27 replies to this topic

[grandprix61]

I found this old neg. from one of my first photographs taken at Milwaukee. Not sure of the year as I was just getting started shooting racing. I would get to what ever race I could while in the service. This could have been 56 or 57? Can anyone help me out with the cars and the year. I thought the pole sitter might have been a Maserati? Seems to me a Maserati was in the 500 and came up to Milwaukee for the next race. I have another shot of a single car and I will post that later. Comments welcome on who is who? Ron Nelson
http://img199.images.../milw599604.jpg

[Buford]

Looks like Jim Rathmann inside row 2 in car 4 so that would be 1960. Think they called it the Ken-Paul Special or something. I do this from memory, I am not a book historian but I recognize the Indy winner. I don't think that is a Maserati, it's some kind of dirt car. In fact, other than Rathmann none of those cars look familiar. Milwaukee sometimes ran a last chance race for non qualifiers. I would suspect that is what this is, except why would Rathmann be in it? Trouble in qualifying? I think the paper historians will have to answer this one.

Edited by Buford, 23 May 2009 - 01:32.

[Rob G]

You're younger than you thought. This is the start of the consolation race for the 1960 Milwaukee 100. Jim Packard leads them to the green with Jimmy Davies beside him.

http://www.motorspor...ta/ch196003.pdf

[Buford]

You're younger than you thought. This is the start of the consolation race for the 1960 Milwaukee 100. Jim Packard leads them to the green with Jimmy Davies beside him.

http://www.motorspor...ta/ch196003.pdf

OK Rob you answered before I was done speculating in my edit it was a non qualifiers race. Nice job. Wow 47 cars showed up that day!!! And Rathmann was a non qualifier.

Edited by Buford, 23 May 2009 - 01:35.

[Rob G]

Thanks Buford. I didn't even know they had non-qualifier races back then, and I just happened to notice it after I went through about 15 or 20 of Mr. Harms's pages.

[Buford]

Thanks Buford. I didn't even know they had non-qualifier races back then, and I just happened to notice it after I went through about 15 or 20 of Mr. Harms's pages.

I knew they had them because I saw some but not that early in years. I think 1965 was my first year at Milwaukee. I suspected it was that though because I would recognize the cars, even if I didn't remember who drove it, that were in the Indy 500 and other than Rathmann, none of those cars looked familiar. That was some real junk. Some damn good drivers though didn't qualify in the top 22 that day if you look on that list you pointed us to.

[Rob G]

Absolutely. That might be one of the finest DNQ lists ever made, come to think of it.

[grandprix61]

Looks like Jim Rathmann inside row 2 in car 4 so that would be 1960. Think they called it the Ken-Paul Special or something. I do this from memory, I am not a book historian but I recognize the Indy winner. I don't think that is a Maserati, it's some kind of dirt car. In fact, other than Rathmann none of those cars look familiar. Milwaukee sometimes ran a last chance race for non qualifiers. I would suspect that is what this is, except why would Rathmann be in it? Trouble in qualifying? I think the paper historians will have to answer this one.

Hmmm. Well everyone seems to be talking about a non-qualifiers race and I had forgot all about that. If that is the year then I must have gone outside to shoot that race. Although in my negs I don't find anything for the feature? Possibly and more likely I didn't have my photo credentials from Competition Press yet and was just a spectator. I manage to get into Indy earlier because a cameraman friend from a TV station in Rockford, Il. got me in. I was just curious about who was in the race and what year. Thanks for all the help. Ron

[fines]

The car on the pole is not a Maserati, and it was hardly "real junk"! It's actually a vey famous racing car, almost an icon: the 1951 Hopkins/Offenhauser. It was a multiple winner in National Championship events, with drivers like Henry Banks and George Amick, and a few weeks after this picture was taken it did win again, in its tenth year of competition, and with a relative newcomer behind the wheel, too.

Thanks for the picture, Ron. I believe there's another Indy front row qualifyer amongst the "junk", will check with my records.


EDITED clumsy Inglish!

Edited by fines, 23 May 2009 - 07:57.

[Buford]

Looking at the non qualifiers list, which is also the cars pictured I think, cars that made the 1960 Indy 500 that year appear to be
4 Rathmann - 1st
16 McWithey - 29th
73 - Don Freeland - 22nd
28 - Troy Ruttman - 20th
48 - Gene Hartley - 14th
23 Dempsey Wilson - 33rd
Also maybe Carter with a number change.

