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1960s Formula Libre


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#51 Chris Townsend

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 06:59

If you got inclement weather that also threw up some supprising tussles, One early 70's race at a wet Snetterton saw John Jordan's GT40 being hounded by Adrian Wilkins Chevron single seater , poss an F2 or Atlantic which only just failed to win as the GT40 just had enough to get to the line first but not by much.


Pete


Pete, are you sure that was a single seater and not a B8 Chevron or something? [Still impressive...] I thought that Wilkins did only one season in single seaters and that in a March 722

On "why they did it" I'd add that it was good experience for drivers who'd just got into F3 and an alternative for those who found they didn't have the resources to succeed within the formula. Of the F3 cars in the Oct 67 field you cite only Ikuzuwa was an F3 regular and a front runner. King very rarely did F3 races but concentrated on Silverstone and Mallory libre events, Louis Parsons and John Campbell had recently bought their first F3 cars so were still learning and when Len Ward did F3 it was mainly smaller races at Brands.
Researching a car history recently [Mike Beuttler's ex Lanfranchi/Lucas Brabham BT21] I was staggered by the number of libre races that Beuttler did in 1968. He not only used it when there was a supporting race at a meeting with F3, he would often take it to meetings when there was only f.libre on offer. That car did about seventy races in two seasons

Edited by Chris Townsend, 19 June 2009 - 06:59.


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#52 petestenning

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 07:59

I am fairly sure it was a single seater, however not having that programme any more i cant be 100 %, the only two Chevron B8's i can remember being at my Snetterton meetings were Colmworth farmer Allen Gibson's White version and occasionally Cris Skeaping's Blue one .
Both of these doing the Libre events while Mike Gribben did the Motoring news races i saw.


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#53 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 18:12

I've only just spotted this thread so I need to start at the beginning - Christmas 1963 - and catch up. Ewer's car is very interesting - I don't know which one it was of the early Cooper-Chevs. It was there that day but failed to start when it "turned tempramental" in the paddock. Mastin's car may have been a Climax in the programme but it was a Ford in Autosport's report, which I reckon is more likely. Mew's did have a Climax however which grew to 2 litres later in the season.

Hegbourne won by the way, from Mastin , Long and Banting.

#54 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 18:31

My latest edition to my programmes throw up some questions , lol lets start with the entry;-

Mallory Park 13th october 1963, BRSCC

Race 5

Formula Libre Race 20 Laps

24 Auto Racing Services Jack Pearce Lotus 1584
25 Mo Nunn Cooper 1500
38 Graham Eden Cooper Arden 1499
44 John Taylor Cooper 1498
49 Alan Eccles Cooper 1498

Mind if I concentrate on the top 5? Jack Pearce's Lotus 22 with 1.6-litre twin-cam was very successful in 1963 and 1964. John Taylor's car would have been Bob Gerard's ex-FJ car, probably the Mk III ('T59') with the Holbay 1500c Ford engine. The other three are ex-F2 cars from the 1957-1960 period and could be T43s, T45s or T51s. We may never know. All three were regulars: Nunn in 1962 and 1963; Eden had used a Cooper in 1961 but had progressed to Emeryson and then Lotus in 1962 before returning to a Cooper for some reason; and Eccles hin 1962 and 1963 before stuffing a Chev in a Cooper (maybe the same one, maybe not) in it and continuing for another two years.


#55 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 18:58

Any idea on what the J.M.T was ?

Here is a sort of Libre race from Silverstone 1967 Oct 14 th, All single Seaters including 3 Historics .


Race 7 Single Seaters in 4 classes
Historic Racing Cars
Modern Racing Cars
26 Mike Costin Brabham BT 1594
27 Rob Littler Cooper 3A 1598
28 C Smedley Mallock U2 1600
29 Pete Hawtin Lola Cobra 4727
30 Julien Gerrard Cooper T73 1598
31 Richard Grant Properties Ltd Johnnie Ward JW 4/2 650
54 Jim Charnock Cooper Cobra 4727

I will leave the F3s to my esteemed colleague Dr Townsend and move swiftly on to the big stuff. By the way, has anyone mentioned that this race was cancelled due to heavy rain?

