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First races after WW2


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#1 fines

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Posted 17 October 2000 - 19:31

On Sep 9, 1945 the AGACI organised three races in the Bois de Bologne in Paris. There was the Coupe Robert Benoist (1500cc), the Coupe de la Libération (2000cc) and the Coupe des Prisonniers (over 2000cc). The last two races are covered in detail by Paul Sheldon in his "Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing, Vol. 4", even if he is unable to give any details for the retirements. Also he only mentions the first five finishers of the first race: 1st Gordini (Simca), 2nd Brunot (Riley), 3rd Bouchard (Salmson), 4th Brault (Simca) and 5th Polledry (Aston-Martin). That race was apparently run over 36 laps of a 2.779 km circuit. Anyone out there who knows more about these races, especially the 1500cc event? How many and who started the race, who finished and who retired after how many laps? Anyone with the number of laps completed or at least the order of the retirements of the other two events?

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#2 Flicker

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Posted 17 October 2000 - 20:54

from Quintin Cloud's http://www.fortuneci...mpia/grange/54/

1945 Coupe Robert Benoist
9 September - Bois de Boulogne - Paris: 36 laps * 2.826 km = 101.74 km
1500 CC Voiturettes Class

Pole Position: N/A
Fastest Lap: Gordini Simca 60.5 MP/H

Results:
1 Aldo Gordini Simca 36 *
2 Brunot Riley 36
3 Bouchard Salmson 36
4 Brault Simca
5 Polledry Aston Martin
No more data available.

Note: * This car was the winner of the Index of Performance in the 1939 24 Hours of Le Mans
---------
1945 Coupe De La Liberation
9 September - Bois de Boulogne - Paris: 36 laps * 2.826 km = 101.74 km
1500 CC S/C , 2000 CC U/S Voiturettes Class

Pole Position: N/A
Fastest Lap: Louveau Maserati 66.2 MP/H

Results:
1 Henri Louveau Maserati 6CM 1h01m09.7
2 Auguste Veuillet MG K3 Magnette 35
3 Lascaud Amilcar G36 Pegase 34
4 Jean Ondet Amilcar C0 32
5 Maurice Mestivier Amilcar C6 31
6 Rene Bonnet DB 31
7 Victor Polledry Alfa Romeo 1750 SS 25

Did Not Finish:
Roger Loyer Amilcar
Commandant Givon Bugatti 37
Jean Judet BNC 527
Auguste Lachaize Amilcar
Eugene Martin Salmson
Marcel Balsa Bugatti 39A/51A
Roger Deho Maserati 6CM
Georges Grignard Amilcar C6
----------
1945 Coupe Des Prisonniers
9 September - Bois de Boulogne - Paris: 43 laps x 2.826 km = 121.52 km
+/- 3000 CC S/C AND U/S Voiturettes Class

Pole Position: N/A
Fastest Lap: Wimile Bugatti 72 MPH

Results:
1 Jean-Pierre Wimille Bugatti 59/50 B 1h03m33.3
2 Raymond Sommer Talbot T26 MC 1h04m53.3
3 Eugene Chaboud Delahaye 135S 40
4 Henri Trillaud Delahaye 135S 39
5 Marcel Balsa Bugatti 51 38
6 Joseph Chotard Delahaye 135S 37
7 Louis Villeneuve Delahaye 135S 34

Did Not Finish:
Maurice Trintignant Bugatti 35C/51 ? Unknown
Raymond de Saugé Bugatti 57S ? Unknown
Paul Friderich Bugatti 55 ? Unknown
Georges Grignard Delahaye 135S ? Unknown
Philippe Etancelin Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 ? Crash
Emile Cornet Delahaye 135S ? Unknown
Roger Wormser Delahaye 135S ? Unknown
Louis Gerard Maserati 8CM ? Crash
Pierre Levegh Talbot 150C ? Unknown
-------
Posted Image

BTW, in Doug Nye's History of the GP Car 1945-65 mentioned that "Amédée Gordini won the Benoist Cup at 59 mph in his 1100cc Simca-Fiat special."
[p][Edited by Flicker on 10-17-2000]

#3 fines

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Posted 17 October 2000 - 22:07

Yes, it was certainly Amédée Gordini. Aldo did not race before 1950, I think.

Thanks for your contribution, although at a first glance it looks like it's pretty much the same information as provided by Sheldon. Still, with the quality of this board there should be more to unearth!?

