573 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

Interesting outcome, wasn't expecting this.

Not super surprised at the inclusion of a team that hadn't been reported (Manor), but it's weird that Prodrive and EE didn't get in. Then again we knew little about the real weight of each entrant, we didn't even know (still don't) the entire list of entrants.

I'm a bit annoyed that this will drag on for another week and possibly beyond. I thought Max was trying to get rid of the manufacturers but now I'm not sure. Why would he keep their conditional entries in the list if so? Maybe to make sure the likely champions Brawn still get a chance to stay? This whole deal is getting quite complicated.

[lokiman]

I'd quite like to be in Iron Maiden.

Bruce Dickenson always looks like he's having an awesome time.

The problem is that, when it comes to the FIA, all Ferrari want to do is run to the hills.


I'll get my coat........

[Owen]

I'd quite like to be in Iron Maiden.

Bruce Dickenson always looks like he's having an awesome time.

[mattorgen]

I'd quite like to be in Iron Maiden.

Bruce Dickenson always looks like he's having an awesome time.

F1 needs more people like him - people with a personality. Sadly Dickinson is a plane fan and, I think, is involved with AeroGP.

[Rob]

I thought Max was trying to get rid of the manufacturers but now I'm not sure.

He would but he doesn't have any viable replacement teams, so needs them for a little longer.

[Owen]

Interesting outcome, wasn't expecting this.

Not super surprised at the inclusion of a team that hadn't been reported (Manor), but it's weird that Prodrive and EE didn't get in. Then again we knew little about the real weight of each entrant, we didn't even know (still don't) the entire list of entrants.

I'm a bit annoyed that this will drag on for another week and possibly beyond. I thought Max was trying to get rid of the manufacturers but now I'm not sure. Why would he keep their conditional entries in the list if so? Maybe to make sure the likely champions Brawn still get a chance to stay? This whole deal is getting quite complicated.

This FOTA alliance is proving to be a real thorn in his side. As long as FOTA stay together, he's got problems.

[potmotr]

Nick Wirth seems to be quite close to Mosley.

When Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzerberger (a Simtek driver) were killed at Imola in 1994, Mosley chose to go to Ratzenberger's funeral instead of Senna's.

He said that everyone was heading to the great Brazilian's funeral, and it was important Roland wasn't forgotten.

I don't much like Mosley, but that action shows he does have great class.

[undersquare]

Max is going to be cross about FOTA going to the WMSC. They're pretty close to saying they want Max out.

[lokiman]

When Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzerberger (a Simtek driver) were killed at Imola in 1994, Mosley chose to go to Ratzenberger's funeral instead of Senna's.

Hugely classy move.

Obscure bit of trivia: at the time of his death, Roland Ratzenberger's girlfriend was Davina McCall.

[Rob]

Hugely classy move.

Obscure bit of trivia: at the time of his death, Roland Ratzenberger's girlfriend was Davina McCall.

She was working for MTV at the time, who sponsored the Simtek team which Roland drove for.

[lustigson]

Could I be forgiven for thinking that Mosley is playing more of his petty games?....accept entries from the weaker new teams and keep the more serious ones waiting in the wings.

Could be, since teams like Prodrive or Epsilon Euskadi might be in a better position to, for instance, buy-out Scuderia Toro Rosso or take over Renault's factory.

[potmotr]

F1 needs more people like him - people with a personality. Sadly Dickinson is a plane fan and, I think, is involved with AeroGP.

He flies 757's for Asturius airlines.

He also ferried Iron Maiden around the world in a 757 on their most recent tour, as documented in the documentary Flight 666.



I think the most recent hard rocker to approach open wheeler racing with any great gusto was Vince Neil from Motley Crue, who was team mates with Tommy Byrne

Sorry, OT diversion, but it is a depressing news day..

[Andy35]

I think some of the unkind words max has said about Luca over recent times might be coming home to roost. I think Max has never regretted anything he has said about people like J. Stewart, but I wonder if he regrets insulting the boss of Ferrari? He might do soon.

Regards

Andy

Edited by AndyW35, 12 June 2009 - 13:01.

[Owen]

I think some of the unkind words max has said about Luca over recent times might be coming home to roost. I think Max has never regretted anything he has said about people like J. Stewart, but I wonder if he regrets insulting the boss of Ferrari? He might do soon.

Regards

Andy

There's a large queue of people that he's upset in the F1 community. That's part of the problem.