Mike Costin was in the Cosworth FVA test mule, a Brabham BT10 that was just about to be sold to Bill (Bickerton?) Jones for yet more F2 in 1968. Rob "Tiny" Littler's Cooper was a Mk 3A ('T67') with 1600cc twin-cam. Peter Hawtin had a Lotus 24 with 4.7-litre [Shelby] Cobra Ford engine, the same engine that was in the back of Charnock's venerable ex-John Axon Cooper T66.


#56 David McKinney

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 19:11

Alan Eccles's Cooper was a T51, said to be ex-Brabham
The Arden-Cooper was also a T51, complete with air-cooled flat-4 engine (don't ask)

#57 MCS

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 20:40

Peter Hawtin had a Lotus 24 with 4.7-litre [Shelby] Cobra Ford engine, the same engine that was in the back of Charnock's venerable ex-John Axon Cooper T66.


Allen, are we saying then that "Lola" Cobra should read Lotus Cobra?

There was some footage of the Lotus 24 in action in a Libre race at Oulton Park on here some time back - dicing for the lead with John Bridges' Chevron B16 - but it disappeared; although I'd dearly like to see it again. It was complete with commentary and started on the grid itself. The circuit looked wonderful, needless to say.


#58 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 21:46

Allen, are we saying then that "Lola" Cobra should read Lotus Cobra?

I would say that is likely, yes.

Alan Eccles's Cooper was a T51, said to be ex-Brabham
The Arden-Cooper was also a T51, complete with air-cooled flat-4 engine (don't ask)

I must ask! Tell me more about the Arden-Cooper. Is this Arden as in Chris Summers Equipe Arden?

Edited by Allen Brown, 19 June 2009 - 21:47.


#59 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 21:53

IS this what you're referring to?

Cyril Kieft had an AJB (Archie Butterworth) flat four fitted with Norton dohc 350cc barrels. Kieft hoped to build a sports car to take on Porsche and the engine was put into an early Kieft, not the Ray Martin car, but could not keep it cool. Eventually it was acquired by Graham Eden who fitted it to a Cooper, it was a 1.5-litre F1 car, and Graham ran it in a club race at Silverstone. He ran out of money and the engine was bought by Ian Richardson who fitted it to a sprint motorcycle, 'Moonraker' and it was hugely successful. Running on alcohol, it gave 210/220 bhp. I believe this engine still exists, it was last heard of in Ampthill, Beds.



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#60 David McKinney

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 22:08

I'm glad you added you second post - saves me a lot of research :)

#61 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 09:48

I checked Lawrence's Grand Prix Cars 1945-1965 and there is more detail on this car. The intruiging Archie Butterworth (AJB) flat-four engine first appeared in 1952 and used interchangeable cylinder barrels so its capacity could be changed. Anything from 1500cc to 2500cc was possible. He built six of these engines and one went to Cyril Kieft who fitted 500cc Norton barrels to make a 2-litre engine for sports car racing but could never find a way to keep it cool. A F2 engine was also considered in 1957. It ended up going to Graham Eden who got Jim Whitehouse of Arden Conversions to fit Norton 350cc barrels to make it into a 1.5-litre. This is the same Arden conversions that ran Equipe Arden Minis a few years later [guess who's reading the Gordon Spice autobiography at the moment.] Unfortunately, Mike give no dates for any of this and the Autosport indices for 1963 and 1964 make no mention of a Cooper Arden so I'm having trouble finding out more. Doug Nye's 1945-65 book also covers the project and puts Eden's involvement as starting in 1960/61.