#4 Felix Muelas

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Posted 17 October 2000 - 22:24

Michael

Yep, the info on Quintin Cloud´s site about these races is Sheldon´s. I provided it, so I know.

I sincerely hope someone suddenly appears and tells us more about these races. Álthough I am pretty sure I do not have found anything more, a review of some of my old French sources might not be completely out of the question...

:)
Felix


#5 Darren Galpin

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 06:53

Fines - I can't help but ask if you are the same Michael Ferner who raced in the Infineon Technologies sponsored car in the Porsche Super Cup this year?

#6 fines

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 14:52

No, Darren, up until now I wasn't aware that I was racing a Super Cup Porsche, tell me more!;)

#7 Darren Galpin

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 15:18

I saw one driven by "Michael Ferner" spinning out of a race this year, and it was sponsored by Infineon Technologies, who I work for. Then I noticed the same name crop up here, and I wondered....

#8 fines

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 15:35

Well, if he spun it certainly wasn't me!!! I would have gone on to win, naturally... :lol: BTW, the only connection I have with Infineon is that my father once bought some shares and, again naturally sold them at the wrong moment. Still paid him a handsome dividend, though not enough to buy me Porsche :sigh:

#9 Francis

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 16:00

In the June 1999 issue of 'Motor Sport' magazine the From our Archives feature covered this topic, the piece was taken from their November 1945 issue and entitled:

'THE FIRST POST-WAR RACING'

Here are a few paragraphs;

The Robert Benoist Cup race attracted 17 entries and was run over 36 laps. Starters included Gordini and Cayeux on Simca Fiats of 1100cc, Brunot and Ferry on Rileys, Savoye's Singer, Alin's small Simca Fiat, Polledry's Aston Martin, and Bouchard's 1100cc Salmson. Gordini ran right away with the race, doing his 32nd lap at 60.5mph, to cover the 63 miles in 1hr3m32s, an average speed of about 59mph. His Fiat was unsupercharged. Brunot's sports Riley followed it home, with the Salmson third.

The Coupe de la Liberation attracted a mixed field, which included Mestivier in a blown 1100cc Amilcar Six, Brugel, Ondet and Grignard with Amilcars of this type, Polledry this time with a 1750cc Alfa Romeo, two 2.5-litre Amilcars, Veuillet's K3 MG Magnette, two supercharged 1.5 GP Bugattis, Martin's blown 1.5-litre Bol d'Or Salmson, a blown 1-litre LM, a 2-litre Citroen-engined DB, a BNC, and two 4-cylinder 16-valve supercharged Maseratis handled by Roger Deho and Henri Louveau. The Salmson was a most intriguing single-seater with circular, protuding, grilled radiator cowl and all-wheel ifs. Louveau's Maserati ran away with the race, his 11th lap covered at just over 66 mph (1min 33.9sec), a class record. He averaged over 61 mph for the race, his drive taking 1hr 1m 9.7sec. The MG was second, a lap behind, and a 2.5-litre Amilcar was two laps behind Veuillet.

Naturally, the Coupe des Prisonniers caused the greatest excitement. Sixteen started, including the last-minute entry of Jean-Pierre Wimille's unblown 4.7-litre Bugatti, now slimmer than when it ran at Prescott in 1939; Raymond Sommer's unblown 4.5-litre Formula Talbot, which Mays drove in the 1939 French GP; Levegh's 4-litre Darracq, Louis Gerard's old 3-litre Maserati, Etancelin's 2.3-litre "Monza" Alfa Romeo, Trintignant's, Friedrich's and Balsa's 2.3-litre Bugattis, Chaboud, Villeneuve, Cornet (with Mathieson as reserve driver), Trillaud, Chotard, Wormser and Grignard with sports Delahayes, and de Sauge's unblown 3.3-litre Bugatti. Sommer was first past the grandstands, closely followed by Wimille (who had not been able to practice). The Bugatti took first place on the second lap and a great battle developed, both drivers displaying considerable skill in negotiating this slippery, winding course. After 10 laps, Wimille drew further ahead and, gaining about 3 sec a lap, had a lead of about 1.5 miles by lap 42. The Bugatti put up a fine show, almost lapping the Talbot, and averaging nearly 71 mph for the 75 miles. Several laps were done at an average of over 78 mph. Chaboud's Delahaye was third, far behind the Talbot. Only seven cars reached half-distance. Etancelin drove well to get his old "2.3" Alfa Romeo gradually into third place, only to "blow up" at three-quarter distance and walk in. Gerard, wild as ever, crashed the Maserati.[p][Edited by Francis on 10-18-2000]

#10 fines

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Posted 18 October 2000 - 20:36

Ah, Francis, that's great! Can anybody top this?

