80 replies to this topic

[john aston]

Autosport contains a 2 page piece this week by Dan Wheldon on the immense technical challenge which Indianapolis presents- you know the sort of stuff, crosswinds blah blah,all corners (turns I guess?)might look the same but in reality they could not be more different, God no, blah.etc

How immensely more refreshing was Clay Reggazoni's view after a run there- 'It's easy.Its a-left a-left a-lefta'

I look forward to Monaco qualifying.

[B Squared]

Gee John - thanks for this very open minded view. Clay (and you) may have forgot this sterling moment in his Indianapolis experience:



Maybe if he'd had a little more respect, he'd have had success there, as has 2005 Winner Dan Wheldon. With all due respect,

Brian

[Nigel Beresford]

Autosport contains a 2 page piece this week by Dan Wheldon on the immense technical challenge which Indianapolis presents- you know the sort of stuff, crosswinds blah blah,all corners (turns I guess?)might look the same but in reality they could not be more different, God no, blah.etc

How immensely more refreshing was Clay Reggazoni's view after a run there- 'It's easy.Its a-left a-left a-lefta'

I look forward to Monaco qualifying.

Sorry John, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I've engineered a car to P2 in the Monaco GP (Alesi, 1990) and P5 in the Indy 500 (Briscoe 2007) and in all of motor sport there is no greater race engineering challenge than the Speedway. Maybe that's why the only mark the late, great Clay made at Indy was on the wall......

[alansart]

'It's easy.Its a-left a-left a-lefta'

Unfortunately it hurts when it goes a-right a-righta!

[Buford]

Sorry John, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I've engineered a car to P2 in the Monaco GP (Alesi, 1990) and P5 in the Indy 500 (Briscoe 2007) and in all of motor sport there is no greater race engineering challenge than the Speedway. Maybe that's why the only mark the late, great Clay made at Indy was on the wall......

Ouch! Don't you just hate it when experts show up and ruin the fun Of course if this was Cesspool Comments the popcorn box experts would be saying "Nigel you wannabee, why can't you win anything?"

[Nigel Beresford]

Ouch! Don't you just hate it when experts show up and ruin the fun Of course if this was Cesspool Comments the popcorn box experts would be saying "Nigel you wannabee, why can't you win anything?"

Indeed, it's not for want of trying....I'm having another shot at it on Sunday.

I'm just an idiot for getting drawn in to jabbing back at fellow Europeans who are blinkered about everything outside F1.

[Flat Black 84]

Sounds as though someone erroneously dropped an "s" from the original poster's surname.

[Tony Matthews]

I'm just an idiot for getting drawn in to jabbing back at fellow Europeans who are blinkered about everything outside F1.

Leave it, Nigel, 'e's not worth it! Best of luck, wish I was going to be there to see it.

[Buford]

Indeed, it's not for want of trying....I'm having another shot at it on Sunday.

I'm just an idiot for getting drawn in to jabbing back at fellow Europeans who are blinkered about everything outside F1.

Good luck - stay safe - and your expertise is always welcome here.

[Nigel Beresford]

Good luck - stay safe - and your expertise is always welcome here.

Thanks guys, we'll be doing our best.

[Buford]

Thanks guys, we'll be doing our best.

Sorry I forgot - who you got Briscoe?

[jeze]

Sorry John, but you don't know what you're talking about.

I've engineered a car to P2 in the Monaco GP (Alesi, 1990) and P5 in the Indy 500 (Briscoe 2007) and in all of motor sport there is no greater race engineering challenge than the Speedway. Maybe that's why the only mark the late, great Clay made at Indy was on the wall......

What is the biggest challenge at Indy in you opinion Nigel? I certainly think that the confidence in the car must be key, as well as being able to carry as much moentum on the short stretches as possible? Is it difficult getting a good qualifying run with new tyres, since perhaps they're cold? Anyway, I hope Will can spring a surprise this weekend! Wish him well from me I'll watch my first 500 (hasn't been on telly before in my country)! I really look forward to it! Much more than Monaco! Anyway, which of the intermediate ovals are most difficult from an engineeirng perspective?

