16 replies to this topic

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Was it the Castrol 6 Hour, endurance racing or maybe MCN Streetbike series which was responsible for the change from 'proper race bikes' to the modified road bikes which pretty much dominate modern racing? I suppose Moto GP is still in essence a race series for real racing bikes, or is it? Personally I think you should be allowed to 'run what you brung'at the top level.My thoughts are that it's how each manufacturer (or home tuner ) interprets what makes something with two wheels go around a track quicker than something else.

Proddy racing was usually really exciting with the dodgy handling, Roadrunners or TT100s, a set of gas shocks and two pairs of undies standard with every bike! So was it the GSXR750 that did it in 1985?
I suppose I miss the variety of machinery and the ingenuity of riders (usually mechanics too) in developing machines which worked better. Watching a big hefty 4 cylinder 4 stoke against TZs was great. I reckon The Earlystock Club is a brilliant formula as it gives the home tuner a chance to TeeZedify an RD and stand a chance against the really quick 4 strokes.


Anyone help me out on this confusing issue?


David

[picblanc]

Good question! MotoGp can be exciting on sadly rare occasions these days, as it was on Sunday at Mugello, but that was due in the main to the changing track conditions.
This nonsence of getting rid of 250cc two strokes is a big mistake, Ezpeleta complained last year (or year before) that it was dominated by one brand (Aprilia) so what do they do!? have a completely one brand series!!! and suprise suprise who will provide the engines for this 600 series...... Honda, I didn't see that one coming!!?
I hope these new 600.s share no common parts with the road bike i:e crankcases etc etc, else they will have to be banned as was the WCM MotoGP bike a few years a go.
The 250 racing has been outstanding this season, and if its because of the polluting twostroke engine? really!! they are no where near as bad as they used to be, they have to use unleaded fuel now, its much cleaner than the days of AVGAS/rocket fuels, etc etc.
Regards the GSXR 750 & Streetbike series, I stopped going when that happened, I got bored watching the CBR1100 (3of them, Gardner, Haslam, Dunlop) out front all the time, and the rest wobbling round half a lap behind on Katana's, FZ's etc,!!
Then along came the RC30, OW01 etc, great bikes, so racing bred better road bikes (which I suppose is the point of the exercise these days!?)
Even now although "modern" racing is better (the bikes handle the road bikes are first & foremost designed to be raced), I dont get excited by seeing them be it BSB/WSB/AMA etc, they all look & sound the same, quick they are indeed, but I have no passion for them at all, having been 4/5 times in the last three years, you go into the paddock & there is a CBR/ZXR/R something or other, in one garage/awning, next door is an identical bike just with differant coloured clothes on!! repeated through out the paddock, no inovation anymore?
Its no coincidence that our (UK) best chance of a MotoGP World Champ will come from two stroke proper race bikes, probably from the 125 class (Smith, Redding, Webb etc) not road based diesels.
Rant over,
Have a nice day/evening.
G.

[Greystone]

Picblanc,

I am as disappointed as you to see the demise of the 250 two strokes. In my view they were always the most complete racing motorcycles. They had the best balance between power and agility.

However I can see why Dorna had to do something. Realistically only one manufacturer makes a racing 250 that a team can lease. My understanding is that the quality of Aprilias also varies markedly and is dependant on the amount of euros that the team is able to pay. I would like to see a field of competitive 250s from a number of different manufacturers. This would require Honda, Yamaha, KTM etc. to start building competitive two strokes again and make them available but the reality is that this is not going to happen.

I think that there is cause for optimism with the Moto2 class. After all, it is only the engine/gearbox unit that is to be standard. The rest of the motorcycle will be bespoke with a lot of design freedom. The standard engine/gearbox unit should keep costs down and enable more teams to compete at the same level.

Just because they are using an engine based on a CBR 600 does not necessarily mean that the finished motorcycles will be World Supersport clones. Hopefully the bikes will end up more akin to 250s on steroids. This, I think is more important, that the finished products are real racing bikes that have a good power/agility balance enabling lots of teams to compete at the front of the field on equal terms. When it comes down to it, my view is that this is more important than the source and type of the engine.

My concern here is that we don’t see a class of thoroughbreds replaced by tractor racing and hopefully this is not going to happen.

Andrew

[fil2.8]

Picblanc,

I am as disappointed as you to see the demise of the 250 two strokes. In my view they were always the most complete racing motorcycles. They had the best balance between power and agility.