Eden appears twice on entry lists for non-championship F1 races in this period: the Snetteron Internationals on 30 Mar 1963 and 14 Mar 1964. The Black Books describe the engine in his "Cooper T43" in '63 and his "T51" in '64 as a Climax FPF but I just checked Autosport's preview and it refers to his 1963 car as "Arden-Cooper" and his 1964 car as "Cooper-Arden". So this suggest the Silverstone race must be in that time frame but there are too many Silverstone libres to check. Anyone have any suggestions for further reading?

David - do you have this Cooper as being the same one Eden had raced in 1961?

#62 David McKinney

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 14:18

Not easy to answer

I have one reference to a T43 in 1963, others to a T51 in 1961 and 1962, and to the Arden engine going into the latter for 1963

#63 Denny

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 17:47

Edward, do you have many entry forms from the Park...?
Those relating to the Atlantic years could be very interesting to Mr Allen Brown and myself.




Hi,


It is with great pleasure that I can pull this old thread from out of the old oil drip tray of the forum and add new 'straight from the horses mouth' information! My father-in-law Norman, used to be part of the team and make sure that the vehicles were running to form.

I can definately confirm that the name for the A Moffat was not Alan, but he was Andy Moffat, who's father owned L&G Fire Appliances back in those days. How I know this to be true, is my father-in-law knew Andy. Andy was a close friend of Terry Bone's and who both used to live in Doddinghurst, both were part of the Ecurie Freeze Racing Team. They all used to meet in 'The Moat' pub, their local watering hole.

My father-in-law used to work for Terry Bone in Fleet Hire and Dad meet Terry when he used to race his own sprite, which was only for one season, as he met Terry Bone at Brands Hatch, and a new friendship was formed and Dad was to look after Terry's cars.

Terry Bone was Managing Director of Fleet Plant Hire (owned by Jarham Builders) at the time when my father was with him, and Terry had to make the choice as to whether or not to go driving with Merlin Forumla 3 or to stay with Jarham Builders. Unfortunately he chose to stay with the builders as back then it was a risky business in whether or not you could make it, and as he was on a good salary, he chose to remain a Managing Director.

Peter Gethin, raced his own Lotus 23 but when Andy Moffat sold his Gilby, he bought the Diva and entered the Diva at the old Nuremberg Ring, Germany and asked Peter Gethin to drive for him, so my father towed the Diva over for the race but alas the prop shaft fell off on the 14th lap plus alot of other bits and pieces! The Diva proved to have alot of other problems and a local garage did a modification - they put a different rear suspension system on it, (which was an independant rear suspension) - something they took off an old road car! (they elongated the studs on the rear brake drums as the original drums would not fit, so they filed out the holes where the wheel studs go through the drum making them slightly oval, allowing a fraction of play, so when Peter braked hard the brakes locked on and he skidded to a halt!) Several times Peter took the car out to see what the problem was with the brakes and each time he had the same issue. It was only when my father-in-law stripped down the car, he found the issue with the holes, so he arranged for the mobile workshop (fantastic it was he remembers with foundness, as they had absolutely everything there you could want and use) the workshop re-drilled new holes for the studs and this sorted the problem out.

Unfortunately Dad was nearly always working on the Lotus 23, so he can't quite remember what happened with the Diva, he thinks Andy may have sold it, but can't be sure.

The team all had great fun whilst at the Nuremberg Ring, as they also took over with them a mini cooper, and all did at least three laps each as a treat around the ring, Dad's not very successful, he remembers throwing the car into the carousel and having the back wheels down and the front ones up, as he describes it today, it felt like the wall of death!

He last heard that Peter Gethin was racing in the CamAm series in America in the late 60's.

Jackie Oliver was also a founder member of the Ecurie Freeze Racing Team, when he first started racing in the UK he used to race a Marcus, he then went on like Peter, to race in the CamAm Series in the States.

The Ecurie Freeze cars used to fit in an old leyland coach, which was modified with ramps so that one of the cars could be ramped up into the roof space with the other tucked underneath, if they took three cars, the other was on a trailer behind. No real mod cons back in those days.

