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Early McLaren liveries


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#1 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:29

Hi guys,

Few years ago I stumbeled upon a multicoloured Mclaren from 1966. It was in some magazine that excapes me now, but there was only a picture (it was painting, not photograph), it was a livery proposed by one Bruce's close friend who was an artist. There was a short text beneath the image saying that that livery was planned for 1966 but never actually raced because Bruce McLaren signed a contract with filmmaker John Frankenheimer to run the Pete Aaron scheme during the 1966 races. Also Reg Parnell's Mike Spence ran that scheme at the races where Mclaren was not participating.
And That is all that the text says. Now, we are all familiar with Frankenheimer's scheme it was Rodhesian like but with green instead of blue. Simple white with green stripe. But the "original" Mclaren 1966 that multicoloured one, was simply fascinating, It looked something like today's oreca with this Piet Mondrian theme, it was very simmilar and it was very attractive. My Question are:

1) Why didnt Frankenheimer choose that multicoloured to be the theme for Pete Aarons car?

2) Why didnt Mclaren run that scheme in 1967 when the contract with the filmmaker expired

3) What is really that Aaron livery based upon? To me it looks like Rhodesian scheme but with green instead of blue

4) What was the original Mclaren livery prior to 1966, was it red with blue stripe, or was it red with golden stripe? I think it was red with golden stripe because gold was the sporting colour of Australia and New Zealand.

5) And finally who came up with that gorgeus papaya livery, was it Bruce or that friend of his that painter that also proposed that multicoloured scheme from question one.

thank you, bye

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#2 Alan Cox

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 07:46

Can't say I recall seeing a pic of this livery, but could it have been designed by Bruce's great friend Michael Turner, who also designed the M1B bodywork and the McLaren kiwi badge?

#3 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:13

...gold was the sporting colour of Australia and New Zealand

I am one Nw Zealander who never knew that :lol:


#4 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:22

Can't say I recall seeing a pic of this livery, but could it have been designed by Bruce's great friend Michael Turner, who also designed the M1B bodywork and the McLaren kiwi badge?


thanks, that name excaped me. Was it also Turner that came up with papaya livery?

#5 kayemod

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:36

Was it also Turner that came up with papaya livery?


No, Bruce saw some new Lola T70 bodywork one day at SM, Hugh Dibley's I think, and decided that would be the colour for all his cars in future, it was that simple. It's a stock pigment called Traffic Yellow, still available today, though many restored cars in the Woking collection are not the correct shade at all. SearchBB will find a lot more info on this. It was never called 'Papaya' at the time, I think some journalist might have used the term, and sadly, it seems to have stuck. It wasn't called Gulf Orange at the time either, that was just a lucky coincidence for one of their main sponsors, the cars were orange before Gulf came along.


#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:56

Originally posted by brabhamBT19
.....What was the original McLaren livery prior to 1966, was it red with blue stripe, or was it red with golden stripe? I think it was red with golden stripe because gold was the sporting colour of Australia and New Zealand.....


If you look at colour pics of the McLaren cars running in the Tasman Cup in 1964 and 1965, you'll find that in '64 they were as per Cooper... dark green with the two white stripes up the sides... and in '65 they were basically the reverse of this... white cars (well, an off-white or ivory probably) with green stripes up the sides of the nose.

These cars were run by Bruce McLaren Motor Racing, they weren't McLaren cars but were Coopers built to his specifications.

#7 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 11:01

If you look at colour pics of the McLaren cars running in the Tasman Cup in 1964 and 1965, you'll find that in '64 they were as per Cooper... dark green with the two white stripes up the sides... and in '65 they were basically the reverse of this... white cars (well, an off-white or ivory probably) with green stripes up the sides of the nose.

These cars were run by Bruce McLaren Motor Racing, they weren't McLaren cars but were Coopers built to his specifications.


so this means that Aaron's liveri is actually based on real Bruce Mclaren's cars

Edited by brabhamBT19, 15 May 2009 - 11:01.