However I can see why Dorna had to do something. Realistically only one manufacturer makes a racing 250 that a team can lease. My understanding is that the quality of Aprilias also varies markedly and is dependant on the amount of euros that the team is able to pay. I would like to see a field of competitive 250s from a number of different manufacturers. This would require Honda, Yamaha, KTM etc. to start building competitive two strokes again and make them available but the reality is that this is not going to happen.

I think that there is cause for optimism with the Moto2 class. After all, it is only the engine/gearbox unit that is to be standard. The rest of the motorcycle will be bespoke with a lot of design freedom. The standard engine/gearbox unit should keep costs down and enable more teams to compete at the same level.

Just because they are using an engine based on a CBR 600 does not necessarily mean that the finished motorcycles will be World Supersport clones. Hopefully the bikes will end up more akin to 250s on steroids. This, I think is more important, that the finished products are real racing bikes that have a good power/agility balance enabling lots of teams to compete at the front of the field on equal terms. When it comes down to it, my view is that this is more important than the source and type of the engine.

My concern here is that we don’t see a class of thoroughbreds replaced by tractor racing and hopefully this is not going to happen.

Andrew

Well said Andrew , you've raised some good points there , but I shall withhold judgement

[picblanc]

I will get over the loss of 250 two strokes (eventually) but why one make engine, why not any manufactures engine/gearbox? Its supposed to be GP racing after all, why not make MotoGP one engine/gearbox only? that will keep the costs down as well.

[10kDA]

Personally I think it was started off by the American Motorcyclist Association dropping their Formula 1 class for Superbikes, most likely at the pressured behest of the France family. The Daytona organizers NASCARized US roadracing and if Daytona was to switch to Superbikes, I believe it was the green light for sanctioning organizations and promotors the world over. I am certain the manufacturers loved it too, since they would now be able to pitch the bikes in their showrooms as "The exact machine used by (fill in the blank) to win the (200, World Championship, Podunk 50, whichever sounded best)".

[10kDA]

>>My concern here is that we don’t see a class of thoroughbreds replaced by tractor racing and hopefully this is not going to happen.<<

If it's a standard engine & gearbox it already has. Supersport will probably provide better, more exciting races and Supersport is dull as H*ll.

Chris

Edited by 10kDA, 05 July 2009 - 12:14.

[Greystone]

If it's a standard engine & gearbox it already has. Supersport will probably provide better, more exciting races and Supersport is dull as H*ll.

Chris

We probably should be discussing this in the Motorcycle racing thread in the Racing Comments forum but it seems that it's being invaded by fanboys at the moment and I feel that the readership here will give more considered opinions.

Anyway Chris I fail to see how you can think that Supersport is as "dull as H*ll" at the moment. Have you been watching the Cal Crutchlow and Eugene Laverty show in the WSS series? Agreed that the bikes are road bike based but Cal and Eugene have probably produced the most furious battles of any World championship series this year.

I suppose it depends on whether you think that racing is primarily about the machinery or the riders. I'm firmly in the riders camp. If you look at the current state of 250gp racing, only those with the best Aprillias (= deepest pockets) or a works Honda can win. I agree with most of the people here in that what I would like to see is a quality field of 250gp bikes with a lot more riders in with a chance of winning, but that is not going to happen. As it stands the 250 class is dying a slow and painful death. In my view a competitive series, even if this means a standard engine and gearbox, is preferable to the processions that are occurring at present.

Unfortunately gp racing classes appear to go through cycles of competitiveness followed by periods of dull drawn out races. The close racing periods appear to have happened when a lot of competitors had essentially similar machinery, such as the late eighties/early nineties when there were Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan etc., the days when everyone rode a Suzuki RG500 and the early years of the four stroke Motogp series. How anyone can say that the golden years were when Agostini nearly lapped the entire field on the lone MV Agusta is beyond me.

Ultimately I don't see the single power unit as an issue. The point to me is competitive racing and I'm prepared to give Moto2 a chance to deliver that.

Andrew

[Coupe Kawasaki]

We probably should be discussing this in the Motorcycle racing thread in the Racing Comments forum but it seems that it's being invaded by fanboys at the moment and I feel that the readership here will give more considered opinions.

Anyway Chris I fail to see how you can think that Supersport is as "dull as H*ll" at the moment. Have you been watching the Cal Crutchlow and Eugene Laverty show in the WSS series? Agreed that the bikes are road bike based but Cal and Eugene have probably produced the most furious battles of any World championship series this year.

