101 replies to this topic

[Jim Thurman]

This one for those who have provided written contributions for publications.

I have been struggling with this aspect and it is hindering me.

It seems the subjects I am most interested in writing about are the most difficult to find photos to accompany.

And to find the several good color photos needed to accompany magazine articles?...

Any suggestions? Comments and discussion would be welcome and appreciated...or please contact me via e-mail or pm.

Thanks.

[David McKinney]

In my experience it's the biggest problem
Depending on your subject, there are probably two or three archives which could help
But to pay their reproduction rates would probably cost you more than any payment you might receive for the article.
If your driving force is to see the article published, rather than make money, you will likely end up losing money...

Edited by David McKinney, 03 May 2009 - 06:09.

[Ted Walker]

As David knows,some photo archives are more reasonable on their prices than others.I for instance make no charge if the article is for a "club magazine",and I know that Doug also has similar feelings(I hope)

[john winfield]

Jim,
I was lucky enough to have a few uncommissioned motor sport articles published a few years ago by titles in the Haymarket group. I agreed (was told!) a flat rate per article, with the magazine providing all accompanying photographs for free, from its own archive (LAT?).

Is it practical to target your articles first at titles that have easy access to / sit within the same publishing group as good photographic archives?

[Bjorn Kjer]

After reading and asking about copyrights on the TNF , my enthusiasm for writing was much hampered and quite damped. I did however do some writing WITH pictures on the 8W about transporters. I believe to write or describe , pictures are needed and in my case most were of different copyrightholders. So , a lot of writing back and forth was needed , but in the end all people involved was kind and allowed me to use their pictures. But as McKinney says it much depends............

[Doug Nye]

Ted is quite right - we will normally allow our GP Library photos to be used free for club publications - apart from one or two of the huge clubs which are run on a strictly commercial basis. Neither occasionally do we mind - as I hope you might have noticed - sharing low-resolution pix on the Internet if they serve to illuminate, inform or entertain. When it comes to commercial publication in magazines or books (or serious exhibition use) we - like Ted - will always 'do a deal' but for serious publishers and publications, seeking to generate serious profit, proper commercial rates apply.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 03 May 2009 - 19:53.

[Gary C]

I'm quite 'pliable' for rates of my stills and movie film collection - just ask!

[Odseybod]

Suppose I'm duty-bound to say that the Classic Cars archive is also worth a try and is also flexible on price, according to proposed usage. Random predations under previous changes of ownership means I can't tell you precisely what's there, as it still manages to surprise (and disappoint!) me after 4+ years of looking after it. But there is still gold in them thar box files ...

[bradbury west]

Slightly OT. I am reliably informed by LAT that for small run, private publications they offer generous rates. Usual disclaimer
Roger Lund

[buckaluck]

Hi Jim not sure what pictures you need but i've shot races here in the US in northern california for many years and have quite a few pics from vintage races.
I'm an ontrack photographer so lots of good shots. If i have what you need I only ask for a photo credit and a hard copy of the magazine for my records.

Thanks

Mike

[fbarrett]

Friends:

Another excellent source of low-cost or free photos are the archives and PR departments of auto manufacturers. I have direct and extensive experience with Mercedes-Benz, which (over the past 15 years) has made hundreds of thousands of historic photos available as high-res files online to genuine writers and publishers. Porsche has come a long way, too. Of course, you've got to be able to show that you're genuine...

Frank

Edited by fbarrett, 03 May 2009 - 18:49.

[RA Historian]

Fortunately for most articles except race reports I have been able to tap my own archive of some 31,000 images, about 50% from Road America, the rest Mid Ohio, Milwaukee, and some 20 other tracks or so. Makes it much easier!

Regarding the posting of images on TNF, Jerry Entin has been so kind as to post a number of mine over the past two or three years. I do not mind that, but I have discovered that occasionally one gets lifted by somebody for unauthorized use, even though I do have them copyrighted. I even had one offered back to me last year by someone who was seeking more info about the car. He was surprised when I informed him that I had taken it originally...

Tom

[klemcoll]

We follow the same principles and policies as outlined by Doug Nye in his post. We are also happy to work with authors in supplying large quantities of low res scans for selection of appropriate images for their work. Finally, we supply a listing of the events we cover on our website for download at www.klemcoll.com/Downloads.

