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#1 TeeZed

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 01:48

Hi Fellows,

As you know, most of the older race bikes ended up being scrapped years ago. I'm wondering what might be left? History is always good, but they didn't have to ridden by anyone famous. Here's my first entry:

Posted Image

The first of the "reverse cylinder" TZ250s (1988). It was raced for a few years in Japan. Imported into the USA in the early '90s. Raced once and crashed. It sat for 10-12 years until I bought the bike and rebuilt it as best I know how.

What do you have and what can you tell us about it?

Don

Edited by TeeZed, 17 June 2009 - 01:49.


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#2 joepotts7

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 09:55

Hi Fellows,

As you know, most of the older race bikes ended up being scrapped years ago. I'm wondering what might be left? History is always good, but they didn't have to ridden by anyone famous. Here's my first entry:

Posted Image

The first of the "reverse cylinder" TZ250s (1988). It was raced for a few years in Japan. Imported into the USA in the early '90s. Raced once and crashed. It sat for 10-12 years until I bought the bike and rebuilt it as best I know how.

What do you have and what can you tell us about it?

Don


Posted Image
By joepotts7, shot with Canon PowerShot A20 at 2009-06-17

A true one off built by Charlie and John Bruce of Motherwell. Built for the Scottish 150cc racing class an very early full duplex frame. The rear shocks were converted from jacks used to open bomb doors on WW2 planes! The jacks came from Joe Potts of Bellshill, who Charlie was great friends with and together went on to develop rapid bikes for the likes of Bob McIntyre, Alistair King, Jimmy Buchan etc etc.



#3 exclubracer

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 10:42

As the Japanese were never into nostalgia in a big way, most of the factory bikes that didn't end up in private hands went in the crusher.

A great shame as all this history is gone forever.

Plenty of old privateer stuff still around in Europe though.

#4 fil2.8

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:22

[quote name='exclubracer' date='Jun 17 2009, 11:42' post='3698390']
As the Japanese were never into nostalgia in a big way, most of the factory bikes that didn't end up in private hands went in the crusher.

A great shame as all this history is gone forever.

Even heard of 1 particular large Japanese team heaving bikes over the side of the Manx ferry on the way back from the TT :cry: :cry: :mad: :mad:


#5 PS30-SB

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 12:58

As the Japanese were never into nostalgia in a big way, most of the factory bikes that didn't end up in private hands went in the crusher.


In my personal experience of "the Japanese", I have found them to be no less into nostalgia than any other nation.

Even heard of 1 particular large Japanese team heaving bikes over the side of the Manx ferry on the way back from the TT


I have heard similar such stories, but they almost always prove to be apocryphal. One example was of Works rally cars being "dumped" into the sea from a ship that was supposed to be taking them back to Japan from Europe. The storyteller didn't seem to have any answer to obvious questions, such as how they got the cars from the hold up to a deck from which they could be dumped, how the 'Works' personnel found themselves on the same ship back to Japan as their cars ( and did they have wooden boxes, or cardboard boxes to travel in? ), and indeed what they intended to do with the temporary-export Carnets that were still current on the cars........


#6 joepotts7

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 13:55

Posted Image


Another 'survivor' cross between Japan and Yorkshire. The Jim Lee Yamaha TR2b that Mick Grant rode very successfully in 1970 and 71. The bike was a true one off and features a spine frame made by Jim Lee. In 1971 Mick Grant won 16 successive races at club and National level on it.

#7 TeeZed

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 14:27

Posted Image


Hi Joe,

Whooooooa. :) Very, very nice indeed. Do you have a picture from the side with the tank on?

Don


#8 joepotts7

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 16:14

Hi Joe,

Whooooooa. :) Very, very nice indeed. Do you have a picture from the side with the tank on?

Don


Posted Image

Currently we are putting it back to it's proper colour, Grant at the 71 TT:
Posted Image



#9 exclubracer

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 17:34

In my personal experience of "the Japanese", I have found them to be no less into nostalgia than any other nation.


Hmm, to reduce unique and/or priceless racing machinery to a cube of scrap metal as a matter of policy doesn't seem very nostalgic, whether done by "the Japanese" or anyone else.