Dad left the team unfortunately in 1963 as he had started a family and commitments to them were his priority over his love of motor racing.

I love to heard the tales he tells me about Silverstone, the old track, and Mallory Park let alone all the other circuits he visited.

Does anyone know if these drivers are still alive or if any of their vehicles has been kept? I would love to find out if I could as Dad is 80 this October and it would be brilliant if I could find out what happened to the team and its other members!

If I can work out how to post photos on the thread I will do, as Dad has some old blackies of the team.

#64 petestenning

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:59

Welcome Denny,
Thank you for that insight , as i am interested in the 60 racing scene its nice to get some 1st hand information .

Here is my latest formula libre entry list
FROM Mallory Park Whit Monday June 6th 1960

Race 9 Formula Libre 40 Laps

69................................................Frank Gardner [AUS]...........Lotus 12 Climax........1475

70...............................................Antony Brooke.......................
.......Lotus 16 Climax........1475

71 J.B.W. Car Co.........................Stan Hart..................................Cooper T43 Climax......1475

72 J.B.W.Car Co..........................T.B.N....................................J.B.W.Maser
ati......2485

73...............................................Tony Marsh..........................Cooper Monaco.....1962

74 Reg Parnell............................Tim Parnell...........................Cooper T51 Climax.......1475

75 Spa Racing Engineers Ltd.....Keith Finney...............................Lotus 16 Climax...........1475

76 New Platt Motors..................Ron Carter...............................Cooper T45 Climax........1475

77 Jim Russell............................Mike McKee..........................Cooper T45 Climax........1475

78 Dickson Motors Perth Ltd.....Tommy Dickson.....................Lotus 15 Climax..........1475

79 Fred Tuck...................................Geoff Duke...........................Cooper Climax.......1475

80 Team Thercel....................... Richard Uttley.........................Lotus 12 Climax..........1475

82 John Ogier.........................Tony Maggs..........................Cooper T51 Climax........1475

60..............................................Alan Rees.............................Lola MK1 ............1098

63..............................................Peter Arundell......................Lotus 18................998


Some identification is needed for these .
Of note is Geoff Duke former Motor Cycle racer , Hillclimber Tony Marsh , Rapid period drivers Alan Rees,Peter Arundell, and the Parnell's Tim/Reg


Pete

Edited by petestenning, 04 June 2011 - 13:43.


#65 David McKinney

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 12:47

Gardner Lotus 12 F2 (353)
Anthony Brooke Lotus 16 F2 ('362')
Stan Hart Cooper T43 F2 (F2-23-57)
JBW-Maserati F1 DNS
Parnell Cooper T51 F2 ('F2-7-58')
Keith Finney Lotus 16 F2 (367)
Ron Carter Cooper T45 F2 (F2-4-68)
McKee Cooper T45 F2 (F2-8-58)
Dickson Lotus 15 sports
Fred Tuck
Richard Utley Lotus 12 F2 (357)
John Ogier/Maggs Cooper T51 F2
Rees Lola Mk1 sports (BY3)
Arundell Lotus 18 FJ (18/J/710)

#66 petestenning

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:42

Many thanks for the updates David :wave: .

#67 petestenning

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 19:10

Bumping the thread up with another entry for what was called a single seater race, a libre race without the sports cars i suppose.