#8 Stephen W

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 11:52

so this means that Aaron's liveri is actually based on real Bruce Mclaren's cars


Also let us not forget that the Japanese National Racing colour was white.

:wave:

#9 Alan Cox

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 11:57

so this means that Aaron's liveri is actually based on real Bruce Mclaren's cars

Picking at nits, BT19, Pete's surname was (and probably still is), actually, Aron


#10 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:47

in '65 they were... white cars (well, an off-white or ivory probably) with green stripes up the sides of the nose.

My fading memory doesn't allow me to swear to this, but didn't Bruce's car have green trimmings and Phil's blue?


#11 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:52

It was never called 'Papaya' at the time, I think some journalist might have used the term, and sadly, it seems to have stuck.

It was actually called 'paprika' early on, but I wouldn't describe the colour as that, either


#12 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 12:55

well it could be paprika

Posted Image

you see there is both orange and yellow

Edited by brabhamBT19, 15 May 2009 - 12:55.


#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 13:03

Originally posted by David McKinney
My fading memory doesn't allow me to swear to this, but didn't Bruce's car have green trimmings and Phil's blue?


Maybe both of us are suffering from memory failure?

Kevin Drage posted this pic from Longford 1965:

Posted Image

There might be a slight difference in the colours of the stripes/nosebands, but it's not outstanding. Or is it?

And, of course, we now see that the noseband/centre stripe was the pattern, not the previous year's Cooper-style twin stripes up the side.

#14 B Squared

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 13:07

To my untrained eye, they look green and blue respectively.

Brian

#15 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 13:42

Maybe both of us are suffering from memory failure?

Kevin Drage posted this pic from Longford 1965:

Posted Image

There might be a slight difference in the colours of the stripes/nosebands, but it's not outstanding. Or is it?

And, of course, we now see that the noseband/centre stripe was the pattern, not the previous year's Cooper-style twin stripes up the side.


OK so we have an answer to question number 3

Pete Aron livery was based upon Team Mclaren livery from 1965. I think this picture pretty much confirms it.

Edited by brabhamBT19, 15 May 2009 - 13:43.


#16 Pedro 917

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 14:38

Maybe both of us are suffering from memory failure?

Kevin Drage posted this pic from Longford 1965:

Posted Image

There might be a slight difference in the colours of the stripes/nosebands, but it's not outstanding. Or is it?

And, of course, we now see that the noseband/centre stripe was the pattern, not the previous year's Cooper-style twin stripes up the side.


Well, could be the blue sky reflecting on the green paint. I have pictures of Pedro in a "blue" Cooper -Maserati (1967) and a "blue" BRM (1968).

#17 Stephen W

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 15:16

Well, could be the blue sky reflecting on the green paint. I have pictures of Pedro in a "blue" Cooper -Maserati (1967) and a "blue" BRM (1968).


Possibly degradation of the film stock used.

:wave:

#18 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 15:31

If there are two cars on the same picture, isnt it a bit odd that only one would suffer from degradation?

one was green other was blue, it is a piece of paper it doesn't degrade according to depicted subject, it degrades as a whole, you can clearly see that those two noses are completely different colour yet the quality of the paper is the same on both of the noses

#19 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 15:33

Well, could be the blue sky reflecting on the green paint. I have pictures of Pedro in a "blue" Cooper -Maserati (1967) and a "blue" BRM (1968).


Parnell entries were blue with a red sometimes orange nose, as opposed to his funky Pedro Tergal sponsored factory BRM that was dark brown.

Regarding Cooper-Maserati it was probably degradation, althougt Icxs drove dark blue cooper at monza 67

Edited by brabhamBT19, 15 May 2009 - 15:35.