[Pete Lyons]

While I'm a cost-sensitive person myself and have sympathy with those who may feel that historic photographs can seem overpriced, I would ask them to consider this equation:

To purchase a roll of film and have it processed, the last time I did so the cost per exposure was approximately 50 cents;

To cull out only the best quality, most useful exposures at a (possible but very high) success rate of 50 percent, the price of each good shot goes to...you can do the math;

To spend years of your life in cramped airplanes and uncomfortable road vehicles and seedy motels and/or friends' vacant sofas, exposing yourself and your own personal camera equipment to rain and wind and sun, tramping around racetracks, lugging your gear, thinking hard about your photography and how to do it better next time...well, I'm not saying I didn't love it, but dammit it was work;

To store and retain all those bits of film through numerous moves of residence, keeping them dry and light-fast despite flooded basements and fires in the nearby forest, is it fair to value that at another dollar per image per year? Through, say, 40 years?

To one day go through all those cardboard boxes and paper bags, pull out all those rolls of negs and sheets of slides, identify and sort and label and properly refile them so you can go back and find them again on demand, what would you say is a reasonable price per image for such labor?

Upon receiving an inquiry, to revisit the archive, locate and pull out all the images that could answer the request, bend over the light table evaluating them, then take the most promising to the workstation, operate the scanner, open the new digital images on the computer, examine and—to the extent possible—correct them for issues of focus, exposure, color, dust, scratches, framing, etc., then prepare thumbnails of the best images to send to the client for evaluation, await a response... how much would you ask to be paid?

And, when the prospective client complains about your prices, to not retort—as a crusty colleague tells me he does—"If you don't think that's fair, then you go down to the airport and you buy a ticket back to 1969 and you take the picture yourself."

Having such self restraint...priceless.

However, visiting www.petelyons.com to see all our pretty pictures...well, that is perfectly free.
You'll be warmly welcomed.

Edited by Pete Lyons, 03 May 2009 - 22:32.

[fbarrett]

Pete:

Great Response!

I started shooting cars in 1960 and have since managed to keep tens of thousands of negs and transparencies safe and almost organized. At least these days we don't have to spend hours in a darkroom developing the film and making prints. I loved it--damn near flunked out of college doing it--and I think the results, at least the b&w, were much better than what we see today. I look at my 40-year old prints with a little pride. I also keep telling myself I'll shoot more film and set up the old Beseler again, but so far it hasn't happened.

Pete, you didn't say it, but there's also the unpleasant "rip-off" experience, whereby after all that work, your photos are stolen by some lowlife slug, be it an unscrupluous photographer, a cost-cutting publisher, or an "ignorat of copyright law and common courtesy" internet type. Still, I hope to have time soon to dig out some of that old stuff and make it available, here or elsewhere. Otherwise, it'll all be lost. Right now I'm trying to find the negs of 1950s/1960s Porsche photographer Charles Justus Wick. I started a TNF thread but got no responses. I hope his work is safe somewhere. If any of you know anything...

Frank

[RStock]

Pete, you didn't say it, but there's also the unpleasant "rip-off" experience, whereby after all that work, your photos are stolen by some lowlife slug, be it an unscrupluous photographer, a cost-cutting publisher, or an "ignorat of copyright law and common courtesy" internet type. Frank

Well , I must confess to being one of those ignorant low-life internet slugs . Myself and another fellow have a website where we have used many photo's , all obtained from the internet . We are both total amatures with no training or experience in these matters . What we do , we do so for our own amusement in an attempt to learn more about the history of F1/Gp racing . We make no money nor intend to make any from our endevor .

It was something started on a whim , we would find these photo's and post them on a message board , with a story to go with them sometimes , and it blossomed from there . We've only more recently became aware and concerned of copyright issues . A problem was we had found these photo's a long while back , saving them on a private personal account , and had no idea of their original origin .

We debated about what to do , possibly even deleting the site entirely , but decided since we were a non-profit endevor , we would include a disclaimer and take a wait and see approach . So far , I've only received one complaint , and that person was very kind and understanding of our ignorance and intent (I'm still waiting to hear back from him) . I will include a link to the page at the end , if anyone sees any of their photo's (and there are a lot of them) , please accept our apology for their unauthorized use . And please contact me , we will be glad to either remove the photo or give credit as due .

http://www.f1-grandprixhistory.net/

[Jerry Entin]

It is always possible to find photographic material, although sometimes it comes at a price that eliminated much of the financial rewards of writing a magazine article.