#10 PS30-SB

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 18:09

Hmm, to reduce unique and/or priceless racing machinery to a cube of scrap metal as a matter of policy doesn't seem very nostalgic, whether done by "the Japanese" or anyone else.


I presume you are referring to the "policy" of a particular company or race team at a particular time, rather than the "policy" of a whole nation?

If so, please share the anecdote......

#11 exclubracer

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 18:12

I presume you are referring to the "policy" of a particular company or race team at a particular time, rather than the "policy" of a whole nation?

If so, please share the anecdote......


I was referring to policy of the the Japanese race teams, Honda and Yamaha primarily come to mind.



#12 PS30-SB

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 19:41

I was referring to policy of the the Japanese race teams, Honda and Yamaha primarily come to mind.


But when and where? And under what circumstances?

Operating thousands of miles from 'home' can sometimes leave you with less options than you might like to have........

Can we please get beyond this "....the Japanese....." type of sweeping generalisation mentality?

In my experience, the one with the least sense of nostalgia and history is......... The Taxman.......

#13 exclubracer

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 19:49

Can we please get beyond this "....the Japanese....." type of sweeping generalisation mentality?


After reading some of your previous posts, it appears that you have a very short fuse when it comes to your perception of criticism of anything or anyone Japanese.

Perhaps we should just agree to differ in our opinions of 'Japanese nostalgia' and leave it there.

#14 PS30-SB

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 20:57

After reading some of your previous posts, it appears that you have a very short fuse when it comes to your perception of criticism of anything or anyone Japanese.

Perhaps we should just agree to differ in our opinions of 'Japanese nostalgia' and leave it there.


People writing - and speaking - nonsense about Japan ( and "the Japanese" ) on forums like this is a pet hate of mine, I concede. Not too many people are ready to speak up in defence of half the nonsense that 'they' get accused of, so the greater part of it is allowed to reinforce the stereotype. Small voices like mine probably won't change anything, but I promise you I WILL pop up now and again to point out that such generalisations are often built on the foundations of misunderstanding, misapprehension and plain old prejudice.

If you are unwilling, or indeed unable to give any specific examples of this alleged anti-nostalgia "policy" up for discussion ( and to perhaps try to understand the circumstances that led to them ), then we will have to leave it there - won't we? :rolleyes:

#15 littlemono82

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 21:30

People writing - and speaking - nonsense about Japan ( and "the Japanese" ) on forums like this is a pet hate of mine, I concede. Not too many people are ready to speak up in defence of half the nonsense that 'they' get accused of, so the greater part of it is allowed to reinforce the stereotype. Small voices like mine probably won't change anything, but I promise you I WILL pop up now and again to point out that such generalisations are often built on the foundations of misunderstanding, misapprehension and plain old prejudice.

If you are unwilling, or indeed unable to give any specific examples of this alleged anti-nostalgia "policy" up for discussion ( and to perhaps try to understand the circumstances that led to them ), then we will have to leave it there - won't we? :rolleyes:


I'm second this, how would it be possible to have all these books with nice pictures of all these beautifull old gp bikes of yamaha, honda, suzuki if all these story's from hear say were through? ): Look at the books from Matt oxley and Nobuya Yoshimura. I think a factory can't keep all there bikes stored at there head offices. And some of the italian factory's don't have much left of there gp bikes as well. All the V8's at moto guzzi are replica's in there museum for example. And there seem to be a lot of paul smart F750 ducati factory bikes in this world :confused:
Cheers remco

Edited by littlemono82, 17 June 2009 - 21:37.


#16 Coupe Kawasaki

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:34

Well if they were dumped into the sea, then the policy of whoever was respomsible wasn't particularly enviromentally friendly now was it? So maybe we'll have to have Clive Cussler look for them before anyone takes any sweeping view of whether the race teams were evading taxes or just plain anti-nostalgic (of course they were not old bikes then) I get into trouble for not thinking deeply enough and generalizing about Americans as my wife is American and I'm English. I doubt anyone was intentionally branding a nation as being anti-nostalgic or purely business minded so can we leave it at that and get on with what this thread is about?