1 st Sept 1969 Silverstone

There were 2 classes listed
Class A UP TO 1500 CC
151 Pat Longhurst / dvr Ronald Parker/ Vixen mk1 /875
152 Pat Longhurst/ Vixen VB1 /875
153 David Palmer/ Vixen /875
209 Laurie Ritchie / Lotus 20/22 /972
175 John Denley / Lotus 31 /997
176 Chris Le S Metcalfe / Cooper T85 /997
177 Mike Stow / Brabham BT21B / 997
178 Len Gibbs /Brabham BT21B / 997
156 Alan Cunningham / Alexis /1500

Class B over 1500 cc
179 F.A.Smith / Alexis F2 /1595
180 Geoff Wiiliams / Lotus 31 TC / 1598
257 Nicholas Overall /Alexis FF /1598
266 Bruce Giddy / Ginetta G18 /1598
168 Karl Gold / Mallock U2 / 1600
169 Peter Farrer / Merlyn mk 11A /1600
171 Chris Simpson /Merlyn MK11A / 1600
173 Mertin Blackie / Pringett Mistrale /1600
174 Derek Lawrence / Titan MK4 /1600
181 Jim Charnock Brabham BT21A /1600
262 Philip Weed /Alexis FF /1600
182 Michael Hope/ Alan Taylor /Alexis TC /1600
183 Jack R Smith / Brabham BT23B / 2600
184 John Scott Davies / Cooper BRM F1 /2991



#68 Graham Clayton

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:31

With regards to Chris Summers, he had a Lotus 24 Chev after the Cooper.


The Summers Lotus 24 with Chevrolet V8 engine at Silverstone:

Posted Image

Source: http://www.oldstox.c...ges/summers.jpg

#69 Keith Rolleston

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Posted 10 June 2020 - 18:28

Re posts 56 and 59 and Graham Eden's Cooper Arden, I have just found a photo I took of this car at the 13/10/63 Mallory Park meeting. It was very interesting to read the history of this car and engine of which I knew nothing.

 

Cooper-Arden.jpg



#70 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 June 2020 - 10:56

Keith, this is a really interesting photograph.  I had not seen Eden's car before.  Thanks very much for posting it.

 

Was this scanned from the negative?  The reason I ask is that there are some very interesting details on the car that I'd love to be able to see more clearly.  If a sharper scan was possible, it might allow this long-standing mystery car to be identified.



#71 john aston

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 05:49

Off topic, but I wonder how many impressionable young things at the Revival , dressed to the nines , realise  that the reality of the Sixties paddock was grubby , and often tatty . Or  that the immaculately restored Cortinas , Healeys and Minors which populate historic race meetings car parks  bear little  resemblance to the wheezing , smokey and rusty old wrecks which once were so common ?


Edited by john aston, 15 June 2020 - 05:49.


#72 Doug Nye

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 12:18

Off topic, but I wonder how many impressionable young things at the Revival , dressed to the nines , realise  that the reality of the Sixties paddock was grubby , and often tatty . Or  that the immaculately restored Cortinas , Healeys and Minors which populate historic race meetings car parks  bear little  resemblance to the wheezing , smokey and rusty old wrecks which once were so common ?

 

A truth I have expressed - very clearly - ever since we first dreamed up the Festival....   :cool:

 

DCN



#73 john aston

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 17:03

So how come, even after spending ££££s ,  they made me wear a tie ,before I could get  in the paddock ? Surely , an homage to my Sixties teenager look of cheap parka , Wrangler Jeans and an Embassy Tipped would have been more authentic ? 



#74 D-Type

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 20:15

So how come, even after spending ££££s ,  they made me wear a tie ,before I could get  in the paddock ? Surely , an homage to my Sixties teenager look of cheap parka , Wrangler Jeans and an Embassy Tipped would have been more authentic ? 

But if you dress up as a Ruritamian admiral , a steward from the Titanic, or a highland games caber tosser, they will let you in.
I have an axe to grind here.  For several years I 'worked' at the Revival as an official charity collector. One of the perks was that we were allowed entry to the paddock, which was handy as the shift patterns for collectors made it difficult to get out round the circuit to see some racing or to 'bag' a spot somewhere between Woodcote and Madgwick.   Obviously you had to be 'appropriately' dressed  which was also a requirement for the charity collectors.  Then two years ago I went to visit the paddock and was stopped by the official on the gate who showed me a chart of exactly who was and wasn't allowed in.  Apparently they had changed the rules.