What is much more frustrating is HAVING photos of a specific event, as well as a race program with a comprehensive entry list, but no period race reports.

The September 29, 1957 Fort Sumner Regional in New Mexico is a case in point. The event was not covered by any of the national car magazines. The SCCA magazine deemed it unworthy too.

My last-ditch efforts of contacting the Albuquerque and Fort Sumner libraries turned out in vain as well. None of the three local newspapers that could have covered the event did so, in spite of four [!] pre announcements leading up to the race in the Fort Sumner paper.

Above: thoughts of Willem Oosthoek.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 04 May 2009 - 00:15.

[bradbury west]

O/T a little. As an interested observer, and subscriber over here to Vintage Racecar from over there, I am always delighted to see the constant supply of period shots used via Klemcoll, Pete Lyons, and Art Evans, plus the seemingly endless supply of private archive photos related to the other articles. Klemcoll always spoils the reader with a double page spread, this month's being a wonderful shot of Seaman at Donington in 1938, almost worth the subscription itself, but don't tell Ed McDonough.

On a more serious note, expanding on Pete Lyons' points, they become even more critical for anyone who has had the presence of mind to BUY an archive. Business is business. You would not buy a car then lend it to a stranger to use free of charge.

This is why we are so fortunate to have the postings of Jerry Entin, DCN, Graham Gauld, the Antipodean brigade etc etc for the old stuff, and the generosity of TNFers for modern events especially Luc Ghys, plus others.

usual disclaimers
Roger Lund

[Doug Nye]

..well, I'm not saying I didn't love it, but dammit it was work;

Hey Pete! So good to see you here. Do stay and share your knowledge with this community - it's something really rather special.

Regarding your admission above, I still remember you standing by the Targa Florio roadside - just below the heights at Caltavuturo - at about midnight - whooping at the starlit sky and across the yawning valley far below - and bawling "Isn't this motor racing life JUST GREAT!!!!".

I also remember you insisting I should drive your Chevy back to the hotel near Jarama, and yr fthfl srvnt promptly diving the wrong side of a traffic island and meeting traffic head-on; the classic drive-on-the-right/drive-on-the-left mind-in-neutral balls-up.

I know I apologised then. I'd just like to do so right now, in print.

All the very best...

DCN

[Tim Murray]

Sometimes I really do feel that I've died and gone to heaven, in being privileged to share the memories of people who have given me so much pleasure over the years such as DCN, Pete Lyons and so many others here. Long may it continue!!

Edited by Tim Murray, 05 May 2009 - 22:42.

[Pete Lyons]

"whooping at the starlit sky..."

I was whooping? We must've been imbibing some Sicilian red atop the mountain that night. But you less than me, 'cause you remember...

Thanks, Doug, both for the memory and the kind word. I do indeed remember that great race, great place and great time.
That car was my brand new 1973 Stingray Corvette, small-block engine, 4-speed, manual steering—you could specify that then—with the two-piece removable Targa top and painted, of course, Targa Red. And the Targa was its second race. Not the first, because enroute from the dock in Rotterdam, the weekend before I'd stopped in at the Spa 1000K. Then I did a fabulous, ever faster break-in run over the Alps and down the whole length of Italy and west across Sicily on roads I remember as being nearly empty of traffic. I came to love that car. I came to think of her as my mistress. I called her Mlle Vette. I miss her still.

I was so incredibly fortunate to catch in person the very last few years of the era that had kindled, through words and pictures, my initial enthusiasm for motor racing. Especially the words of dear old Jenks.
I often wonder if, were I at that age now and presented with what now passes for motor racing—and motor racing media coverage—would I take any notice?
A Goodwood Revival fix, that would do it.

Cheers! More Sicilian red!

Edited by Pete Lyons, 06 May 2009 - 17:41.

[Gary C]

nice photo, Pete !!

[RA Historian]

Although the last time I saw Pete he no longer had the sphynx-like 'do!
Tom

[Ray Bell]

When doing articles on subjects from the thirties, forties and fifties, I've frequently had problems coming up with pics...

But perseverence has always paid off.

The article I did on the Woody Point circuit, for instance, could only have been done because I first wrote a letter to the local (free) suburban newspaper. In that I asked if anyone had recollections, photos etc of the event which took place in 1936.