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#20 Stephen W

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 16:02

If there are two cars on the same picture, isnt it a bit odd that only one would suffer from degradation?

one was green other was blue, it is a piece of paper it doesn't degrade according to depicted subject, it degrades as a whole, you can clearly see that those two noses are completely different colour yet the quality of the paper is the same on both of the noses


I have taken a close look at the posted image and I am not convinced that the two cars are running differently coloured stripes. If you take a close look at the sides of the nosecones the colours look identical, it is only on the top surface where there is an appreciable difference.

Anyone got one of the programmes from the series where it might give the colours?

:wave:

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 16:11

Ray -
Have a look at Page 303 of the AGP 50 year book

Steve -
I've got the programmes from all NZ rounds but only Teretonga gives colours - black and white for both :lol:

Edited by David McKinney, 15 May 2009 - 16:13.


#22 Rob29

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 16:16

I am one Nw Zealander who never knew that :lol:

I always thought it was black.
Comonwealth racing colours published c1956;
Australia; green & gold
New Zealand;green & silver
South Africa; green & Buff
Canada; green & white
Ireland already had green & orange
Japan;-ivory with red rising sun was created 1964 for honda team.

#23 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 16:21

New Zealand informally adopted black in honour of the national rugby team, but it was never official

I first remember reading about the green/gold for Australia and green/silver for NZ about the time Bruce McLaren first raced in Europe, ie 1958 or '59

But black, often relieved by bits of white or silver, remained a favourite with many drivers. The NZIGP team F2 and FJ cars of 1960 (Hulme and Lawton) were black and silver

#24 SWB

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 16:48

After much deliberation I have decided the nearest car in the photo does have a green stripe. The following year (66) the M2 had a green stripe and in closer B&W photo's you can see a thin band of another colour next to it, which I assume is silver, hence the New Zealand racing colours.

Steve


#25 mfd

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 17:28

Parnell entries were blue with a red sometimes orange nose, as opposed to his funky Pedro Tergal sponsored factory BRM that was dark brown.

That's a new one for me - you mean the P126 Spain 1969?


#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 18:41

I frankly don't rememeber any distinction between the colours...

I'm not saying there wasn't, but my memory is of green. That said, the two cars were built a year apart and I don't know what the circumstances were regarding the change of colour of Phil Hill's car, like when that was done and by whom and maybe even where.

McLaren's car was new. Was Phil's perhaps kept in NZ for the year since its last use and prepared there?

Does the NZIGP programme have anything to say on the subject?

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 18:50

McLaren's car was new. Was Phil's perhaps kept in NZ for the year since its last use and prepared there?

I'm sure not. It would have gone from Australia to the UK after the 1964 Tasman and been prepared (and repainted) there

Does the NZIGP programme have anything to say on the subject?

Nope



#28 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 21:22

I have taken a close look at the posted image and I am not convinced that the two cars are running differently coloured stripes. If you take a close look at the sides of the nosecones the colours look identical, it is only on the top surface where there is an appreciable difference.

Anyone got one of the programmes from the series where it might give the colours?

:wave:


Ok this is what I see. 10 is fatter while 11 is slimmer, 10 has smaller windshield while 11 has bigger, 10 has green nose while 11 has blue.

Conclusion those are two different cars, 10 looks older while 11 looks newer. It could be that 10 was painted much earlier than 11. Maybe Bruce didnt like green so he tried blue for 11. Because it seems to me that he experimented quite a lot with schemes. And thats why I opened this topic in the first place. He seems to me like until he found "paprika" he was on constant quest to find the ultimate livery. Bear in mind that after white-green, white-blue, there was series of red-blue and red-gold cars all of those before "paprika".

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 21:35

As already stated, 10 was the new car, 11 was the previous year's repainted...

They were totally different cars, a new one being required because Timmy Mayer had written off the twin to Phil Hill's car at Longford the previous year.

#30 David McKinney

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 21:35

There's no argument about which models they are
Phil Hill's mount (11) is a year-old T70
Bruce's (10) is a new T79
They would have been painted at the same time, I'm sure. Phil's stripe in blue to represent US racing colours, Bruce's in green for NZ (or at least Commonwealth)

Touché!