So of the 25 non qualifiers give or take 7 or 8 (more than I thought - can't get a good look at most of them) at least 16 qualified for neither the Indy 500 or this race with only a couple finishing in the top 20 at Indy. In the vernacular of a paper historian, all of these 16 or so, plus all of the qualifiers may be termed significant historical works of art and engineering genius. Not sure, haven't spent much time around paper historians. However among racing car drivers, who I have spent a significant amount of time around, and actually been one, at the very minimum those 16 would be considered "junk" as would in fact about half of the rest of the qualifiers too. Because they had no chance at all to win for whatever reason and therefore race drivers would have termed most of those cars junk or pigs or crap or **** boxes or any of many less than complementary terms. And any dirt car trying to qualify for a pavement race against Indy roadsters would be considered junk regardess of its dirt record, including the one Foyt put on the pole 5 years or so later (which I saw). I called them junk because I know what they would have been called by the actual participants at that time. Pick your poison... junk that can't win but can kill you... or historic treasures documented in ink on paper. Depends on your perspective, in the seat or in the library and what you want to nit pick I guess.

Edited by Buford, 23 May 2009 - 08:12.

[fines]

Strangely, I can find no starting order or list of practice times for this event, so I can only comment on the more obvious cars, meaning mostly the "rare birds".

#42 on the inside of row one is Jim Packard in the 1951 Hopkins/Offenhauser, as already mentioned - I was wrong, though, as Banks never won with this one, only Amick and Packard, but Henry was second in points in 1951, and Amick third in 1957 with the car. In thirteen years, it collected three wins, five seconds and eleven thirds, and twenty-three other top six finishes along with four "pole positions". Apart from Banks, Amick and Packard, it was driven by Mike Nazaruk, Duane Carter, Pat O'Connor, Al Keller, both Rathmann brothers, Rex Easton, Len Duncan, Jimmy Davies, Cotton Farmer, Wayne Weiler and many others. By the way, four of its top six finishes were achieved at Milwaukee while the track was already paved, and this very same car finished sixth at this very same track in both the race preceding this one, and the one following. Junk?

#34 on the outside of row one is Jimmy Davies in the 1960 Turner/Offenhauser, a new car that was built by Harry Turner in Wisconsin from a 1958 Epperly "laydown" by "Watsonizing" it - meaning, putting the engine in upright position and moving it to the left. It was not successful. In its earlier guise as an Epperly, it had finished fourth at Indy, and was even run as a dirt car at Langhorne, with Tony Bettenhausen driving, and Al Dean as temporary owner - that kind of car!

#4 inside of row two, Jim Rathmann in a 1960 Watson/Offenhauser, fresh from winning at Indy, but that's all this particular car ever achieved, actually, in six years of trying and fifteen race appearances it mainly chalked up retirements. But it also scores in the "odd bird" category, by appearing with a wing at Indy in 1962, probably the first car other than a Super Modified to sport one, five years before Jim Hall and six years before Colin Chapman thought of that. The "1960 type" of the Watson Indy Car line was uniquely successful, too, as every one of the four cars built won one National Championship race each, and two of them the Indy 500.

The next car I can make out is #28 on the inside of row five, and I was right: it's the 1958 Watson/Offenhauser that started from the Indy 500 front row that year, and after extensive repairs following the first lap crash it still managed to finish sixth. Real racing drivers like Buford considered this car junk, but Lloyd Ruby was apparently a paper historian who didn't know much about racing cars, and managed to win a 200-mile race with it at the very same track only a year or so later. Other paper historians, like Troy Ruttman and Don Freeland had good success with this piece of junk, too.

#62, the dark car on the outside of row six, is another rare one: apparently, it started out as a Kurtis 500G-2, one of only three cars of the fifteen or so of the Kurtis 500G design with a left-hand driving position, and the engine canted slightly over to the right. Another unsuccesful design, but Myron "Ozzie" Osborn purchased one and had it rebuilt in 1960 as this contraption, with the driver moved to the right, and the engine now in upright position - in other words, exactly like the original 500G! The car was still a failure...