I had two responses, one from a man who gave me the name of someone who used to live next door to him and who had told him about the day they raced past his front door... and the other a phone call from the Brisbane ABC (National Broadcaster) radio station.

"We've seen your letter and think this might be something we could put over on our segment we have each Wednesday," I was told. "Can we call you at about a quarter to six on Wednesday morning, we'll give you five minutes to talk about what you're looking for?"

So I did. From that I got four responses. One was from the owner of a bit of movie, a brief clip that had been made into a personal newsreel showing the cars starting in the event and a bit of them running through a couple of corners.

The second was from a man whose father had been a competitor, he was able to give me a number of names and a bit of an outline on the history of the event that I hadn't known.

The third was a competitor. "I wasn't the driver, mind you," he told me, "I was what we called the riding mechanic in those days for Charlie Coward in his big Chrysler Windsor straight eight roadster..." Again, a most worthwhile contact and a lovely guy who, at 84, had just finished putting together a Westfield with a 20-valve Toyota engine.

Finally came a call from someone with colour 8mm movie of the start of the 1949 Australian Grand Prix at Leyburn in 1949. This race had also been mentioned in my phone conversation and we were able to get hold of this film and get it transposed to DVD for the 50th anniversary celebrations at Leyburn later that year... oh, yes, this all happened some time ago.

From the son of the competitor I was able to chase down another competitor, a former accountant who was just delighted that someone was interested in what they used to do in his youth.

The photos? Oh yes, they came from this man. Not directly, however. "There was a photographer who went to all these events those days," he began. "His name had four letters, let me think. That's right, it was Beak... and he had a strange first name. Loder Beak, that was his name."

From that I found Loder Beak's son and a pile of about 80 photos, about a dozen of which were from the event in question.

And in all the melee I was able to ascertain the actual path of the circuit on the local streets, which you would think would be easy with two competitors contacted. But one couldn't recall at all and the other only had fragmentary recollection.

Eventually, with the help of the movie and the stills, I was able to piece it together, coming to the surprise revelation that one intersection was entered twice a lap from opposite directions, with cars turning left as they faced each other!

[Direct Drive]

Pete, how good to see you and our best to your wonderful wife too.
For all photo searchers, I'll second most of what Mr. Lyons says. We photojournalists did the work for love and passion only petrol (and propeller heads and cycle heads and...and...and) heads can imagine. But walk around Mosport in the rain and cold, carrying somewhat (more than today!) waterproof film cameras, 25 lb 600mm lenses, slipping, sliding, cursing at pretentious officials and then having to actually choose a film, a shutter speed and aperture, and really learn "follow-focus" was damned hard work.
Now fellows like DCN, Pete, Pete Biro, myself, Jesse Alexander and others are oppressed with rooms, basements, garages full of mis-edited material and tons of it! We have to re-edit, of course, no easy feat in our slow years with many memories and incidents slowing the process and START OVER with scans, prints, www site construction and the like.
It was a great life, and probably couldn't begin to be replicated today, but we all feel that if our work then had merit, then it also now has value.
One of the sad realities of modern photography is most folks with access, auto-everything digital cameras can do pretty damn well with not much investment in education, equipment, knowledge, experience and most importantly race-craft!
It was my pleasure and honor to work with Pete, race against him on occasion and count he and his wife as our friends.
And Doug, for your British outlook, a Corvette is not a "Chevy!"

David Hutson
Kansas City, MO USA

Edited by Direct Drive, 07 May 2009 - 03:43.

[kevthedrummer]

Regarding the previous post by David, I can vouch for his fantastic collection of pictures and his willingness to help out. He proved invaluable to me recently when writing an article about Jim Crawford, hunting out rare pictures and providing some fantastic stories. I'm sure David won't mind me saying that his B&W archive from the 1960s-90s is available, with LAT owning his colour archive. A great photographer and a great guy

Edited by kevthedrummer, 07 May 2009 - 11:46.

[Arturo Pereira]

Sometimes I really do feel that I've died and gone to heaven, in being privileged to share the memories of people who have given me so much pleasure over the years such as DCN, Pete Lyons and so many others here. Long may it continue!!

Can´t say it better !!

[PCC]

Can´t say it better !!

Agree completely. Indeed, with David Hutson and Pete Lyons joining TNF within a few weeks of each other, I drool at the prospect of what we may see and hear in the months to come....