Edited by David McKinney, 15 May 2009 - 21:36.


#31 brabhamBT19

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 22:37

There's no argument about which models they are
Phil Hill's mount (11) is a year-old T70
Bruce's (10) is a new T79
They would have been painted at the same time, I'm sure. Phil's stripe in blue to represent US racing colours, Bruce's in green for NZ (or at least Commonwealth)

Touché!


thank god this has been solved. finally. I told you one was green other blue.

#32 Rob G

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 00:28

...as opposed to his funky Pedro Tergal sponsored factory BRM that was dark brown.

Regarding Cooper-Maserati it was probably degradation, althougt Icxs drove dark blue cooper at monza 67

I've never heard about either of these. The only dark brown F1 cars I've ever heard of were the Hexagon Brabham in '74 and the Rebaque in '79. And Ickx's Cooper was a works entry, so why would it have been dark blue? :confused:

#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 21:17

Here you go, BT19. Honestly, it might help... On the paint tin the title label read 'Dark Lust. Green'.

http://www.toledo-be...nd/Ishihara.asp

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 16 May 2009 - 21:20.


#34 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 21:25

No, Bruce saw some new Lola T70 bodywork one day at SM, Hugh Dibley's I think, and decided that would be the colour for all his cars in future, it was that simple. It's a stock pigment called Traffic Yellow, still available today, though many restored cars in the Woking collection are not the correct shade at all. SearchBB will find a lot more info on this. It was never called 'Papaya' at the time, I think some journalist might have used the term, and sadly, it seems to have stuck.


I could possibly have been that journalist. I took 'papaya' from a direct quote by Teddy Mayer 1968, Teddy explaining that he and Bruce wanted a colour which would show up their cars much more effectively on American colour TV - the pioneering, but ghastly, NTSC system, lampooned by BBC boffin friends of mine as standing for 'Never Twice the Same Colour'.

DCN


#35 kayemod

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 22:05

I could possibly have been that journalist...

DCN


Oooh! Sorry Doug, no offence intended of course. I'm just relieved I didn't insert another word between 'some' and 'journalist'. At Specialised Mouldings, as the people actually making all the McLaren bodies, we used to cringe whenever we saw the word 'papaya'.

Could be worse though, at least no-one was ever misguided (or stupid) enough to describe them as "brown"...

Edit PS, just noticed that McLaren is spelled wrongly in the thread title. Obviously a real expert at work here.

Edited by kayemod, 16 May 2009 - 22:09.


#36 kayemod

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 11:16

...might I suggest that poking fun at non-native English speakers and their attempts at expressing themselves on an International forum like this is uncalled for.


All perfectly true but be fair, in general that doesn't happen. This place is exceptionally tolerant of non-native English speakers, but it doesn't help when newcomers don't complete their profile, tell us nothing at all about themselves, and jump in with both feet, displaying their ignorance and seemingly bent on stirring up controversy. Most of us on here know quite a lot about specific areas of what is a vast subject, but are here to learn, and are happy to take in new knowledge from fellow members. Anyone coming along without that attitude is unlikely to fit in or be accepted.


#37 Doug Nye

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 16:41

Sorry fellers - I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I've got 'flu so I'm not firing on all cyls. But perhaps, just perhaps, what we have here is a genuine language problem, and that what BT19 describes as 'brown' really is how he has been taught to describe the tint which native English-speakers are taught to interpret as 'green' - i.e. brown/brun/braun/marrone as opposed to green/grun/vert/verde/色の緑/зеленый цвет цвета/χρώμα πράσινο/顏色綠色?

The metallic dark green - 'Lust. Green' with a full-stop/period amidships - colour adopted by BRM was, and remains, notorious amongst photographers for reflecting differing tints dependent upon background, sky, etc. To the eye, as most TNFers will be well aware, 'BRM green' is considerably darker than the non-metallic 'apple green' used by Team Lotus, but not quite as dark as the very dense 'bottle green' of the Cooper Car Co, and the even darker 'BRG' of Jaguar factory team sports cars.