Edited by jeze, 21 May 2009 - 19:03.

[B Squared]

Buford - jeze covered it too - Nigel is with Will Power for this event and was with him at Long Beach too.

Brian

[kayemod]

I've never been dismissive of US oval racing, but the older I get, the less dismissive I become. I'm currently re-reading Andrew Ferguson's Team Lotus - The Indianapolis Years , probably a bit out of date now, but one of the best books written on the subject.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I found Wheldon's trackguide interesting because he talks about how the corners are different. I would never have considered how the paddock tunnel between 1 and 2 would affect the surface in the short chute and thus how the car runs through 2. Stuff like the wind is obvious, there's not much in turn 2, compared to turns 1 and 3 so of course wind directions are going to be an issue, but the pavement details specifically were enlightening. I wasn't sure why the line would be different through turn 4, or have more variations, though I don't have the article in front of me.

Nigel is it possible the corners at Indy aren't perfect? It's an awfully big lap and given how long ago it was designed and built I wouldn't be surprised if there are some imperceptible differences in radius and banking. The kind of detail that would only become apparent if you were running some crazy speed with a finely honed setup that can be affected by such mundane things as a cloud rambling through.

[Nigel Beresford]

What is the biggest challenge at Indy in you opinion Nigel? I certainly think that the confidence in the car must be key, as well as being able to carry as much moentum on the short stretches as possible? Is it difficult getting a good qualifying run with new tyres, since perhaps they're cold? Anyway, I hope Will can spring a surprise this weekend! Wish him well from me I'll watch my first 500 (hasn't been on telly before in my country)! I really look forward to it! Much more than Monaco! Anyway, which of the intermediate ovals are most difficult from an engineeirng perspective?

Big questions to answer succinctly here. The biggest challenge at Indy is the fact that the car responds to the smallest increment of whatever adjustment you can make - one flat of change on the front pullrods changes the front ride height thirty thousandths of an inch and makes a significant change to the balance of the car. Adding a 0.017" shim to the rear toe links changes the rear toe in a way that again hugely influences the feel of the car. Therefore you have to be on top of tiny, tiny details which can help or hinder your every move. It's very easy to have a comfortable, slow car here, but you need the backside of a Mears or Castroneves to know how much you can trim downforce off the car and therefore trade comfort for speed. It's what Rick calls "seat time" and you don't learn it overnight. This is why people like Regga thought it was easy - they just didn't get it (though that was a completely different generation of cars). Then there's the mechanical aspect..finding how much you can minimise mechanical scrub (which kills your time in the corners) whilst keeping the car from sliding up in to the "grey". When you get in to qualifying trim then you can only run each set of tyres for four laps or so, because the downforce is so light that the driver is utterly dependent on having the grip that new tyes afford. There were a couple of guys who learned that lesson in an expensive way this month.

I don't want in any way to diminish the very significant difficulties of setting up an F1 car, but at the same time I wanted to disabuse anyone of the notion that Oval racing is somehow "simple", because it's very, very frickin' difficult to do properly.

Of the other ovals, I'd say the older tracks like Phoenix (with very different requirements for turns 1 & 2 versus 3 & 4), Nazareth (with changes in elevation and a similar difference in requirements from one end to the other like Phx) and Milwaukee (with very little banking) were fabulous challenges.

Thanks

Nigel

[Nigel Beresford]

I found Wheldon's trackguide interesting because he talks about how the corners are different. I would never have considered how the paddock tunnel between 1 and 2 would affect the surface in the short chute and thus how the car runs through 2. Stuff like the wind is obvious, there's not much in turn 2, compared to turns 1 and 3 so of course wind directions are going to be an issue, but the pavement details specifically were enlightening. I wasn't sure why the line would be different through turn 4, or have more variations, though I don't have the article in front of me.