[Voodoo Bob]

"If you don't think that's fair, then you go down to the airport and you buy a ticket back to 1969 and you take the picture yourself."

Hi, Pete! You made me laugh out loud with that one. Good to see you here. Woody told me about this place, so I figured I'd check it out. The number of people here with WAY more knowledge than I is somewhat intimidating, but maybe I can learn something if I pay attention.

Edited by Voodoo Bob, 10 May 2009 - 21:43.

[Doug Nye]

[quote name='Direct Drive' date='May 7 2009, 04:21' post='3625973']

And Doug, for your British outlook, a Corvette is not a "Chevy!"

David Hutson
Kansas City, MO USA

Whoops! Sorry David, from my cheerfully British outlook in fact, the Chevy was just another uncultured chunk of Yank junk, but let's not split hairs here. Pete obviously adored it, so that was good enough for me. I was just mortally embarrassed about nearly writing it off!

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 10 May 2009 - 21:35.

[Direct Drive]

DCN:
No worries, Doug, we don't mind split hairs!
"Whooping at the starlit sky" would be a wonderful title for something or other. Maybe a collection of short stories or speculative fiction?
I nearly crashed a Wolseley, whatever the hell fine piece of English engineering that might have been, in 1974 on the way to Snetterton while following the Merlyn transporter. We had to bleed the brakes immediately when the pedal went to the floor 3 pumps and we'd missed that. If one waited for the 4th pump ... NO BRAKES!
Keep up the fine work, and next time you're over, drive our ZO-6 if you dare.
David (and Noah, the big jeweled racing one, who'll inherit the 'Vette when he grows some hair to split !)

Edited by Direct Drive, 10 May 2009 - 23:09.

[Ruairidh]

Welcome Pete. As another who grew up reading your race reports, you are more than welcome here.

And David, more wonderful pictures - thank you so much for sharing!

Edited by Ruairidh, 10 May 2009 - 23:14.

[Jim Thurman]

Apologies for not getting back to this sooner. I've been busy writing and seeking photos!

Thanks for the replies.

[elansprint72]

While I'm a cost-sensitive person myself and have sympathy with those who may feel that historic photographs can seem overpriced, I would ask them to consider this equation:

To purchase a roll of film and have it processed, the last time I did so the cost per exposure was approximately 50 cents;

To cull out only the best quality, most useful exposures at a (possible but very high) success rate of 50 percent, the price of each good shot goes to...you can do the math;

To spend years of your life in cramped airplanes and uncomfortable road vehicles and seedy motels and/or friends' vacant sofas, exposing yourself and your own personal camera equipment to rain and wind and sun, tramping around racetracks, lugging your gear, thinking hard about your photography and how to do it better next time...well, I'm not saying I didn't love it, but dammit it was work;

To store and retain all those bits of film through numerous moves of residence, keeping them dry and light-fast despite flooded basements and fires in the nearby forest, is it fair to value that at another dollar per image per year? Through, say, 40 years?

To one day go through all those cardboard boxes and paper bags, pull out all those rolls of negs and sheets of slides, identify and sort and label and properly refile them so you can go back and find them again on demand, what would you say is a reasonable price per image for such labor?

Upon receiving an inquiry, to revisit the archive, locate and pull out all the images that could answer the request, bend over the light table evaluating them, then take the most promising to the workstation, operate the scanner, open the new digital images on the computer, examine and—to the extent possible—correct them for issues of focus, exposure, color, dust, scratches, framing, etc., then prepare thumbnails of the best images to send to the client for evaluation, await a response... how much would you ask to be paid?

And, when the prospective client complains about your prices, to not retort—as a crusty colleague tells me he does—"If you don't think that's fair, then you go down to the airport and you buy a ticket back to 1969 and you take the picture yourself."

Having such self restraint...priceless.

However, visiting www.petelyons.com to see all our pretty pictures...well, that is perfectly free.
You'll be warmly welcomed.

When I read this post I had the presence of mind to bookmark it, because I knew that one day I might want to quote it. It is the single best post I've seen on here.

I think that, on this forum, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it come to photography; perhaps I have taken three (almost) perfect racing shots in the last 40+ years. Today I saw one of these, on the web, credited to someone else.

[Ray Bell]

I hope you can do something about it...

Indeed, Pete has wrapped it all up there. To me it was a love of taking and having the pics. Unfortunately I fell down severely on storing and preserving. Worse... a friend gave most of mine to someone else who insisted they were mine but couldn't convince him. They got lost. Not to mention my wife having put a stack of them out in the rain ten or fifteen years before this.