The photo BT19 cites as 'brown' depicts a P261 under a shelter of some kind, I presume, in a paddock somewhere. Its 'Lust. Green' finish has picked-up and is reflecting the shaded underside of the shelter material above. Since we know it to be 'green' we interpret it as 'green in the shade'.

Apparently not being accustomed to the cars first-hand, BT19 interprets it as what we would - I assume - describe accurately as his 'dark brown', but the only justification for such an interpretation is that the viewer takes the photo as his ONLY standard of reference.

We hold hundreds of colour transparencies of BRMs shot in variably bright weather conditions. The best of them probably present the worst colour references, since the metallic paint picks up and reflects the bright blue of a sunny sky above. Anyone examining those transparencies without prior knowledge might well assume that the cars were painted blue, as opposed to reflecting a blue sky. To reproduce an accurate 'Lust.Green' in print is a real challenge - one that has defeated innumerable prints over several decades.

And NO, BT19 - if I had let you go away assuming that BRMs were indeed painted in what most of the English-speaking world describe as 'brown'. I would have been doing you a profound disservice.

They were in fact a particularly distinctive, metallic-flake-bearing, dark shade of green/grun/vert/verde/色の緑/зеленый цвет цвета/χρώμα πράσινο/顏色綠色...as above.

Think DARK METALLIC GREEN, and you won't go far wrong.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 May 2009 - 16:44.


#38 Doug Nye

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 17:12

My Question are:

1) Why didnt Frankenheimer choose that multicoloured to be the theme for Pete Aarons car?

2) Why didnt Mclaren run that scheme in 1967 when the contract with the filmmaker expired

3) What is really that Aaron livery based upon? To me it looks like Rhodesian scheme but with green instead of blue

4) What was the original Mclaren livery prior to 1966, was it red with blue stripe, or was it red with golden stripe? I think it was red with golden stripe because gold was the sporting colour of Australia and New Zealand.

5) And finally who came up with that gorgeus papaya livery, was it Bruce or that friend of his that painter that also proposed that multicoloured scheme from question one.

thank you, bye


Right, starting again:

Questions 1-3 - no firm idea of the correct answer.

Question 4 - Original McLaren 1965 livery was brick red, the 1966 'Mallite'-Ford F1 was white with dark green stripe edged in silver (I seem to recall), the 1967 M4B-BRM V8 was brick red and its replacement BRM V12-engined M5A was brick red with silver stripe edged in green (again, to the best of my recollection without consulting the pix).

Question 5 - already been covered here, but Teddy Mayer certainly claimed credit for promoting its adoption for the 1967 M6A CanAm cars.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 17 May 2009 - 17:13.


#39 RA Historian

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 22:15

Btw - Chaparrals were brown too!
(At least the flanks of some early incarnations were for a time.)

That is true but I think that I should offer some clarification lest we go off on another frustrating tangent. The Chaparral 2-A cars of 1983-65 were constructed with a carbon fiber tub. I may not be entirely correct about the exact makeup of the material, but it was a form of plastic/fibreglass/carbon fiber; I think you know to what I am referring. Anyway, the tub was unpainted, and the bodywork was white. Hence, the portion of the tub that showed, the lower flanks between the wheels, remained in the unpainted tub color, which was a shade of brown.

Tom

Please, nobody post that it really was green!

Edited by RA Historian, 17 May 2009 - 22:16.


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#40 2F-001

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 03:46

... The Chaparral 2-A cars of 1983-65 were constructed with a carbon fiber tub. I may not be entirely correct about the exact makeup of the material, but it was a form of plastic/fibreglass/carbon fiber
Tom

Generally accepted as being just grp, I think. Certainly not carbon: the true potential for usefully strong carbonfibre was first demonstrated, I believe, at the RAE here in England sometime after the building of the first Chaparral 2.
But otherwise, yes, I agree; I've always understood that colour to be the gel-coat, pigmented or otherwise. But available photographs show a variety of hues. Maybe the restored car is painted?
There are at least a couple of fairly widely published photos (maybe Dave Friedman's, can't remember) showing those sections in a pale blue-ish; but that's not a matter to pursue here, I think.
(Actually, I rather wish I'd not raised this here. Maybe I should have added a smiley.)