Nigel is it possible the corners at Indy aren't perfect? It's an awfully big lap and given how long ago it was designed and built I wouldn't be surprised if there are some imperceptible differences in radius and banking. The kind of detail that would only become apparent if you were running some crazy speed with a finely honed setup that can be affected by such mundane things as a cloud rambling through.

Yes, they're all very different because of approach speed, banking angle, wind direction and bumpiness. Generally speaking turn 1 hads been difficult this month (flatter banking than the other corners), and turn 2 tended towards understeer whilst 3 & 4 were more comfortable, but it all depends on the direction and speed of the wind. You would be amazed, too, if you knew how much the downforce changes depending on air temp.

The tunnels under the track seem to cause bumps at all ovals, not just Indy.

[Buford]

Yes, they're all very different because of approach speed, banking angle, wind direction and bumpiness. Generally speaking turn 1 hads been difficult this month (flatter banking than the other corners), and turn 2 tended towards understeer whilst 3 & 4 were more comfortable, but it all depends on the direction and speed of the wind. You would be amazed, too, if you knew how much the downforce changes depending on air temp.

The tunnels under the track seem to cause bumps at all ovals, not just Indy.

Fascinating - thank you so much. I wanted to race there so bad most of my life. I was aware from the roadster days reading comments from the drivers that weather changes seemed to affect the cars more than just about anywhere else it seemed.

[Flat Black 84]

That is not only fascinating information, Mr. Beresford, it is very clearly enunciated. Enough so that even a technophobic pinhead such as myself can understand it. Thanks.

[Nigel Beresford]

Fascinating - thank you so much. I wanted to race there so bad most of my life. I was aware from the roadster days reading comments from the drivers that weather changes seemed to affect the cars more than just about anywhere else it seemed.

You'd be amazed at how much we track the weather, and how much of a part it plays in all decisions. How did we manage before the internet?

[Tim Murray]

That is not only fascinating information, Mr. Beresford, it is very clearly enunciated. Enough so that even a technophobic pinhead such as myself can understand it. Thanks.

Agreed absolutely - thank you so much, Nigel, and good luck!

[Lee Nicolle]

While personally not a great fan of that form of motorsport the challenges of setting those cars up, and driver bravery is probably greater than any other form of motorsport. In road racing if you are very close you can still be on the pace but really those cars have to be 100% to be on the pace. I guess to a large degree this also applies to the stockcars too.
Unfortunatly it looks simple but it aint! The constant pacecar laps take away from the spectacle too, but ofcourse are very nesecary.
I will watch it though if I can get someone to tape it for me!

[fbarrett]

Yes, they're all very different because of approach speed, banking angle, wind direction and bumpiness. Generally speaking turn 1 hads been difficult this month (flatter banking than the other corners), and turn 2 tended towards understeer whilst 3 & 4 were more comfortable, but it all depends on the direction and speed of the wind. You would be amazed, too, if you knew how much the downforce changes depending on air temp.

The tunnels under the track seem to cause bumps at all ovals, not just Indy.

One wonders if, in these days of computer simulations, anyone has considered digitally mapping the track surface and feeding the resulting data into a computer program that could simulate wind, mechanical grip, vehicle weight, traction, wheel alignment, track temperature, tire wear, fuel load, downforce, spring rates, shock absorber settings, ride height, power, and all the many other variables that affect lap times. Maybe there are just too many variable factors, and no doubt they interact very subtly. In a way, it's good to know that such set-up still depends on the human brain and good notes.

Frank

[john aston]

I will remove my tongue from my cheek now; I would actually love to see Indy but I would still- and I am being serious now - that GP racing does produce the greater challenge, judging by the number of GP drivers who have excelled at Ovals(ok not Piquet and Blundell et al) compared to the relatively small number of Indy racers who have cut it this side of the pond.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yet F1 megastar Juan Pablo Montoya still hasn't fully figured out NASCAR. I mean seriously, what's his problem? Out of date cars on ovals? Child's play.

