, we'll see even less overtaking.

Racing will mainly be about tire and fuel management. Pitstops will vary, expect when it starts raining or the tracks starts to dry out. And in extremes we'll see cars running out of fuel on the last lap.

Cars will have to be changed significantly to hold enough fuel.

I think Alain Prost will be in demand again

I think there could be more overtaking. Everyone will be on same fuel so that doesnt help, but it's how the nature of race changes. If you go in pits you may drop behind slow cars. Compared to past, those slow cars will not have less fuel anymore, and you have fresh tyres. Overtaking them will be easier and more important I think.

In the last 10 years it often was the refueled car coming out of pits ruining the races of those slow cars. Next year it will be different, the work load will be on the fast car, this should make some overtaking.

Edited by micra_k10, 30 April 2009 - 13:09.

[dentistTubster]

I think there could be more overtaking. Everyone will be on same fuel so that doesnt help, but it's how the nature of race changes. If you go in pits you may drop behind slow cars. Compared to past, those slow cars will not have less fuel anymore, and you have fresh tyres. Overtaking them will be easier and more important I think.

In the last 10 years it often was the refueled car coming out of pits ruining the races of those slow cars. Next year it will be different, the work load will be on the fast car, this should make some overtaking.

If we get rid of the "must use 2 sets per race" and make it possible for the harder tyres to last the distance, then it may become interesting - do you take the risk of trying to last out the whole race or take a couple of stops with the softer tyres and hope you are faster? If the split in the grid is 50/50 then we will see lots of overtaking.

[Atreiu]

Okay, no refueling seems good.

[Tuxy]

I like it.

Teams will have to develop their cars to be more fuel efficient. Well, I guess it depends if the teams can install a big enough fuel tank to carry as much fuel as necessary.

I don't like the ban on tire warmers though. Doesn't the safety concern out-weight cost savings?

[Neophiliac]

Good news all in all.

This should also work out well for KERS. For about 2/3 of the race it will have less impact on car's balance than it does now as it'll be a lower percentage of the car's weight.

[senna da silva]

Excellent news. I've never been a fan of refueling. Has there been any indication on how this will affect the Qualifying format, specifically Q3?

[1fastSS]

I'm sorry to be such a ****** but,. What would be the point? To take out any element of surprise at all.

Edited by 1fastSS, 30 April 2009 - 13:59.

[V8 Fireworks]

4 second super stops and 1 second+ better lap times on fresh rubber, here's hoping *crosses fingers*

It must be said F1 is the LEAST competent at tyre changes.

In Champcar or Indycar ONE person changes the tyre in 3 seconds, in F1 three people (or more!) change the tyre in 3 seconds. There is no comparison, the IRL pit crew is MUCH more skilful.

Plus, in the IRL all the air guns and wheels are neatly packed away behind the wall as the car leaves the pit box!

Same cannot be said for the mess left out on pit road by the F1 teams with their fixed air guns that dangle from the overhead gantry all race, blocking the clear exit of other drivers from their own pits.