I have very little left, I see now that I could have taken more care. But there are so many things you tend to lose in life I have become way too philosophical about it.

On the other hand, I have seen some of my words on sites on the net and wonder how they got there...

[fbarrett]

That said, if you ask archive curators nicely and explain the use (clubs, charitable events, etc.), most will give you a huge price break if possible. Or maybe you can contribute something in return: an ad in the magazine, a little volunteer time, a few shekels--even a few photos! In 25 years of publishing a small automotive magazine, I can't recall a time that something couldn't be worked out for photo use (and thanks to all those who made it work).

Frank

[E1pix]

When I read this post I had the presence of mind to bookmark it, because I knew that one day I might want to quote it. It is the single best post I've seen on here.

I think that, on this forum, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it come to photography; perhaps I have taken three (almost) perfect racing shots in the last 40+ years. Today I saw one of these, on the web, credited to someone else.

I just found this thread — Thank You, Pete (T.) — and I also agree with Mr. Lyons' post 100%. Sorry to never see him 'round here anymore...

Man, seeing your work credited to someone else really hurts, especially one of your best... Damn! Time for some Kung Fu?

... Not to mention my wife having put a stack of them out in the rain ten or fifteen years before this...

This hurts even worse!

I'd be happy to help you resurrect what's left, Ray.

That said, if you ask archive curators nicely and explain the use (clubs, charitable events, etc.), most will give you a huge price break if possible. Or maybe you can contribute something in return: an ad in the magazine, a little volunteer time, a few shekels--even a few photos! In 25 years of publishing a small automotive magazine, I can't recall a time that something couldn't be worked out for photo use (and thanks to all those who made it work).

Frank

Absolutely Frank, that's how to do it. In direct contrast to a guy here a few months back wanting free images for his book...

I hope you all enjoy your old work. It's really our lives on celluloid, after all.

[elansprint72]

I just found this thread — Thank You, Pete (T.) — and I also agree with Mr. Lyons' post 100%. Sorry to never see him 'round here anymore...

Man, seeing your work credited to someone else really hurts, especially one of your best... Damn! Time for some Kung Fu?;)


This hurts even worse!

I'd be happy to help you resurrect what's left, Ray.


Absolutely Frank, that's how to do it. In direct contrast to a guy here a few months back wanting free images for his book...

I hope you all enjoy your old work. It's really our lives on celluloid, after all.

Eric, Ray,
Our only consolation is that our best work is still ahead of us! Tomorrow is a new day.

[Ray Bell]

Maybe you could now post it here?

That way you could ensure that people know it's yours...

[elansprint72]

Maybe you could now post it here?

That way you could ensure that people know it's yours...

Ray,
I already did; some while back, with a link to my website and my flickr pages. My fault for not "spoiling" the photo with an intrusive watermark, I guess.
Lesson learned.

[E1pix]

Eric, Ray,
Our only consolation is that our best work is still ahead of us! Tomorrow is a new day.

That's a great attitude.

... My fault for not "spoiling" the photo with an intrusive watermark, I guess.
Lesson learned.

Sad but true, Pete.

Beyond pilfering, though, watermarking tells any downloader (and freeloader alike) where your image originated and sends 'em your way for eventual purchase — at least, by the actual buyers we care about. Took me awhile to accept it... but eventually I realized going into this strange new world of Cyberjoy that I either played the game knowing I'd get screwed at times — though only/mainly by people who wouldn't pay real money anyway, i.e., weren't actual buyers — or I best get learning how to make a great fast-food burger.

Art won out.

Keep up that great 'tude. Mine's crap at times from all the changes, but I'm working on it.

[Jim Thurman]

While I'm a cost-sensitive person myself and have sympathy with those who may feel that historic photographs can seem overpriced, I would ask them to consider this equation:

[snippage of good points]
... how much would you ask to be paid?

And, when the prospective client complains about your prices, to not retort—as a crusty colleague tells me he does—"If you don't think that's fair, then you go down to the airport and you buy a ticket back to 1969 and you take the picture yourself."

Having such self restraint...priceless.