#11 fines

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Posted 19 October 2000 - 19:39

Let's talk about some of the drivers:

Paul Friedrich/Friderich on Bugatti - is that the son of Bugatti stalwart Ernst/Ernest Friedrich/Friederich/Friderich? And what's the correct spelling? Over to you, Hans?

Lascaud on Amilcar - is that Gabriel Lascaut who drove a Salmson in any number of races in the vicinity of Paris throughout the fourties?

Brunot on Riley - he was also second at Nice in 1946, what was his first name? Is there a connection to Robert Brunet, who entered an F2 Ferrari at the Paris GP in 1949 but DNA?

Givon on Bugatti - what was his first name? Sheldon rather feistily puts it as Commandant, but that sounds rather like a military rank!

Cayeux on Simca, Ferry on Riley, Brugel on Amilcar - anyone with their first names? Why is Brugel not on Sheldon's entry list? Is there a connection between Ferry and Jacques Forestier who raced a Riley in 1946? Or rather René Foiret who campaigned an Amilcar that year?

Any hint that any of these drivers were not French?

What about the capacity limits for the races? Not even two sources seem to agree on that subject!

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 October 2000 - 09:15

Flicker's story of the 1945 Coupe Des Prisonniers has Maurice Trintingnat's reason for retirement as unknown. In fact there's a story behind this.

During the war his Bugatti had been stored and somehow a group of rats had made their home in the petrol tank. Naturally they left traces of their presence. Maurice retired because this got into the fuel system and caused fuel starvation.


After the race he explained this to Jean-Pierre Wimille, using the word "petoulet", which is slang in South-Western France for rat droppings. Wimille found the whole idea outrageosly funny. and through gales of laughter said "Yes, Maurice, and you're the biggest petoulet of the lot".

And that's how Maurice Trintingnat bacmae known as Le Petoulet.



#13 Flicker

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Posted 21 October 2000 - 09:32

Really!? :D :cool:
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#14 Marcor

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Posted 02 November 2000 - 18:26

La Coupe Robert Benoist (1500 cc unsupercharged) : 36 laps - start at 2H.30 PM.
La Coupe de la Libération (from 1500 to 3000 cc) : 36 laps - start at 4H.45 PM.
La Coupe des Prisonniers (up to 3000 cc) : 43 laps - start at 5H.45 PM.

15 drivers took part in the first race. Gordini entered 4 cars : three 1100-engined and one 750cc well-prepared but without alteration in relation to its prewar state. Gordini allocated to himself the 810404, confided « the 1938 sport » to Jean Brault, the « 1937 sport » to Robert Cayeux and one « Simca 5 Le Mans » to Albert Alin whose brother was a mechanic of the team. Athos, Libère and Aldo, freshly come back from Germany but nevertheless always in soldier’s uniform, reinforced the numbers of the team.

Other starters included one Bugatti 37 driven by Creuchet, one DB driven by Charles Deutch (the D of DB, B stood for Bonnet) and one Lombard in which Serge Pozzoli took the wheel.

Was it the fine weather or the interest aroused by the rebirth of the motoring sport which explained the success of the event ? The fact remains that almost 200.000 people massed behind the fences.

From the start Amédée Gordini took the lead and was miles ahead of the others competitors. Pozzoli retired on lap 9. Brunot’s Riley overtook Boucart’s Salmson. In the lead, imperial, the « Sorcier » (Gordini’s nickname, that meant the Sorcerer or the wizard) walked his way and crossed the line first, an average speed of 94.708 km/h.

And the result was :
1- Amédée Gordini (Simca 800404 T8 n°2)
2- Brunot (Riley 1500cc) + 1 lap
3- Boucard *(Salmson 1100 cc)
4- Brault (1938 Simca Sport 725-RL-8 T8 n°8 803247)
5- Polledry (Aston-Martin 1500)
6- Creuchet (Bugatti T37)
7- Cayeux (Simca 823885 T8 n°3)
8- Alin (Simca Cinq Gordini 750cc T5 n°10) first in 750cc class

Gordini was jubilant as he reached his goal : conquer to incite a financing from Simca. Gordini was quite sure of regaining the confidence of Mr H.T. Pigozzi.

Translated from « Gordini un sorcier, une équipe » (Christian Huet).