[dabrasco]

FIA making no signs of any potential back down.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/76065

if there are so many proper teams waiting in the wings, why does he have to include conditional entries and teams that didnt full apply or have publicly stated they wont race?


@ werks prototype, u can force a team to compete.... even if a judge ruled they show up... they could easily paint their car black, qualify last with test drivers and do all sorts of intentional ways to undermine the competition... and then walk away with 80mill or whatever amount they get per year from FOM.

I highly doubt they could be legally barred from appearing in a rival series at the same time either so...

you could get a breakaway series with the real Ferrari....

n some slow black cars with no-name drivers called Ferrari only for legal reasons in Maxs' F1. That will be Bernie/Max total shooting of itself in the foot as that will make it outrightly clear to all sorts of fans which is the true premier class.


Max has bit off more than he can chew, he is stuck btw a rock and a hard place. All his old dog tricks have been anticipated and batted away firmly by FOTA and the walls are slowly closing in.

Soon even his dungeon cleaner, Motormedia will have to admit he is losing this one and destroying F1 as we know it in the process.

[lustigson]

When Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzerberger (a Simtek driver) were killed at Imola in 1994, Mosley chose to go to Ratzenberger's funeral instead of Senna's.

He said that everyone was heading to the great Brazilian's funeral, and it was important Roland wasn't forgotten.

I don't much like Mosley, but that action shows he does have great class.

Hear, hear.

[lokiman]

She was working for MTV at the time, who sponsored the Simtek team which Roland drove for.

I wasn't aware of that. I knew that they had dated, but I wasn't aware that there was also a professional connection.

[potmotr]

I still find the way Formula One is run completely amazing.

Can you imagine, for instance, Premier League football being run like this?

With all the manipulation, politics, lying and bluffing from the sport's rulers?

No, neither can I.

[mattorgen]

He flies 757's for Asturius airlines.

He also ferried Iron Maiden around the world in a 757 on their most recent tour, as documented in the documentary Flight 666.



I think the most recent hard rocker to approach open wheeler racing with any great gusto was Vince Neil from Motley Crue, who was team mates with Tommy Byrne

Sorry, OT diversion, but it is a depressing news day..

Gotta love the tailfin on the 757! Regarding the other rockers, I think it's best to ignore Gene Simmons' IRL disaster.

[lokiman]

Gotta love the tailfin on the 757! Regarding the other rockers, I think it's best to ignore Gene Simmons' IRL disaster.

The man's a tool.........

[kar]

There's a large queue of people that he's upset in the F1 community. That's part of the problem.

But he's never upset anyone that could do anything about it. Taking on Ferrari, and particularly Montezemelo, I think, was particularly masochistic.

[Owen]

But he's never upset anyone that could do anything about it. Taking on Ferrari, and particularly Montezemelo, I think, was particularly masochistic.

Well let's hope some punishment is heading his way, that he won't enjoy.

[potmotr]

I wasn't aware of that. I knew that they had dated, but I wasn't aware that there was also a professional connection.

From what I've read Ratzenberger was a chap with considerable charm over the ladies.

His place in Formula One came thanks of an extremely rich female benefactor called Barbara Behlau.

She was bankrolling Roland's participation in the first five Grands Prix of 1994, the third of which he died at.

Hence the name Barbara which appeared on the rollhoop of the Simtek.

Sadly that name was removed and replaced with For Roland after he died.

Behlau owned 30 percent of Simtek up to 1995.

Not sure if she got her fingers burnt when the team went tits up.

Edited by potmotr, 12 June 2009 - 13:13.

[potmotr]

Gotta love the tailfin on the 757!

I saw that jet sitting at Gatwick a couple of years back, with Eddie on the tail.

It was ultra cool.

[werks prototype]

if there are so many proper teams waiting in the wings, why does he have to include conditional entries and teams that didnt full apply or have publicly stated they wont race?


@ werks prototype, u can force a team to compete.... even if a judge ruled they show up... they could easily paint their car black, qualify last with test drivers and do all sorts of intentional ways to undermine the competition... and then walk away with 80mill or whatever amount they get per year from FOM.

I highly doubt they could be legally barred from appearing in a rival series at the same time either so...

you could get a breakaway series with the real Ferrari....

n some slow black cars with no-name drivers called Ferrari only for legal reasons in Maxs' F1. That will be Bernie/Max total shooting of itself in the foot as that will make it outrightly clear to all sorts of fans which is the true premier class.