The white car directly behind Ruttman appears to be Roger McCluskey in the #24 Art Koopman Offy, a California car from Whittier, I believe. I have an idea where that one comes from, but no solid knowledge, so I better keep schtumm. #64 behind that is Tommy Copp in the 1957 Shannon/Offenhauser, based on a 1953 Kurtis 500 - it was unsuccessful, regardless of configuration, in ten years of trying. Behind that comes Ebb Rose in the 1959 Zink/Offenhauser, an interesting and good looking car, but also not successful. Next appears to be a Kurtis 500G, probably Leroy Foutch's car with Bud Tingelstad driving, and then Jimmy Bryan in the 1960 Salih/Offenhauser, another car whose success didn't quite match its looks - it wasn't a lemon, no, but it was a stunningly good loooking car that should have won heaps of races, but didn't. Bryan, of course, was to perish only a fortnight later at Langhorne...

Edited by fines, 23 May 2009 - 09:52.

[just me again]

Hi
Seeing Jim Rathmann in he´s 1960 Indy winning car, i was wondering if Jim Rathmann personality was less than stellar, or if this only is the opinion of Smokey Yunick, who i think you can say, felt slightly overlooked as perhaps/perhaps not Jim´s chief mechanic at Indy.

Bjørn

[RA Historian]

But it also scores in the "odd bird" category, by appearing with a wing at Indy in 1962, probably the first car other than a Super Modified to sport one, five years before Jim Hall and six years before Colin Chapman thought of that.

But a good number of years behind Michael May and the winged Porsche 550 Spyder.....
Tom

[fines]

But a good number of years behind Michael May and the winged Porsche 550 Spyder.....
Tom

Ahh, yes... my ignorance of sports cars coming through, again!

[Tom Glowacki]

Hi
Seeing Jim Rathmann in he´s 1960 Indy winning car, i was wondering if Jim Rathmann personality was less than stellar, or if this only is the opinion of Smokey Yunick, who i think you can say, felt slightly overlooked as perhaps/perhaps not Jim´s chief mechanic at Indy.

Bjørn

Yunick's take on Rathmann is in the chapter in his autobiography entitled "50 Good Drivers and an Asshole". You might say Smoky placed Rathmann in class by himself. I've not seen anyone else take his side in that dispute, however.

[ensign14]

Rathmann entered Indy in partnership with Gus Grissom, he was friendly with a lot of the early astronauts and supplied them with cars, so he was no flake, so to speak.

[Buford]

Rathmann entered Indy in partnership with Gus Grissom, he was friendly with a lot of the early astronauts and supplied them with cars, so he was no flake, so to speak.

A couple winning capable cars at that moment (not years before) out of 25 in the non-qualifiers race? As a said... real junk.

Other than getting an autograph I didn't know Jim Rathmann but never heard bad stuff about him. Dick Rathmann however my family knew well. He was running the Ford Stock Car program and offered my dad a factory Nascar deal several times. Turning him down was my dad later said his biggest mistake. The deal eventually went to another Chicago rival Fred Lorenzen who was no match for our driver outside of O'Hare Stadium where he had his buddies blocking for him. At the time the South was a hellhole and my dad didn't want to move the family there, he had a business to run, and they were making lots of money running locally, more than Ford was offering to run Nascar. Lorenzen however did real well with the deal. Nobody envisioned how big Nascar would become even in the 1960s let alone now. Daytona Speedway was just built at the time. It was a pretty minor series at the time we were talking to Rathmann about it.

[ensign14]

To put the value of the championship in context, the total purse for that race was worth a little bit less than 3rd at Indy that year (which was Paul Goldsmith proving NASCAR drivers didn't need doors).

[Buford]

To put the value of the championship in context, the total purse for that race was worth a little bit less than 3rd at Indy that year (which was Paul Goldsmith proving NASCAR drivers didn't need doors).

Paul Goldsmith was very good, Indy Cars, Nascar, motorcycles. Drove for Ray Nichels whose son Terry was in our Quarter Midget Club.

[grandprix61]

You're younger than you thought. This is the start of the consolation race for the 1960 Milwaukee 100. Jim Packard leads them to the green with Jimmy Davies beside him.

http://www.motorspor...ta/ch196003.pdf

I had a few of these scanned and used a prefex of 59 on the files. I will dig out the original negs to see if they have a 1960 printed somewhere. But, thanks for the help. what is the home page address for the entry list line you had in your post. Would like to be able to look up more of that stuff. Regards, Ron N

[grandprix61]

I had a few of these scanned and used a prefex of 59 on the files. I will dig out the original negs to see if they have a 1960 printed somewhere. But, thanks for the help. what is the home page address for the entry list line you had in your post. Would like to be able to look up more of that stuff. Regards, Ron N

I have a web site: www.prairiestreetart.com and some of you have maybe looked there. Lots of old stuff and may I say prints can be ordered. Just want to let those who are interested can order them. I won't be getting rich here. Here is another shot from that race. Don't know if they are on a first lap or just getting ready for one more go around. I sure am surprised at all of the knowledge out there about the old days.
http://img39.imagesh.../milw599601.jpg

[ray b]

what is the car running 6th in the last photo or 3rd car on the inside line
looks like the same car in the first photo running second from last
something looks odd about that car too me!!!!!