Thanks for the pics of the Jim Lee bike Joe, I'm wanting to build something I can race from my old 1967 YR1. Tony Foale had similar designs and I wondered whether Jim copied Tony or vice-versa? The disc is an early Peter Williams type or Lockheed or what? I was going to put a 4LS Gt750 in mine and this has me thinking otherwise now. I'll PM you as I'm going to need some dimensions if you would be good enough to help me out.


Great photos of a 'survivor'

Thanks, David

#17 joepotts7

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 08:52

Well if they were dumped into the sea, then the policy of whoever was respomsible wasn't particularly enviromentally friendly now was it? So maybe we'll have to have Clive Cussler look for them before anyone takes any sweeping view of whether the race teams were evading taxes or just plain anti-nostalgic (of course they were not old bikes then) I get into trouble for not thinking deeply enough and generalizing about Americans as my wife is American and I'm English. I doubt anyone was intentionally branding a nation as being anti-nostalgic or purely business minded so can we leave it at that and get on with what this thread is about?

Thanks for the pics of the Jim Lee bike Joe, I'm wanting to build something I can race from my old 1967 YR1. Tony Foale had similar designs and I wondered whether Jim copied Tony or vice-versa? The disc is an early Peter Williams type or Lockheed or what? I was going to put a 4LS Gt750 in mine and this has me thinking otherwise now. I'll PM you as I'm going to need some dimensions if you would be good enough to help me out.


Great photos of a 'survivor'

Thanks, David


The Works spine frame Jim Lee Yam (seen here) was done for the start of the 1970 season. Only the one was made and it raced for two years. I believe Tony Foale did his spine frame a few years later (1973). The disk brake pictured is not the original (but I have the original, plus the original caliper mount). The original disk came from a Hillman Hunter car (Jim used these plenty). With regards to helping with dimensions, given Jim only built one bike, I think it should stay that way. I would prefer it that no one tried to replicate the frame. I am a big fan of one-off specials, and I am always uncomfortable with the idea of them being replicated (a one-off is just that and it should not be reproduced to be used in classic racing, especially if the original survives!). For example, the number of times my dad has been asked to replicate his 4 valve Velo. Only one 4 valve Velo was built (one frame - Jim Lee again, two heads cast, one special gearbox etc etc) - below is a shot of it:

Posted Image

I obviously can't stop you making a version (I know you are not making a replica) of the JL Yamaha, but I would feel more comfortable if it was not meant to be a Jim Lee frame. I know of a few very famous racing bikes that are said to be the ex xxxx bike built in yyyyy, but actually cannot be the bike - I better not say any more! One advantage for a Foale frame based bike, is that you could contact Tony and at least get blessing for the project. Another option is to get one of Jim's customer Yamaha frames. These were very light frames duplex built eary on (aircooled). I don't mean to be a miserable bugger with regads to the JL spine frame, but I hope you understand my reasons....

Ben

#18 joepotts7

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 08:57

The disc is an early Peter Williams type or Lockheed or what?


A shot of the Jim Lee Yam showing the Hillman Hunter disk brake:

Posted Image



#19 GD66

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 10:08

And there seem to be a lot of paul smart F750 ducati factory bikes in this world :confused:
Cheers remco


Yeah, no kidding... and for twenty years, nearly every 350 Ducati that's been offered for sale is "ex-Spaggiari".... :smoking:


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#20 Coupe Kawasaki

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 13:54

I understand entirely Joe, these things tend to pass on later into other hands and people can distort the facts, I just want something that works well! The Foale one is an option, I did contact Tony and he said he was OK with it though at the time I thought he had come up with the design! I'd forgotten about the Jim Lee bike. I'm still thinking Seeley too as I don't want an RD56 copy. I'm surprised at the Humter brake, there's ingenuity for you.


Thanks,

David

#21 joepotts7

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 14:01

I'm surprised at the Hunter brake, there's ingenuity for you.


Or lack of money for you! Jim Lee and Grant were one of the first to use disk brakes. On the JL Velo they used a hydraulic drum brake first, then converted it to disk. The 4 valve Velo also uses two Hillman Hunter brakes on the front and a Hillman Minx on the rear.

A period aircooled Yam is a nice idea. I like the idea of a Machin or Jim Lee framed bike.