* Bouchard was here called Boucard. What’s the real Name ?
I've got other French sources about this event, especially the main race but I had to translate it into English.


#15 fines

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Posted 02 November 2000 - 21:05

MarCor, that's great!!! Thank you very much! If you have other sources then, please, post them even if you don't want to translate them! Better in French than not at all, I'm starving for information!

Some questions, however: How come the last race started only one hour after the Coupe de la Libération which lasted more than one hour in itself? Maybe the start was at 0345 or 0415 pm?

Was Adrian Alin the brother of Albert Alin? How many starters competed in the 750cc class?

About Boucard/Bouchard, I've seen both but would think the latter is the right name, not knowing for sure though.

#16 Felix Muelas

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Posted 02 November 2000 - 21:22

Marc

Thanks! Great information!

As for fines´ suggestion, I go along. Post whatever there is available, we´ll take care of the translation later!

(A bit selfish, I know, but one of the first times I see an advantage of being a Spaniard, born in Paris and married to an English woman that taught me her language, whilst she speaks Italian and German);)

Felix


#17 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 02 November 2000 - 23:23

Marcor,
Thank you very much for your detailed information. This is one of the reasons why we are here. I for one, am hungry for stuff like this. Of course, please tell us about the main event when you find time. If you do it in French, bear in mind that not everybody has a French dictionary. I know that Felix doesn't even need one. He is so blessed: English, Italian, German, French, Spanish and Portuguese. Six languages spoken in one house! Did I miss any, Felix?

#18 Racer.Demon

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Posted 03 November 2000 - 14:58

I have thusfar refrained from trying to teach him some Dutch!

Not that it would be very helpful in the research of motorsport history...;)


#19 fines

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Posted 06 November 2000 - 16:16

I've mulled it over several times and now I think I have a solution to the capacity limits:

- The "Coupe Robert Benoist" was for unsupercharged cars only with no more than 1500cc, with a class for 750cc cars as well.

- The "Coupe de la Libération" was for supercharged cars up to 2000cc and unsupercharged cars up to 3000cc.

- The "Coupe des Prisonniers" was for supercharged cars up to 3000cc and for unsupercharged cars with no capacity limit.

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#20 fines

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Posted 07 December 2000 - 19:11

Posted Image

The start of the Coupe des Prisonniers with Philippe Étancelin (#3), Louis Gérard (#4), Raymond Sommer (#2) and others.

#21 TonyKaye

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Posted 13 December 2000 - 22:19

I explored these races just after Paul Sheldon published his Volume 4. Although I came up with pretty much the same findings as everyone else on this thread, there are three areas where I may be able to add something.

Coupe de la Liberation - partial starting grid

Louveau Martin Deho

Grignard Mestivier

Bonnet Balsa Veuillet

Givon Lascaud

Polledry etc.

Coupe des Prisonniers - partial starting grid

Etancelin Gerard Sommer

Levegh Wormser

Etc. Friderich Grignard

Coupe de la Liberation

Paul Sheldon and everyone else states that Eugene Martin's car was a Salmson. Now I can't remember where I obtained the information, but I have him in an R-Type MG. It may have come from one of Sheldon's addenda or I may have read it in a contemporary French publication. Not knowing that it would someday come under the scrutiny of experts, I simply wrote it in my copy of Vol. 4 without adding a reference. However I went to the trouble of whiting out the original Salmson entry and inking in 'R-type MG' over the top, so I must have been very certain of the authenticity of my data. Perhaps he entered a Salmson for the race, and that's what was printed in the program, but substituted the MG on race day. Such things do happen!


#22 TonyKaye

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Posted 13 December 2000 - 22:23

I notice that my carefully formatted starting grids were scrunched up during transmission. They should have appeared in conventional 3-2-3-2 etc layout. I hope that's clear.




#23 TonyKaye

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Posted 14 December 2000 - 01:48

The reference to Martin's MG in the Coupe Robert Benoist is on page 153 of 'Motor Racing' by Boddy and Laban. In the caption to the same photo provided to this thread by Flicker, car #6 is described as an "unusual special single-seater, composed of an MG R-type chassis and an eight-cylinder supercharged engine". Presumably at least the engine was a Salmson, if not the chassis. The narrow body and 4-wheel independent suspension of the R-type are very evident in the photo. Boddy blots his copybook by saying that the driver is Bonnard, but the November 1946 edition of Motorsport (HIS magazine!) corrects the error specifying the driver as Martin.