[fines]

what is the car running 6th in the last photo or 3rd car on the inside line
looks like the same car in the first photo running second from last
something looks odd about that car too me!!!!!

It's also a Kurtis 500G, the same type of car as the other one - good eye! The driver is Norm Hall, and the owner Roy McKay who had three of those! This is #36, originally owned by 1950 World Champion Nino Farina in 1957, it seems. #37 was qualified tenth for the main event by Bob Veith, #35 apparently wasn't entered.

Thanks, Ron, for posting this second picture, it clears up a lot of things about the starting order! We can now see it's McWithey in fourth, with the #16 "Hoover Motor Express" Epperly, another piece of junk - finished fourth at Indy in '59, and seventh in '61. Fifth is Hall, and sixth Dick Rathmann in the #45 "Braund Plywood" Epperly, 8th at Indy in '61, and second here at Milwaukee two years later, driven by one A. J. Foyt, probably another paper historian - he also qualified the car on pole at Trenton that year.

Not in the second picture, but seventh has to be Eddie Sachs in the #6 "Dean Van Lines" Ewing Watson-copy, a piece of junk that collected ten top six finishes in five years, including a close second and pole position at Indy. Eighth is Red Amick in the #93 Iddings/Offenhauser, a real maverick racing car! Built in 1960 as a Sprint/Champ Car mongrel, it wasn't very successful until the owners (Howard and John Iddings of Greenville, Ohio) cut out eight inches from the wheelbase, put in a small block Chevy and ran it exclusively as a Sprint Car for twelve years, collecting five wins and several track records in that time. It was the first car ever to lap a half-mile track in under 17 seconds at Winchester in 1968, and driver Sonny Ates went on to lower that record twice later that same year at Dayton!

Ninth would be Ruttman, and tenth Bob Cleberg in the #61 "Detroiter Mobile Homes" Epperly/Offenhauser, a 1957 car that finished second that year at Indy, and fifth in 1958. It also won at Milwaukee in one of those years, but I suppose that's past glory - still, it's quite a unique car because it finished in the top seven in all of its first seven starts. Eleventh appears to be McCluskey, and twelfth is another rare bird, the #53 "Wyandotte Tool" Meskowski Champ Car, driven by Bill Homeier. Then Copp in the Shannon, Tolan in the #62 rebuilt Kurtis 500G-2, Rose in the Zink, and sixteenth then has to be Dempsey Wilson in the #23 "Bryant Heating & Cooling" Kurtis 500G, best result fifth at Trenton in '58. Last row Tingelstad and Bryan.

Gee, that was fun!

[Rob G]

I had a few of these scanned and used a prefex of 59 on the files. I will dig out the original negs to see if they have a 1960 printed somewhere. But, thanks for the help. what is the home page address for the entry list line you had in your post. Would like to be able to look up more of that stuff. Regards, Ron N

http://www.motorspor...p/summaries.asp

[grandprix61]

It's also a Kurtis 500G, the same type of car as the other one - good eye! The driver is Norm Hall, and the owner Roy McKay who had three of those! This is #36, originally owned by 1950 World Champion Nino Farina in 1957, it seems. #37 was qualified tenth for the main event by Bob Veith, #35 apparently wasn't entered.

Thanks, Ron, for posting this second picture, it clears up a lot of things about the starting order! We can now see it's McWithey in fourth, with the #16 "Hoover Motor Express" Epperly, another piece of junk - finished fourth at Indy in '59, and seventh in '61. Fifth is Hall, and sixth Dick Rathmann in the #45 "Braund Plywood" Epperly, 8th at Indy in '61, and second here at Milwaukee two years later, driven by one A. J. Foyt, probably another paper historian - he also qualified the car on pole at Trenton that year.