[fines]

Of the other ovals, I'd say the older tracks like Phoenix (with very different requirements for turns 1 & 2 versus 3 & 4), Nazareth (with changes in elevation and a similar difference in requirements from one end to the other like Phx) and Milwaukee (with very little banking) were fabulous challenges.

Exactly my three favourite mile tracks, and not only for watching but also for driving... well, the latter obviously only in computer simulation! :blush:


As for the "debate", myself coming from Europe and therefore a road racing background, I think I understand all the arguments "against" ovals, but I count myself lucky to have "crossed the divide" at an early age, and to have enjoyed the resulting enrichment from a different racing culture. And to be brutally honest, road racing is deader than dead these days with all those emasculated micky mouse circuits, even Monaco isn't what it used to be, and its excitement wasn't always easy to get anyway! Ovals, on the other hand, are still the same, and will always be - you will not see any chicanes inserted before turns one and three at Indy, and they won't Tilkenize Michigan or Daytona - oval racing is still oval racing! That's why Formula One may ditch those dreaded pit stops along with the grooved tyres, and still won't get me interested again, but I will never stop enjoying Indy. Sorry Max, sorry Bernie, but your's is just the wrong formula!

[D-Type]

I once read an interview with Jackie Stewart where he described his catch-up drive at Monza in 1969 (?) as his greatest drive. The point he made was that because all the corners at Monza were flat out, anybody with adequately sized cojones could drive the circuit flat out. It took all of his skill to get that little bit more out of the car.

I feel that Indy is the same - because it's superficially easy it is difficult to gain that little bit more.

I have always understood that one skill that Mario Andretti brought to Lotus was the ability to micro tune a car's set up. The implication being that most F1 drivers simply drove around the problems.

Edit: typos

Edited by D-Type, 25 May 2009 - 21:08.

[TrackDog]

Yet F1 megastar Juan Pablo Montoya still hasn't fully figured out NASCAR. I mean seriously, what's his problem? Out of date cars on ovals? Child's play.

Don't forget that Juan started out in 2007, when the season was split between the COT and the older cars. There were differences between the way the two handled, as even Jeff Gordon found out. Also, the difference between driving a F1 car that weighs about 1200lbs with maybe 750 hp and a 3500lb Stock car is quite huge, especially when you throw in the much narrower tires on the stocker. Most Indy car veterans who have driven stock cars all seem to have the opinion that the stock car actually seems faster when both are driven on the same course. It also used to take about 7 years or so for the average stock car driver to really come into his own on the track; at least that was the prevailing opinion back in the late '80's...by the time a driver had reached that milestone, he was probably as good as he was going to get. There were a lot of variables, sure; but that was the prevailing train of thought, based on the number of tracks driven, the type of tracks, amount of races each year and the level of competition.

Montoya has won a race, and finished in the top five on numerous occasions...and he seems to be coming into his own this year with a different team and brand of car. He's only about 15 points out of the Chase at this writing, and he's had some great drives this year. Also, he's spotting a lot of experience to some of the more established drivers like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart. We'll probably begin to see what he's made of as the season progresses...he's got a good chance of making the Chase.

My point is that NASCAR is a different discipline, as other open-wheel stars like Paul Tracy, Jimmy Vasser, Christian Fittipaldi and Dario Franchitti have found out. Juan is sticking with it and hanging in there.

And his performance is improving all the time...


Dan

[RA Historian]

...he's got a good chance of making the Chase.

And that sort of sums up all that is wrong with nascar these days.
Tom

[jeze]

Yes, they're all very different because of approach speed, banking angle, wind direction and bumpiness. Generally speaking turn 1 hads been difficult this month (flatter banking than the other corners), and turn 2 tended towards understeer whilst 3 & 4 were more comfortable, but it all depends on the direction and speed of the wind. You would be amazed, too, if you knew how much the downforce changes depending on air temp.