A couple of errors in Sheldon's report of the Coupe de la Liberation. The fastest lap time is a typo and should read 1'33.9", though the actual speed is correct. In the last paragraph of his narrative Henri Louveau should appear in place of Roger Loyer.


#24 klemcoll

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 17:07

Does anyone know the first name of one of Amédée Gordini's mechanics in races after WWII, last name Libère?

#25 RA0259

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:44

The reference to Martin's MG in the Coupe Robert Benoist is on page 153 of 'Motor Racing' by Boddy and Laban. In the caption to the same photo provided to this thread by Flicker, car #6 is described as an "unusual special single-seater, composed of an MG R-type chassis and an eight-cylinder supercharged engine". Presumably at least the engine was a Salmson, if not the chassis. The narrow body and 4-wheel independent suspension of the R-type are very evident in the photo. Boddy blots his copybook by saying that the driver is Bonnard, but the November 1946 edition of Motorsport (HIS magazine!) corrects the error specifying the driver as Martin.

A couple of errors in Sheldon's report of the Coupe de la Liberation. The fastest lap time is a typo and should read 1'33.9", though the actual speed is correct. In the last paragraph of his narrative Henri Louveau should appear in place of Roger Loyer.


So if it was an 8 cylinder did Salsmon make one during that time frame?

Chris

#26 RA0259

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 10:54

So if it was an 8 cylinder did Salsmon make one during that time frame?

Chris


So also I find no reference to Martin driving this car in the Motorsport edition quoted. It clearly says BMW Martin Special. Nothing to do with an MG R-type with an 8 clinder supercharged motor.

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 11:28

So if it was an 8 cylinder did Salsmon make one during that time frame?

Yes, dating from before the War


#28 Allan Lupton

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 13:46

The reference to Martin's MG in the Coupe Robert Benoist is on page 153 of 'Motor Racing' by Boddy and Laban. In the caption to the same photo provided to this thread by Flicker, car #6 is described as an "unusual special single-seater, composed of an MG R-type chassis and an eight-cylinder supercharged engine". Presumably at least the engine was a Salmson, if not the chassis. The narrow body and 4-wheel independent suspension of the R-type are very evident in the photo. Boddy blots his copybook by saying that the driver is Bonnard, but the November 1946 edition of Motorsport (HIS magazine!) corrects the error specifying the driver as Martin.

This is what we think is the MG R-Type/Salmson at the Bois de Bolougne probably in 1945 with Eugene Martin at the wheel
picture here with luck
Somewhere I found:

It was the assembly of a MG R type, ex Ecurie Menier and a Salmson 8 cylinder engine, both bought to Roger Deho during the war.
The capacity of the engine was increased from 1100 up to 1500cc, the two Cozette blowers were removed and replaced by a Bugatti 35B one.



#29 Felix Muelas

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 19:26

This is what we think is the MG R-Type/Salmson at the Bois de Bolougne probably in 1945 with Eugene Martin at the wheel
picture here with luck


Thank you, Allan! :wave:


#30 RA0259

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:21

Well this is a great mystery.

Yes it looks like an R-Type chassis to me. The body obviously has been greatly enlarged overall to accomodate what must be a larger engine.

So is the Salmson motor a straight 8?

Is anyone making the blocks/heads at the moment?

What happened to the car?

Was Eugene Martin an entrant on the programme mentioned earlier?

Regards,

Chris

#31 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 12:14

David McKinney asked me, in 2009, about this car. Here is what I answered him:

"About the car of Martin. He raced it three times: Paris 1945,
Marseilles 1946 and Paris-Saint--Cloud 1946. Everytime, on official
programes the car was entered as a Salmson.
It was what in England is called a "special": an R-type MG châssis with a 8
in line Salmson engine raised from 1100 to 1500cc, with a blower. Martin
also modified the ex-Ecurie Meunier R-type chassis: independant front
suspension and de Dion rear-axle; special aluminium-made body too.
The car was a complete failure: the Salmson engine was too long for the
chassis and so the road holding was desastrous.
So, in the three races the same car: MG chassis and Salmson engine but don't
call it a Salmson-MG."

Of course the entrant was Eugène Martin. Martin, I think, sold the engine and the car separetly. The car was bought by a french "amateur" driver (at the moment I don't remember his name) who, in 1947, put in it a 1100 cc4 cylinder Salmson,engine an from 1948 had a new body made.

After this failure, Martin strongly modified a BMW 328 he entered as a Frazer-Nash though it had a left hand drive!in those days, in France, BMW was not the good name!