One other point though, Tom: it seems to me that we only call them 2As in retrospect - do you know if they were ever referred to thus in period? (Before there was a 2C spec, that is.)

(edited for poor spelling...)

Edited by 2F-001, 18 May 2009 - 07:01.


#41 Pullman99

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:59

Missed most of this exciting topic yesterday. Had an exciting day in the world of the permanent way (now that IS English) instead.

When I was involved with The Patrick Collection, the museum had purchased BRM P5781 at the Christies auction. This car had been kept in running order by Bourne but the very original body was exhibiting signs of serious cracking. I spoke with the guys at Motor Panels at Coventry (part of The Owen Organisation of course) who had constructed the bodywork originally. Through te good offices of Neville O'Keefe and David Owen, we loaned them the car to particiapte in the Coventry Motoring Festival in 1985 and they then proceeded with its bodywork restoration. Some of the original Motor Panels personnel who had been involved with BRM over many years (and with the Bluebird CN7) oversaw the work. This was done to ensure that the original aluminium alloy was retained throughout but was crack repaired and THEN REPAINTED IN ORIGINAL BRM LUST. GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Underneath the Bourne applied paint there were traces of blue (I think) and certainly Centro Sud red. Our intention was to more accurately present the car as it appeared at the Italian GP in 1962 and that's how it ended up (as No. 14). Not quite sure where the car is now. We got it running with advice from Hall & Fowler (as it was then) and from Shell. The only F1 car that I've driven (albeit very briefly).

Returning to the 1966 McLarens. I've seen some pics of M2B (with the Ford engine I believe) in a museum but can't think where. It is definitely white and green though. With the McLaren Festival in Auckland next January, will both cars make an appearance, I wonder. Would love to see the MGM M3 (???) camera car too.

#42 brabhamBT19

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:34

Well guys, surprise surpirse, BRMs were GREEN!

Story goes like this, I was just about present you the ultimate evidence that BRMs were actualy brown, so I took that old book of mine and decided to photograph the image of the BRM that I always thought was brown.

And than a miracle happened, as flash ignited brown BRM turned into green BRM

flashed:
Posted Image



non flashed (not really how appears in book):
Posted Image

this is how appears in book; also note that tyres, exhaust pipes, and bodyplate are virtually the same colour (brown)
Posted Image

this is another flashed that reveals green, but in book it looks brown
Posted Image



Guys you were right, thank you for your stubborness, without it I would still think they were brown.

Cheers ,bye :wave:

Edited by brabhamBT19, 18 May 2009 - 07:43.


#43 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:03

'We make every effort to ensure perfect colour reproduction, but owing to printing limitations the colours shown here may not match exactly.' Never seen that before? You cannot rely on magazine printing, photo printing or any other form of reproduction to show colours exactly. When you take into account old, faded photos, badly exposed when shot, poorly reproduced there is no way of guaranteeing the correct colour. With correctly exposed photographs printed to the highest standards there is also the problem of castes introduced by the ambiant lighting and influences such as sky and ground. Of course one of the pictures shows a BRM that could, if you didn't know, be called 'brownish', but to say that, therefore, brown was the BRM colour, especially in the face of muliple posts from people who have seen the real car is a tiny bit silly. I won't put it more forcefully than that! There is only one way to tell, see the real car - but then exact shades can vary too...

#44 brabhamBT19

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 08:50

Of course one of the pictures shows a BRM that could, if you didn't know, be called 'brownish', but to say that, therefore, brown was the BRM colour, especially in the face of muliple posts from people who have seen the real car is a tiny bit silly.