I suppose it depends on whether you think that racing is primarily about the machinery or the riders. I'm firmly in the riders camp. If you look at the current state of 250gp racing, only those with the best Aprillias (= deepest pockets) or a works Honda can win. I agree with most of the people here in that what I would like to see is a quality field of 250gp bikes with a lot more riders in with a chance of winning, but that is not going to happen. As it stands the 250 class is dying a slow and painful death. In my view a competitive series, even if this means a standard engine and gearbox, is preferable to the processions that are occurring at present.

Unfortunately gp racing classes appear to go through cycles of competitiveness followed by periods of dull drawn out races. The close racing periods appear to have happened when a lot of competitors had essentially similar machinery, such as the late eighties/early nineties when there were Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan etc., the days when everyone rode a Suzuki RG500 and the early years of the four stroke Motogp series. How anyone can say that the golden years were when Agostini nearly lapped the entire field on the lone MV Agusta is beyond me.

Ultimately I don't see the single power unit as an issue. The point to me is competitive racing and I'm prepared to give Moto2 a chance to deliver that.

Andrew

I don't think there is a choice on this forum Andrew, the concensus seems to be that it's about both the bikes AND the riders which tends to cloud the issue. Whether or not Ago won by a mile is irrelevent since it's not a race without plenty of underdogs in the field. The five riders you mention rode different makes/configurations in the main so perhaps that was an opportunity for the tuners? Stu might have something to say on 'similar machinery'

Why not make 250 engines available to teams? Is that any different or would Honda not win still?They don't seem to be doing too well in MotoGP

Thank goodness there are enthusiasts who continue to restore/develop/race the classics as I doubt I shall be going to watch a classic 'Honda GP2 Cup' in 30 years if I'm still here. Take a look at T20.COM and see the work Lea Gourlay has done on Adrian Bakers Suzuki. That's what this forum is about isn't it? (I think Adrian is at Brands this week and Chimay next, any pics would be nice if anyone is going )

MZ racing was relatively exciting, wasn't hugely expensive and gave some close racing, just not fast enough! Just chuck the keys in a Honda hat and see who wins and let's not bother developing anything, far cheaper. Racing will obviosly be close then. My point was to try and determine when race bikes became proddie bikes across the board. The 250 and 125 classes are the only ones left as pure race bikes aren't they? Maybe MotoGP is and I'm missing the 500s too much!

This thread belongs here for us old farts who realize something changed, for better or worse

I'm going out on my T500 for an early morning ride just to hear a two stroke and sniff the R I stuck in.


David

[Herr Wankel]

For me one of the most interesting parts of our 'game' is the diversity of makes,and the (enthusiastic) skill applied over the years to them.The new series will for me be a bit like opening a packet of corn flakes.Just add milk (fuel) and eat.This time only the box will be different,same old flakes inside.No doubt the racing will be close, but the sound (all important for me ) will be the same(as will the motors)
Best (most diverse) club races for me were;Ron Leighton-Greeves beating Mick Grice-Vladivar Yam TZ,and David East-Velocette beating Pete Thurley-Ex Nev Doyle Kawa H2 both at Mallory.Match that for contrast MotoGP2 or whatever its called.
Time to uncork another bottle of 1 euro Merlot.Rant over!
HW

[Coupe Kawasaki]

For me one of the most interesting parts of our 'game' is the diversity of makes,and the (enthusiastic) skill applied over the years to them.The new series will for me be a bit like opening a packet of corn flakes.Just add milk (fuel) and eat.This time only the box will be different,same old flakes inside.No doubt the racing will be close, but the sound (all important for me ) will be the same(as will the motors)
Best (most diverse) club races for me were;Ron Leighton-Greeves beating Mick Grice-Vladivar Yam TZ,and David East-Velocette beating Pete Thurley-Ex Nev Doyle Kawa H2 both at Mallory.Match that for contrast MotoGP2 or whatever its called.
Time to uncork another bottle of 1 euro Merlot.Rant over!
HW

Too right HW! Lea Gourlay stuffing the R1s and GSXRs a few years back at the Derby Phoenix meet at Cadwell on a Yam 500 (real race bike). From the back of the field too!

Was it Peter Inchley doing Lutonboy at Mallory on a Greeves or Starmaker or something like that? A medal for Brian Crichton for the Norton rotary too! Having a moan as I'm jealous of everyone at Brands
We used to call that Merlot 'Red Devil' down at Navarrenx.