Regards,

Ben

#22 joepotts7

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 14:14

Another race bike that has survived, the 500cc JP7 Manx Norton:
Posted Image

The JP7 Manx was the ultimate development of a Norton by Joe Potts of Bellshill for Bob McIntyre. Bob raced JP7 in 1961 and 1962. The JP7 engine was highly developed and had many special features including Potts high-lift cams, a special crankshaft assembly, modified drive-side main bearing, and ported cylinder head. Notable victories by JP7 included the 1961 Leinster 200 (plus lap record) at Dunboyne and the 1962 500cc class at Beveridge Park. At the start of the 1962 season Harry Louis of The Motor Cycle Magazine described McIntyre’s JP7 engine as: “The Joe Potts 7 engine, of course is a much breathed-on unit with special head, piston con rod and flywheel assembly, and modified drive-side bearing. It is probably as potent a five-hundred single as can be found anywhere.” For the start of the 1962 season Bob McIntyre had the choice of either the JP7 Manx or his new Matchless G50 special. When comparing the two power-plants Harry Louis said: “In fact, the Norton’s J.P.7 engine gives 53 bhp which is about two horses up on the Matchless.”



#23 Rennmax

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 18:35

Mouthwatering bike indeed with such a brilliant history....could you give us some more info about the whereabouts/present ownership ?

#24 Herr Wankel

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 08:30

[quote name='joepotts7' date='Jun 18 2009, 10:52' post='3700147']
The Works spine frame Jim Lee Yam (seen here) was done for the start of the 1970 season. Only the one was made and it raced for two years. I believe Tony Foale did his spine frame a few years later (1973). The disk brake pictured is not the original (but I have the original, plus the original caliper mount). The original disk came from a Hillman Hunter car (Jim used these plenty). With regards to helping with dimensions, given Jim only built one bike, I think it should stay that way. I would prefer it that no one tried to replicate the frame. I am a big fan of one-off specials, and I am always uncomfortable with the idea of them being replicated (a one-off is just that and it should not be reproduced to be used in classic racing, especially if the original survives!). For example, the number of times my dad has been asked to replicate his 4 valve Velo. Only one 4 valve Velo was built (one frame - Jim Lee again, two heads cast, one special gearbox etc etc) - below is a shot of it:

Posted Image

I obviously can't stop you making a version (I know you are not making a replica) of the JL Yamaha, but I would feel more comfortable if it was not meant to be a Jim Lee frame. I know of a few very famous racing bikes that are said to be the ex xxxx bike built in yyyyy, but actually cannot be the bike - I better not say any more! One advantage for a Foale frame based bike, is that you could contact Tony and at least get blessing for the project. Another option is to get one of Jim's customer Yamaha frames. These were very light frames duplex built eary on (aircooled). I don't mean to be a miserable bugger with regads to the JL spine frame, but I hope you understand my reasons....

G'morning all,
A mate from years back (Trevor Hallam) used to race a JL Yam 350 at Darley and other Mids/North circuits.It was quick and so was he,but I remember he spent quite a lot of time perfecting his welding technique!
The JL Velo 4 valve;is that the one that Hulls' Tony Myers rides,or are we talking of 2 different machines? Tony's grandson is a mate of my youngest,and I get to hear about his exploits!
HW



#25 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 10:52

Mouthwatering bike indeed with such a brilliant history....could you give us some more info about the whereabouts/present ownership ?


I own JP7. I purchased it a few years ago (after saving up for ten years since the age of 8!) in an unrestored state. I had to strip the bike fully down, in order to check everything. Remarkeably it had been started since it was rebuilt by Joe Potts in 1964! I was therfore very lucky to have an as-new bike untouched since being rebuilt by one of the great tuners. The JP7 engine is remarkeable. I have seen some very special engines and work as a researcher on internal combustion engines, but have never seen an engine built as well as JP7. Joe Potts was clearly a remarkeable enginner - the quality of the work is fantastic! Bob raced JP7 last in late 1962. JP7 was the fastest bike in Scotland (even took part and won in a top speed race with a famous Vincent 1000cc), so Alan Smith approached Joe in order to get JP7. JP7 became Alan's baby and he was well aware of how special it was. Alan entered Jimmy Rae on JP7 at Charterhall the following season, but disaster struck. The big-end failed during the race (reason, because the bike had not run since Bob had crashed it - hence will have over revved in the crash). Alan Smith was devastated and blamed Jimmy Rae. He even refused to speak to Jimmy for a week! Alan couldn't believe what he'd done to JP7, so returned it to Joe Potts. Joe rebuilt JP7 and then that's it. A few owners down the line and it came to me.