The tunnels under the track seem to cause bumps at all ovals, not just Indy.

Where are the tunnels on the Indy lap, and how do they affect downforce? And frankly, how much can a driver talent gain on a lesser one during a lap (discounting car strenghts?) I noticed that Mário Moraes qualified seventh this year, and he wasn't exactly a frontrunner while running in British F3! Meanwhile, Will was down on him. Can a "lesser" driver reach top drawer results by the virtue of the team finding a perfect setup at this particular speedway?

[fines]

Well, that is what "driver talent" is all about - finding and fine-tuning the set-up! A good team can help, but can't do it all on its own.

[jeze]

Well, that is what "driver talent" is all about - finding and fine-tuning the set-up! A good team can help, but can't do it all on its own.

But Moraes isn't such a big talent, you don't get blown away by Marko Asmer and Jonathan Kennard if you are!

[scheivlak]

Can a "lesser" driver reach top drawer results by the virtue of the team finding a perfect setup at this particular speedway?

Maybe racing on an oval might show a special talent that you can't show on other tracks?

Arie Luyendyk was a pretty good journeyman driver in the lower formulas here in Europa, nothing more than that. In CART races on 'normal' and street circuits he was usually fighting for 6th or 7th place, not bad at all in view of the opposition those days - but on ovals he was in another category, top class!

Edited by scheivlak, 23 May 2009 - 21:50.

[Bob Riebe]

Maybe racing on an oval might show a special talent that you can't show on other tracks?

Arie Luyendyk was a pretty good journeyman driver in the lower formulas here in Europa, nothing more than that. In CART races on 'normal' and street circuits he was usually fighting for 6th or 7th place, not bad at all in view of the opposition those days - but on ovals he was in another category, top class!

Indianapolis is not like ANY other oval.

[fines]

But Moraes isn't such a big talent, you don't get blown away by Marko Asmer and Jonathan Kennard if you are!

Maybe he's still developing? Some drivers have difficulties in the junior formulae, and do not blossom until driving much brawnier machinery - I seem to recall Juan Montoya having a hard time beating a fellow countryman (Diego Gutzman?) in Barber SAAB or Dodge, and Niki Lauda didn't exactly shine in the entry classes either!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah but Montoya was impressive in Vauxhalls and F3, then a standout in 3000, then a monster in CART and F1, etc.

Moraes hasn't clicked until this month, and really it's only been practice sessions so far.

[fines]

Yeah but Montoya was impressive in Vauxhalls and F3, then a standout in 3000, then a monster in CART and F1, etc.

That's exactly what I meant! I followed all junior formulae in the nineties, and though his name was familiar to me he didn't start to really register until F3, then impressed in F3000 and as you say, got better and better the more power he had available. Well, in F1 he was actually a disappointment, but that's another story...

As for Moraes, I'm not sufficiently attuned to contemporary racing to know anything about him, so I take it he's no rookie anymore?

[Nigel Beresford]

Where are the tunnels on the Indy lap, and how do they affect downforce? And frankly, how much can a driver talent gain on a lesser one during a lap (discounting car strenghts?) I noticed that Mário Moraes qualified seventh this year, and he wasn't exactly a frontrunner while running in British F3! Meanwhile, Will was down on him. Can a "lesser" driver reach top drawer results by the virtue of the team finding a perfect setup at this particular speedway?

Moraes made some very strong runs in race practice here - it will be interesting to see how he races.

The thing to know is that, for all of the sensors and data we measure, we're very much dependent on driver feedback in order to get the best out of the car because some of the things you're dealing with can't be measured (how do you measure how "bound up" the car feels?). You (team and driver) lead and follow each other to arrive at the "optimum". From personal experience this month, it's been a matter of trying to help Will learn and understand what the car needs to feel like and how it needs to behave in order to go fast. It's easy to make the car so that you can run flat all day, but you will be slow. The driver needs to develop the feel for what the right rear tyre is telling him, rather than the right front, and that takes time, experience, courage and commitment. Clearly Moraes' team has done a good job on setup to this point, so good luck to them.