I am scepitc (maybe agnostic I am not sure), I never take things for granted, I always tend to question, no matter who told me.

No hard feelings, I am actually glad I learned something new. thats why I am here to learn things that interests me. :wave:

#45 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:19

What matters is that you are prepared to admit your mistake. :up:

Photgraphs are always difficult. I have seen one that shows a group of cars at Le Mans which I know qere blue (Ecurie Ecosse) and Green (Aston Martin) but they appear the same colour.

Agreed, D Type. :up:

BRMs particularly are often a little tricky, as I think has been mentioned...

Bluish, greyish, a greeny hue, a Hughie Green, even brownish.... :drunk:
Posted Image
Rob :wave:

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 18 May 2009 - 11:27.


#46 RA Historian

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 12:19

Generally accepted as being just grp, I think. Certainly not carbon: the true potential for usefully strong carbonfibre was first demonstrated, I believe, at the RAE here in England sometime after the building of the first Chaparral 2.
But otherwise, yes, I agree; I've always understood that colour to be the gel-coat, pigmented or otherwise. But available photographs show a variety of hues. Maybe the restored car is painted?
There are at least a couple of fairly widely published photos (maybe Dave Friedman's, can't remember) showing those sections in a pale blue-ish; but that's not a matter to pursue here, I think.
(Actually, I rather wish I'd not raised this here. Maybe I should have added a smiley.)

One other point though, Tom: it seems to me that we only call them 2As in retrospect - do you know if they were ever referred to thus in period? (Before there was a 2C spec, that is.)

(edited for poor spelling...)

Thanks much for the info; I knew that the tub was a form of plastic, but was unsure about the exact makeup and frankly did not want to go through boxes of old magazines to find out!

Also, you are quite right :up: about the designation of the 2A being made retroactively. I used that designation in my original post just to simplify things without going into explanations. But 'back in the day' they were simply Chaparral 2s. As you say, when the 2C was debuted in late 1965 the 2s were then referred to as 2As in order to differentiate them.

By the way, it is rather nice for the two of us to have this little chat without once getting into an argument over color :)

Tom

#47 turin

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 12:41

not too much of a poster here in TNF, by I lurk ocassionally. Interestingly, this thread has touched upon something I´ve always wondered and is that how can we be so sure that the colors I see are the same for everybody else? I guess we can´t. Although colors is just a matter of physics and different wavelenghts, it may as well be possible that each individual process them slightly different. However, that is unimportant because as long as we have the definition right, we will be on the same page. I mean, if I as a baby saw what you tag as color green as what we call red, I would still call it green thorought my life because I was taught to do so. Apparently, there was something of the sort here.

But then again, colors are just an illusion anyway because they depend on the incident light, as Doug briliantly explained a while ago. And don´t get me started on using photographs!

sorry for the hijack!

#48 2F-001

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 13:11

Also, you are quite right :up: about the designation of the 2A being made retroactively. I used that designation in my original post just to simplify things without going into explanations. But 'back in the day' they were simply Chaparral 2s. As you say, when the 2C was debuted in late 1965 the 2s were then referred to as 2As in order to differentiate them.

By the way, it is rather nice for the two of us to have this little chat without once getting into an argument over color :)

Tom


Thanks Tom. I wasn't really aware of the Chaparral marque until 67, so everything I've learned of pre-2F days has been 'retrospective'.

We could argue about the white, I suppose!



#49 Twin Window

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:15

OK guys; after receiving an apology from BT19 plus a couple of requests from other members this thread has been edited and is now 'live' again.

I have spent a long time I could ill afford in weeding-out the chaff in the hope that the interesting stuff remains (although inevitably it will now be a little disjointed).

But, at the first sign of it regressing to its previous farcical state I shalln't hesitate in binning it forever - and shall also reprimand any such culprits via the new system.


You have been warned!

;)

#50 Tony Matthews

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 12:35

I feel rather faint - as if I'd been, how can I put it? - edited...