Max has bit off more than he can chew, he is stuck btw a rock and a hard place. All his old dog tricks have been anticipated and batted away firmly by FOTA and the walls are slowly closing in.

Soon even his dungeon cleaner, Motormedia will have to admit he is losing this one and destroying F1 as we know it in the process.

A racing black Ferrari? But that would end up being one the coolest things available to the F1 viewer in over 50 years. I'm still waiting for the return of a blue Ferrari. So that wouldn't work.

I still maintain that the often cited gravitas of Ferrari should be enough for them to negotiate on behalf of FOTA without the other manufacturer teams having to shoulder the burden of exclusion from racing in 2010. As it stands the team which has been most vocal in it's protest against the cost cap, Ferrari, actually risk nothing, and unfortunately their legal dispute with the FIA, which is yet to be clarified, undermines greatly the 'unified' efforts of FOTA especially regarding the threat of any kind of 'breakaway'.

[werks prototype]

I still find the way Formula One is run completely amazing.

Can you imagine, for instance, Premier League football being run like this?

With all the manipulation, politics, lying and bluffing from the sport's rulers?

No, neither can I.

This political situation is driving me to the premier league transfer nonsense, and the cricket and the tennis, all via le-mans.

[Owen]

From F1-Live.com:
Much of the F1 world was surprised to see 'Manor Grand Prix' on the list, and it emerges that the outfit is a collaboration between the British F3 and Formula Renault outfit Manor Motorsport, and Nick Wirth.

Wirth is a former Benetton technical chief, who ran the Simtek team with Max Mosley's involvement in the 90s. Today his Wirth Research facility builds racing simulators.

-----------------

So that's how the selection process works then.

[Dragonfly]

What do you think, isn't it time some national federations and auto clubs to step in?

[dabrasco]

A racing black Ferrari? But that would end up being one the coolest things available to the F1 viewer in over 50 years. I'm still waiting for the return of a blue Ferrari. So that wouldn't work.

I still maintain that the often cited gravitas of Ferrari should be enough for them to negotiate on behalf of FOTA without the other manufacturer teams having to shoulder the burden of exclusion from racing in 2010. As it stands the team which has been most vocal in it's protest against the cost cap, Ferrari, actually risk nothing, and unfortunately their legal dispute with the FIA, which is yet to be clarified, undermines greatly the 'unified' efforts of FOTA especially regarding the threat of any kind of 'breakaway'.

you still dont get it.... you dont get the point of FOTA and their stance

In reality if Ferrari alone were to quit, F1 would still exist and bounce back after a few years. If all the FOTA teams were to leave, F1 is done...

Ferrari are the main team with nothin to gain by participating in Mosleys tin can F1, a breakaway FOTA series will be much more appropriate and beneficial....
hence their inclusion against their will means nothing once the dust settles. You cant force them to compete.

Its not that hard to understand...

[Cenotaph]

I think the inclusion of Ferrari and the Red Bulls outfit make FIA look weak. They just can't live without Ferrari, unlike what Max said before.

bah, just go to prototypes, id love to see Ferrari and McLaren in Le Mans

Edited by Cenotaph, 12 June 2009 - 13:24.

[lustigson]

Wirth is a former Benetton technical chief, who ran the Simtek team with Max Mosley's involvement in the 90s. Today his Wirth Research facility builds racing simulators.

Not to defend anyone, but I gather M.R. Mosley sold his equity in Simtek Research Ltd. when he became FIA President in 1992. Simtek Grand Prix Ltd., formed probably some time in 1993, would likely have been a seperate company with no involvment from Mosley whatsoever.

An other detail, though: according to Wikipedia, "triple world champion Jack Brabham became a shareholder in Simtek Grand Prix", which links Nick Wirth with Super Aguri, owned by Formtech, which also owns the 'Brabham Grand Prix' name, which the company will be sued for, should they eventually be confirmed as a 2010 entry.;)

Edited by lustigson, 12 June 2009 - 13:27.

[werks prototype]

you still dont get it.... you dont get the point of FOTA and their stance

In reality if Ferrari alone were to quit, F1 would still exist and bounce back after a few years. If all the FOTA teams were to leave, F1 is done...

Ferrari are the main team with nothin to gain by participating in Mosleys tin can F1, a breakaway FOTA series will be much more appropriate and beneficial....
hence their inclusion against their will means nothing once the dust settles. You cant force them to compete.