Not in the second picture, but seventh has to be Eddie Sachs in the #6 "Dean Van Lines" Ewing Watson-copy, a piece of junk that collected ten top six finishes in five years, including a close second and pole position at Indy. Eighth is Red Amick in the #93 Iddings/Offenhauser, a real maverick racing car! Built in 1960 as a Sprint/Champ Car mongrel, it wasn't very successful until the owners (Howard and John Iddings of Greenville, Ohio) cut out eight inches from the wheelbase, put in a small block Chevy and ran it exclusively as a Sprint Car for twelve years, collecting five wins and several track records in that time. It was the first car ever to lap a half-mile track in under 17 seconds at Winchester in 1968, and driver Sonny Ates went on to lower that record twice later that same year at Dayton!

Ninth would be Ruttman, and tenth Bob Cleberg in the #61 "Detroiter Mobile Homes" Epperly/Offenhauser, a 1957 car that finished second that year at Indy, and fifth in 1958. It also won at Milwaukee in one of those years, but I suppose that's past glory - still, it's quite a unique car because it finished in the top seven in all of its first seven starts. Eleventh appears to be McCluskey, and twelfth is another rare bird, the #53 "Wyandotte Tool" Meskowski Champ Car, driven by Bill Homeier. Then Copp in the Shannon, Tolan in the #62 rebuilt Kurtis 500G-2, Rose in the Zink, and sixteenth then has to be Dempsey Wilson in the #23 "Bryant Heating & Cooling" Kurtis 500G, best result fifth at Trenton in '58. Last row Tingelstad and Bryan.

Gee, that was fun!

That was certainly informative. Here is a shot of a dirt car. Maybe in practice or during the race. Not sure of who it is? thanks for the post. Ron http://img132.images...milwasprint.jpg

[fines]

Bit of an unusual paint job for the car, but I'd say it's the 1956 Kuzma/Offenhauser of the Sumar team, #48 Gene Hartley. The Phil Harms listing on motorsport.com has him in the team's Kurtis roadster, apparently a mistake! As an aside, this was the last ever appearance of the team in Champ Car racing - qualified too slow, and did not start the consy.

[Michael Ferner]

Meanwhile, I have found the qualifying times and results of the consy, and there had actually been twenty starters, with the last row missing from the pictures. Also, the race was stopped and restarted after a minor crash on the first lap involving four cars (Cleberg, Homeier, Bryan and Wilson), but of those only Cleberg's was unable to make the restart. Interestingly, though, Jim McWithey is reported to have withdrawn in protest over this procedure!

There remains one minor mystery, however: the results list Cliff Griffith finishing in 18th, and according to Phil Harms he was driving the William Tucker #29, a Kurtis/Offenhauser 500G; also, Johnnie Tolan is listed as a non-starter. The first picture in this thread shows Tolan's #62 in the line-up, though, and Griffith's car is not to be seen although it should be positioned between Tommy Copp and Ebb Rose on the inside of the line-up, according to practice times. I believe this may be a mistake in the results, and it should be Tolan in 18th, and Griffith non-starting! Both had qualified next to each other (Tolan 38th, Griffith 39th), and somebody must have noted the non-start in the wrong line on the list of qualifiers - apparently, it was a last-minute withdrawal as the grid behind lined up slightly out of order: the inside starters all moving up one spot, with the outside starters remaining in position, not an unusual scenario with last-minute withdrawals, when the cars are already lined up on the dummy grid, and it's too late to rearrange the rows according to practice times. Though both cars (Griffith's #29 and Tolan's #62) were basically identical in design, Griffith's had a light colour (probably white) at Indy only a week earlier (see Littleton/Enoch "The Roadsters of Indianapolis", p103), while Tolan's was dark (purple, ebda. p109), and the number appears to be visible in the picture in this thread, so there's little chance of confusion with the cars.

[ZOOOM]

In 1960 my sister was graduating from Marquette University in Milwaukee. The whole family went up for the ceremony.
We stayed at the Holiday Inn on Wisconsin Ave (the town's main drag).
I was board waiting around for the party to start so on Saturday evening I wandered around the parking garage.
There, sitting on a four wheel trailer, was an offy owned and run by some guy named Ebb Rose of the E.B. Rose Trucking Company.
The cockpit was covered by a form fitting tarp so I couldn't get into it.
I think I musta spent over an hour just running my hands over it and dreaming.
My father finally had to come get me....
Some things you just never forget...

ZOOOM