EDITED: to remove website plug

While I understand perfectly the work and effort involved, there are two sides to this story. I would think Mr. Lyons being a writer as well, he'd be a bit more sensitive to the writers perspective, or at least be attuned to the hard realities of the time. It simply comes off as being completely out of touch. Ah, if only the shoe were on the other foot. What is being perceived as "low balled" is actually being out of touch. Do you get the same fees for your photos now that you did 25 years ago?

The reality of the situation is the writers market isn't what it once was, particularly when it comes to the dying sport of auto racing. Writers fees are very low. Asking for a large fee for a photo to accompany a story that pays peanuts is preposterous (sorry for the excessive alliteration). I truly believe in offering a "fair price" based on what I am being paid. If a photographer has no desire to sell "on the cheap", I perfectly understand and do not begrudge the photographer one bit (something Mr. Lyons and his "crusty colleague" apparently do toward writers).

I'll give you some examples. I have been offered a photo for four times what I was going to be paid for the article. Better yet, this same photographer is one of three people that have the particular photo. All of them claim ownership of the photo. Each offered the photo to me, each marked up 50% above the others quoted price. So, it cuts both ways. I've had other dealings equally as bad or worse. There also have been a few where the photographers come off well

Even beyond the low fees, it isn't peachy keen being a writer. Much like you photographers have suffered, I've seen my material stolen and put on the internet without credit, more than once. I also had a well known racing publication print a full historical statistical summary that I produced without giving me credit. To be fair, my name had been left off of the material - which had been sent to a sanctioning body for their archives and yearbook, but myself and the others involved corroborated it and contacted the publication, which apparently never saw fit to print anything acknowledging my work.

And while everyone borrows to some extent from what has gone before research wise (which, as an aside, explains perpetuation of many horrific errors), I strive to do as much original research as possible. Recently, a magazine article seemed heavily based on an article I'd written that can be found on the internet. While I'll give the writer the benefit of the doubt, I have a hard time believing he did exactly the same research I did and didn't simply use my article. I have no problem with it, aside from credit...though I will admit the money would be nice. Particularly because I got stiffed on my fee for the original. So, I am well aware of the frustration you write of.

So, photogs, I respect your work and efforts and fully understand if you choose not to participate with the low fees involved, but let's not take it out on the poor writers. Let's unify against our common enemies, publishers! (I would say editors, but...well, you know )

Edited by Jim Thurman, 23 June 2012 - 20:53.

[E1pix]

Jim, I respect your words and live your frustrations with the times every day. To answer your question, many areas of photography pay 10-50% of 25 years ago... to recompense for images paid for decades ago and ever since.

I'm both a shooter and a writer... so have worked, and do work, "both sides" since 1975, and certainly I didn't perceive anything like that from Mr. Lyons comments. The fact that Pete is both a photographer and writer means he understands both avocations intimately and like few others. This time, his comments were about photography. To suggest that Pete Lyons or anyone else is 'out of touch' comes off like a whole heap of sour grapes at another's expense frankly, and is beside the points he mentions in his post... and he's not here to defend himself.

Honest Questions comparing the models of writing and photography...
— Were your initial equipment expenses comparable to buying several cameras, and film, and lenses, and flashes, and...?
— Did your work require travel, plus film, processing, and endless expenses after your story was done?
— Did your work have you organizing, editing, cataloging, and filing hundreds to thousands of individual pieces just after the race — and also for years after, taking up a roomful of space?
— Have you worked thousands upon thousands of unpaid hours since digital scanning was required to enable EVER selling your work again?
— Has your talent been made easier to achieve, and within the reach of almost anyone, due to equipment benefitting from technological advance?

These are tough times and publishers buy my bread. They have a bottom line in a time of skyrocketing expenses, from massive paper increases, labor increases, and constant technology investments — all coinciding with an era demanding a cheaper retail product to compete. It is up to us artists to offer what they need, to re-invent ourselves if necessary, and they owe us nothing but courtesy until we cut a deal. If racing doesn't pay our bills, we diversify, painful I know when we love it all so much.


Yes, we do need to work together; writers, shooters, designers, publishers. Addressing any segment as 'the culprit' won't do it.

[Michael Ferner]

Let's unify against our common enemies, publishers! (I would say editors, but...well, you know )

Err... that's not the enemy! Unless I missed spotting the tongue in your cheek, it baffles me to read that from a published writer!!

The real enemy is the greed of the everyday consumer. Like everything in life. We are our worst enemy.