There are 4 tunnels I know of (maybe there are more?) - one across each straight. The main entrance tunnel is under the short chute between 1 and 2. There is a bump at the entry to 1 which tends to unsettle the car, but this isn't due to a tunnel. This, and the lower banking of 1, plus the effect of the wind is what makes 1 the trickiest corner on the track. The cars are sensitive to ride height variation so the impulse of this bump tends to give a change in aero balance just when you don't want it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's one of things I've always liked about Indianapolis, and oval racing in general. People seem much more sensitive to driver comfort and feel. The F1 engineer-by-numbers approach is technically interesting but leaves me a bit cold. American racing seems to follow a 'practical performance' mantra that puts it much closer to the guys in the motorcycle world.

I think a good engineer has probably done a little of everything. There are days you need to slow the car down by a quarter of a second to get another half out of the driver, and days you need to stop indulging endless fiddling.

[fines]

There is a bump at the entry to 1 which tends to unsettle the car, but this isn't due to a tunnel.

That's interesting! To give this thread a historical perspective (as if it would be in need of one!), that bump was already an issue in the teens and twenties! Supposedly, it's where the old circuit entrance was located, and probably a result thereof!

[ReWind]

As for Moraes, I'm not sufficiently attuned to contemporary racing to know anything about him, so I take it he's no rookie anymore?

Maybe he's still developing?

Mário Moraes simply is YOUNG! He is just 20!
His career (taken from Forix)
2000 - 2003 Kart
2004 (age 15) F.TR Pro Series F.Renault 1.6: 11 races (3 wins, 7 podiums, 5 pole positions)
2005 (age 16) F3 Sudamerica: Bassan Motorsport, 8th, 37 points (1 podium)
2006 (age 17) F3 Sudamerica: Bassan Motorsport, 2nd, 89 points (5 wins, 8 podiums, 1 pole position, 1 fastest lap)
• British F3 (N): Carlin Motorsport, 4 races (2 wins, 4 podiums, 2 pole positions)
• British F3: Carlin Motorsport, 4 races
• F3 Masters: Carlin Motorsport, 30th
2007 (age 18) British F3: Carlin Motorsport, 14th, 43 points
2008 (age 19) IndyCar: Dale Coyne Racing, 21st, 244 points
• Champ Cars: Dale Coyne Racing, 20th
• Indy 300: Dale Coyne Racing, DNF
• Karting
2009 (age 20) Running championship IndyCar: KV Racing Technology, 3 races, 19th, 43 points

Edited by ReWind, 24 May 2009 - 15:17.

[fines]

Hey Nigel, I just saw an interview with your driver!

Pulling for you!!!


P.S. Thanks, Reinhard! Q.E.D.

Edited by fines, 24 May 2009 - 14:49.

[scheivlak]

Indianapolis is not like ANY other oval.

Maybe.
Anyway, Arie was always very good at Phoenix and Michigan as well and once won in Nazareth.
So in his case the difference didn't have that much significance.

[fines]

Maybe he's still developing?

Well, so much for that!

[bigears]

He didn't last as he crashed at Turn 2 on the first lap after a collision with Marco Andretti.

[Alan Cox]

Nigel's comments make fascinating reading - thanks for that.

By the way, is Màrio Moraes the son of former F3 driver Marcos Moraes, who did a season of British F3 in 1974 with the Team Brazil GRD?

[jeze]

He didn't last as he crashed at Turn 2 on the first lap after a collision with Marco Andretti.

The poor boy didn't realise it was his own fault as well You really shouldn't wreck during the first lap!

[fines]

I was wondering that, too...

[fines]

Hey Nigel, I just saw an interview with your driver!

Pulling for you!!!


P.S. Thanks, Reinhard! Q.E.D.

40.6667" on lap 159...

[fines]

Thanks guys, we'll be doing our best.

Congrats, Nigel! #15