Edited by D-Type, 15 June 2020 - 20:16.


#75 pete53

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Posted 15 June 2020 - 21:31

Off topic, but I wonder how many impressionable young things at the Revival , dressed to the nines , realise  that the reality of the Sixties paddock was grubby , and often tatty . Or  that the immaculately restored Cortinas , Healeys and Minors which populate historic race meetings car parks  bear little  resemblance to the wheezing , smokey and rusty old wrecks which once were so common ?

Much the same with period dramas on TV, where you get the impression that everyone in the 1950s and 1960s drove a car that they had just been collected from the showroom.



#76 Allan Lupton

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Posted 16 June 2020 - 07:40

Much the same with period dramas on TV, where you get the impression that everyone in the 1950s and 1960s drove a car that they had just been collected from the showroom.

not to mention that some of those showroom-fresh cars carry registration numbers issued later than the supposed date of the drama.



#77 Stephen W

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Posted 16 June 2020 - 07:57

So how come, even after spending ££££s ,  they made me wear a tie ,before I could get  in the paddock ? Surely , an homage to my Sixties teenager look of cheap parka , Wrangler Jeans and an Embassy Tipped would have been more authentic ? 

 

Authenticity went out of the window when they allowed any "Hooray Henry" in what passed for a military uniform into the event.



#78 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 June 2020 - 08:51

While you guys have been chuntering on about fancy dress, some of us have been obsessing about that picture of the Arden-Cooper.  

 

The Cooper looks like a T53, but it only has small fuel tanks, so the bodywork is flatter at the sides.  That implies a T56 Formula Junior, but it has disk brakes.  I am indebted to fellow T53 obsessive Flavio Puccinelli for spotting the key detail on this car: at the very back of the frame under where the gearbox would be, the T53 had curved tubes to make room for the larger C5S gearbox.  On this photograph, you can see the tubes under the gearbox are straight, so almost certainly a T56.

 

OK, carry on.



#79 Peter Morley

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Posted 16 June 2020 - 12:04

While you guys have been chuntering on about fancy dress, some of us have been obsessing about that picture of the Arden-Cooper.  

 

The Cooper looks like a T53, but it only has small fuel tanks, so the bodywork is flatter at the sides.  That implies a T56 Formula Junior, but it has disk brakes.  I am indebted to fellow T53 obsessive Flavio Puccinelli for spotting the key detail on this car: at the very back of the frame under where the gearbox would be, the T53 had curved tubes to make room for the larger C5S gearbox.  On this photograph, you can see the tubes under the gearbox are straight, so almost certainly a T56.

 

OK, carry on.

 

It's really hard to tell but the gearbox might have a high level gear linkage, which is what the Junior boxes had.

 

Also possible that the rearmost tubes kick upwards slightly as on a T59, which did have disc brakes? 



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#80 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 June 2020 - 06:47

Hi Peter

 

Thanks for that.  I am in awe of the technical details that you and Flavio can spot in that photo!

 

T56 and T59 cutaways below show only one crossmember under the gearbox on the T59, but two on the T56.  Also Flavio tells me those are Girling ARs on the rear of Eden's photo, not the smaller NRs the F1 Coopers used on the rear, so more likely to be an upgrade than original equipment.  

 

CooperT56-cutaway.jpg

 

CooperT59-cutaway.png



#81 Peter Morley

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Posted 17 June 2020 - 15:39

The driver bulkhead/rollbar (a rather optimistic description maybe - shoulder protection might be a better description!) appears to be Type 56 rather than 59 shape as well.

So I'll agree it looks more like a modified 56.

 

What was the connection between the Butterworth engine and Arden?



#82 RAP

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Posted 17 June 2020 - 19:13

Peter Jackson of Cooper CC (who does not do Forums" ) say that he is inclined to a T56 - "cockpit body + rear spring top mounts not consistent with T59 but more like T56"

RAP