[Jim Thurman]

Err... that's not the enemy! Unless I missed spotting the tongue in your cheek, it baffles me to read that from a published writer!!

The real enemy is the greed of the everyday consumer. Like everything in life. We are our worst enemy.

Yes, E1Pix and Michael, tongue very firmly in cheek in the part about publishers I don't fault them at all in the current climate. However, if the climate were such that writers got better fees, then photographers would as well, and Mr. Lyons comments most likely wouldn't have even been made. Despite that, apparently I'm perceived as the one "blaming"

I'm baffled by the "greed of the everyday consumer." remark. Tongue in cheek?

[E1pix]

Hi, Jim and Michael, I appreciate your perspectives.

Jim, tongue in cheek was not entirely clear. Too vague for me anyway. Stock photo next time?

I can't speak for Pete, but in my case and with all of my comrades in the biz, the challenges and constant efforts I listed would be the same even if the pay was better. More properly paid, otherwise no difference. The efforts to re-invent one's life of images are worth a hundred grand a year in former billing hours, I can assure you — at no pay now and solely to make them as sellable as they already were before digitization. Investing yet again, after already investing substantial dough decades ago. The massive hours spent cannot be compared to low pay for a current writing job, sorry. Pete blamed nobody, only you did — the man merely laid out the efforts of the stock photo business. Perhaps he left out writing because that work was paid for decades ago, and has required zero outlay, storage, effort, or energy since — in 100% contrast to photography.


Michael, I do know what you mean... and I agree. I call it the "Wal Mart Mentality," but not at all to point out one cause. Cheap is now good enough. Part of this IMHO is people/clients/buyers are much more guarded with their funds, for fear of not replacing them easily like in past times. I noticed this trend taking flight in October of 2001, just my perception. There's so many variables for failure now, far more constant investment needed, and way too many complications in life and in business. I haven't looked but would bet that startup failures are much higher than in the '90s and before due to all of the above and a thousand other "new development factors."


Best to both of you, Gentleman.

[Catalina Park]

On another motoring forum I found a thread started by a photographer where he was having a justifiable rant about his photos being stolen and offered for sale on ebay.
A few threads later I find the same photographer has started a thread and all the photos he used in his posts he had stolen off the internet without permission. Including two of mine.
I complained about it, so he removed one photo and I got banned from the forum.

[Jim Thurman]

Hi, Jim and Michael, I appreciate your perspectives.

Jim, tongue in cheek was not entirely clear. Too vague for me anyway. Stock photo next time?;)

All I can do is put a smiley by it.

Much in your replies simply comes off like trying to pick a fight that I am not. But, please don't perceive what is not there (that I am "attacking" photographers or "blaming" and "faulting" people) and don't assume things about me...because you do not know. Not cool bro I could reply, but I'm not on trial here...or shouldn't be. And for the record, you aren't either

For example, I made no statement ranking the worth of writing vs. photography or the comparative worth of one's time (photographers time is more important than writers, or others?). It's not a ****ing contest, fer crying out loud You made the comparsions, I did not. This is not writer vs. photographer(s), but you seem to be trying to make it such.

Please stop being so defensive. I am not picking on photographers. I was simply giving a couple of (granted) negative examples and pointing out their relation with Mr. Lyons opening and closing lines of an otherwise well-written, if totally misplaced - particularly considering the thread - rant. The irony is what you have ascribed to me applies equally to Mr. Lyons opening and closing lines.

On the positive end (which I mentioned in passing), I've had photographers offer very kind advice and assistance (via PM, e-mail and even in this thread prior to Mr. Lyons), which is greatly appreciated

Didn't you post about having a bad attitude? (EDIT: "crap" attitude) Even in these trying times, try putting that attitude aside and re-reading what I wrote. Hopefully you will see that I have not written what you seem to feel I have

Edited by Jim Thurman, 24 June 2012 - 01:20.

[Jim Thurman]

Yes, we do need to work together; writers, shooters, designers, publishers. Addressing any segment as 'the culprit' won't do it.

Now, this...I do want to point out that this I agree 100% with and again, I was not "culprit-"ing (is that a word? ) anyone. Again, sorry if it was perceived otherwise.

I've always appreciated the photographers that were nice about it, even those that declined. There is no reason to not be polite

Edited by Jim Thurman, 24 June 2012 - 01:22.

[E1pix]

Not picking a fight at all, just backing up Mr. Lyons as a like-thinker in the same business.