Its not that hard to understand...

You can't force them to compete. Exactly, so why then should the other manufacturers remain 'conditional' and risk not even gaining an entry? whilst Ferrari remain un-conditional? None of them can be forced to compete. They may as well go 'un-conditional' and secure their spot whatever.

Ferrari who currently have a legal foot in each camp with nothing to lose can negotiate on behalf of the other manufacturer teams without these teams having to shoulder the burden of exclusion from racing in 2010. If this fails then they can all jump ship together with Ferrari if they want. At least they would have a choice, after all no one can be forced to race, just like Ferrari. At the moment the other manufacturers are facing oblivion, whilst Ferrari discuss their legal predicament with the FIA. The strength is with Ferrari, they should negotiate alone with a mandate from the other manufacturers to withdraw in unison if the matter is concluded in an un-satisfactory way. Since none of them can be 'forced to race'.

Edited by werks prototype, 12 June 2009 - 13:39.

[Josta]

When Ayrton Senna and Roland Ratzerberger (a Simtek driver) were killed at Imola in 1994, Mosley chose to go to Ratzenberger's funeral instead of Senna's.

He said that everyone was heading to the great Brazilian's funeral, and it was important Roland wasn't forgotten.

I don't much like Mosley, but that action shows he does have great class.

Why didn't they just hold them on different days? That way, everyone could have gone to both.

[dabrasco]

You can't force them to compete. Exactly, so why then should the other manufacturers remain 'conditional' and risk not even gaining an entry? whilst Ferrari remain un-conditional? None of them can be forced to compete. They may as well go 'un-conditional' and secure their spot whatever.

Ferrari who currently have a legal foot in each camp with nothing to lose can negotiate on behalf of the other manufacturer teams without these teams having to shoulder the burden of exclusion from racing in 2010. If this fails then they can all jump ship together with Ferrari if they want. At least they would have a choice, like Ferrari. At the moment the other manufacturers are facing oblivion, whilst Ferrari discuss their legal predicament with the FIA. The strength is with Ferrari, they should negotiate alone with a mandate from the other manufacturers to withdraw in unison if the matter is concluded in an un-satisfactory way. Since none of them can be 'forced to race'.

arguing this wit u is hopeless... so now you are saying the FOTA teams should register unconditionally?

what madness

[Owen]

FOTA have got their first race venue lined up:

Damon Hill has hinted that departing British Grand Prix venue Silverstone could side against Formula One if the series splits and a breakaway championship is formed.

"We value our relationship with Formula One and we want that tradition to continue. But we're a business, too.
"So if another event came along, clearly there would have to be discussions."

[cheapracer]

Ferrari will be raged to hear this

results of the Manor Motorsport in the lat few years:

F3 Euroseries (constructors)
2004 - 5th
2005 - 4th
2006 - 2nd
2007 - 2nd
2008 - 5th

... wtf is a team like Manor going to do in F1 ???

2014 - 5th
2015 - 4th
2016 - 2nd
2017 - 2nd
2018 - 5th

[F1 Tor.]

I think lawyers should have an entry. They're going to be around for a while, so might as well pick two and have some fun.

[cheapracer]

FOTA have got their first race venue lined up:

Damon Hill has hinted that departing British Grand Prix venue Silverstone could side against Formula One if the series splits and a breakaway championship is formed.

"We value our relationship with Formula One and we want that tradition to continue. But we're a business, too.
"So if another event came along, clearly there would have to be discussions."

..and Canada etc...

[jonaldinho]

I must say this situation is highly amusing. Max behaves like a 5 year old. He can not win now, he has ultimately forced FOTA into a situation where they simply can not accept anything less than Max's resignation.

FOTA in letter to WMSC: "In a final attempt to resolve this crisis, further meetings are scheduled for the next seven days. We would urge your support to ensure the outcome of these meetings achieves a solution that allows long established competitors to continue in their sport within a framework of sound governance and stability that will ensure the future and sustainability of Formula 1."

That seems to be fairly unequivocal. I can't see how the boards behind the FOTA members can allow this deeply flawed (and quite possibly insane?) old man to dictate how they go about their multinational business and global brand management.

It's true that some of those same boards might well opt to just take the conveniently left-open door and get outside F1 for a breath of fresh air because the whole thing's been going rancid for some time now.

I hope FOTA can hold itself together and face down Mosleys' dictatorial grip on the sport.