David

PS One make motor might be OK if it's an unlimited two stroke twin (Banshee 660 comes to mind)

[exclubracer]

Too right HW! Lea Gourlay stuffing the R1s and GSXRs a few years back at the Derby Phoenix meet at Cadwell on a Yam 500 (real race bike). From the back of the field too!

Was it Peter Inchley doing Lutonboy at Mallory on a Greeves or Starmaker or something like that? A medal for Brian Crichton for the Norton rotary too! Having a moan as I'm jealous of everyone at Brands
We used to call that Merlot 'Red Devil' down at Navarrenx.

David

PS One make motor might be OK if it's an unlimited two stroke twin (Banshee 660 comes to mind)

[Greystone]

I'm going out on my T500 for an early morning ride just to hear a two stroke and sniff the R I stuck in.

David

David,

Before you guys assume that I am one of those poppet valve nuts I would like to point out that I am the proud owner of a 1984 Yamaha RD500LC (RZ500 I believe for the benefit of those in the colonies). I also have a 1967 BSA Bantam but that hasn't actually run for about 20 years.

So yes I am a two stroke man at heart and would love to see them raced regularly at GP level but unfortunately the world has moved on and I'm afraid that it's just not going to happen again.

Andrew

P.S. The post classic 250 and 350 races at Brands yesterday were brilliant, wall to wall TZs.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Hi Andrew!

I think you are right, this is finally the end for the two strokes, though I think for some time it has been regarded as a stepping stone to the big class rather than a respected championship in it's own right. I think you'll end up with a load of clone riders on clone bikes. Typical TV fodder for popcorn chomping families who like to sit in comfy chairs and cheer for their favourite 'character' without knowing a thing about the sport.
A bit of alignment with F1 here? I bet Aprilia aren't happy that Honda have to change the rules to win, but that's money isn't it? I will really miss the brilliant riders who have made this class so entertaining since I began riding. Many of them never wanted to do 500s since they were better suited and enjoyed the smaller bikes more. Didn't SMB say his favourite was the Honda Six? Maybe it wasn't 'point and squirt' then.

I have a few 'UJMs' to play with (just got my AM23 for the GSX11) and hopefully run in Ahrma with maybe an invite to guest riders to come and show them how it's done sometime when we are more organized.

I still rib my wife about colonial stuff. Revolution indeed! 1776 was a colonial uprising we chose to ignore while dealing with France (sorry Phillipe!) I still don't understand my 'KZ' sidepanels, triples trees, fork ears and weed wackers.

I'm probably going to enjoy GP2, I just feel the 250s could have been kept anyway rather like coal mines and British Leyland.

I wish I'd been at Brands, though Mid-Ohio is rapidly approaching

Cheers, David.

[fil2.8]

David,

Before you guys assume that I am one of those poppet valve nuts I would like to point out that I am the proud owner of a 1984 Yamaha RD500LC (RZ500 I believe for the benefit of those in the colonies). I also have a 1967 BSA Bantam but that hasn't actually run for about 20 years.

So yes I am a two stroke man at heart and would love to see them raced regularly at GP level but unfortunately the world has moved on and I'm afraid that it's just not going to happen again.

Andrew

P.S. The post classic 250 and 350 races at Brands yesterday were brilliant, wall to wall TZs.

Andrew as a part of the tz crew at Brands over the weekend , I have to say , that yes , it was great , and we are moving forward at quite a rate , -----wish you had come up and introduced yourself
Phil .....entrant / owner tz #10 ridden by Stu Melling

Edited by fil2.8, 13 July 2009 - 22:15.

[TZ350]

Andrew as a part of the tz crew at Brands over the weekend , I have to say , that yes , it was great , and we are moving forward at quite a rate , -----wish you had come up and introduced yourself
Phil .....entrant / owner tz #10 ridden by Stu Melling

Hi Phil so how did it go mate ? sounds positive by the sound of your post . btw was it on the indy or full circuit?

[fil2.8]

Hi Phil so how did it go mate ? sounds positive by the sound of your post . btw was it on the indy or full circuit?

Watcha Arfur yeh not to bad , first race #25 on the grid , up to 9th by Surtees on the first lap , then went grass tracking -- (now nick-named 'Flymo' ) so last , up to 23rd in 6 laps ( only 7 lap races )
Second race 12th from 23rd on the grid
Third race lying 8th , catching 7th and 6th , then part of petrol tap lever seal rubber sucked into r/h carb , causing slight seizure
But pretty happy overall
All races on the short circuit
All races full grids ---40 ish

Edited by fil2.8, 14 July 2009 - 17:08.