One possibe cost - maybe one or two manufacturers walk away. They may do so anyway.

A possible reward - Mosley shot down in flames - how very fitting.

Edited by jonaldinho, 12 June 2009 - 13:56.

[Scudetto]

You can't force them to compete. Exactly, so why then should the other manufacturers remain 'conditional' and risk not even gaining an entry? whilst Ferrari remain un-conditional? None of them can be forced to compete. They may as well go 'un-conditional' and secure their spot whatever.

To do so eliminates FOTA's bargaining power. What's the FIA motivation to negotiate if they have full commitment from the teams? Nil. Moreover, if FOTA signs unconditionally and there is not resolution of the regulations, causing FOTA teams to withdraw from competition, then the potential legal damages they could incur increases exponentially.

[werks prototype]

arguing this wit u is hopeless... so now you are saying the FOTA teams should register unconditionally?

what madness

I don't wish to argue with you. I am saying simply, using your own words, that since no team can be forced to race, the manufacturers should secure their spots now, even if that means entering 'un-conditionally', this won't change Ferrari's position as they have made clear time and time again, therefore Ferrari who are you will note already entered 'un-conditionally' should negotiate on behalf of the other manufacturer teams, utilising their 'historical gravitas' without these teams having to shoulder the burden of exclusion from racing in 2010. If this fails then they can all jump ship together with Ferrari if they want. At least they would have a choice, like Ferrari.

Edited by werks prototype, 12 June 2009 - 13:57.

[Josta]

Manor do have a good record in signing drivers. Two of their former drivers went on to win an F1 WDC.

[CoolFiltered]

Some interesting comments from Lola's Martin Birrane

Q. Given that circumstances may change over the coming week, you must feel reasonably confident that Lola's entry may yet be accepted.

Martin Birrane: Yes, it's a provisional list. We're not on there, but we're being encouraged to hold on until next Friday. There are five teams with an asterisk as well as our own, and we'll know then whether one, two or none of them will be through. This is what we're being told. Then again, we were being told that today was the last day...

Q. How certain are you, given the prevailing economic conditions, that you can put together the finance to be on the grid next year?

MB: Well, I knew what I was doing three months ago, so there's no question about whether we can or we can't. I'm doing this personally, it's not Lola itself. I didn't want to risk the company because of what happened once before [Birrane acquired Lola after its failed F1 entry in 1997]. Lola F1 Team Limited is a totally separate company, I'm the only shareholder and I'm the only one funding it.

I wouldn't be doing all that if I wasn't satisfied that we could take it forward. In fact, if you went to the factory now you would find that not only has the model been completed for a week, but it's been in the tunnel all this week. We're progressing. We're way ahead with our car.

No question we could have a car ready for December. I don't know where all these other guys… one of three that has been chosen is worthy in my view, and they will have a proper car. The other two - who knows?

My Bold.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/76073


Does anyone think he sounds a little bitter ?.

[Owen]

Unusual silence from FOTA to date.

[lustigson]

Unusual silence from FOTA to date.

Is it?

• FOTA asks WMSC to intervene in F1 row
• FOTA seeking 'sensible governance'

[Dragonfly]

Does anyone think he sounds a little bitter ?.

It's understandable. The man says they already have a model in the wind tunnel, so they must have been quite sure they'd be approved.

[J-Raid]

Seems Richards and Prodrive got revenge from FIA/Max after they did the ridiculous withdraw a couple of years ago,expecting customer teams to be suddenly allowed, becoming Mclaren's B-team, something all rivals would obviously never allow!

I'm very surprised that Epsilon Euskadi, having lots of experience, a wintunnel, CFD supercomputer and facilities bigger than Renault's Enstone, didn't make it.

Lets see what happenes next Friday. Getting bored (even more!) of F1 politics

Edited by J-Raid, 12 June 2009 - 13:55.

[Owen]

Is it?

• FOTA asks WMSC to intervene in F1 row
• FOTA seeking 'sensible governance'

Err yes.
Was looking for a press release. But there are none.

[BMW_F1]

Congrats to the US F1 team for making the Grid.

where are all the snobs that were laughing at the US team now?

[werks prototype]

Is it?

• FOTA asks WMSC to intervene in F1 row
• FOTA seeking 'sensible governance'

I think these two 'declarations of intent' provide the best angles from which to go for Mosley, the tragedy is of course that they have for sometime now.