Ben

#26 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 10:59

G'morning all,
A mate from years back (Trevor Hallam) used to race a JL Yam 350 at Darley and other Mids/North circuits.It was quick and so was he,but I remember he spent quite a lot of time perfecting his welding technique!
The JL Velo 4 valve;is that the one that Hulls' Tony Myers rides,or are we talking of 2 different machines? Tony's grandson is a mate of my youngest,and I get to hear about his exploits!
HW


The standard production Jim Lee frames were welded and were notorius for cracking. The 'Works' JL frames (spine frame Yam, Gran's Velo, the 4V Velo) were brazed and have survived remarkeably well. The Works frames were far better quality and are very nicely made. The 4 valve Velo is not ridden by Tony Myers (although we know Tony well)! My dad, Shaun Waters, has always ridden the 4 valver. Tony did ride a Velocette for Alan Coultas (also of Hull and another of the 'Yorkshire Velo mafia'), but certainly not the bike pictured here. Alan Coultas did make two four Valve Velo heads (which we own), but they were not the success of the JL framed 4 valver. I don't think Tony ever rode Alan's 4 Valve Velo's - he only raced the 2V bike. My dad also raced Alan's 4V Velo in the mid 70's.


Ben


#27 Herr Wankel

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 11:26

The standard production Jim Lee frames were welded and were notorius for cracking. The 'Works' JL frames (spine frame Yam, Gran's Velo, the 4V Velo) were brazed and have survived remarkeably well. The Works frames were far better quality and are very nicely made. The 4 valve Velo is not ridden by Tony Myers (although we know Tony well)! My dad, Shaun Waters, has always ridden the 4 valver. Tony did ride a Velocette for Alan Coultas (also of Hull and another of the 'Yorkshire Velo mafia'), but certainly not the bike pictured here. Alan Coultas did make two four Valve Velo heads (which we own), but they were not the success of the JL framed 4 valver. I don't think Tony ever rode Alan's 4 Valve Velo's - he only raced the 2V bike. My dad also raced Alan's 4V Velo in the mid 70's.


Ben

Hi Ben, :wave:
Thanks for the info.I knew I had seen the bike before,and now of course the name Shaun Waters (Dad) turned the light on.(its very dark in here) :lol: .There must be something in the beer in Yorkshire that makes folk gravitate to Velos.Apart from the list of names you supplied;Bill and Alec Swallow, (and dad Ken) the late Bob Hirst (and thats only Huddersfield)
ATB HW

#28 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 13:51

Hi Ben, :wave:
Thanks for the info.I knew I had seen the bike before,and now of course the name Shaun Waters (Dad) turned the light on.(its very dark in here) :lol: .There must be something in the beer in Yorkshire that makes folk gravitate to Velos.Apart from the list of names you supplied;Bill and Alec Swallow, (and dad Ken) the late Bob Hirst (and thats only Huddersfield)
ATB HW


Eye that's it! There are many great stories involving the Yorkshire Velocette Mafia. The Swallows (Alec, Bill and Ken) and Bob Hirst from Huddersfield, Alan Coultas and Kenny Reid (both made bikes for others to ride) from Hull, from Sheffield Eric Stanbra and Shaun Waters, then there was Mick Grant, Ken Nanson etc etc. In Yorkshire no one had money, but there were some great engineers. No one could afford to buy a Seeley, so they had to make their own specials, ranging from 4 Valve, DOHC, SOHC, special frames etc etc.

#29 Russell Burrows

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 14:11

Another race bike that has survived, the 500cc JP7 Manx Norton:
Posted Image

The JP7 Manx was the ultimate development of a Norton by Joe Potts of Bellshill for Bob McIntyre. Bob raced JP7 in 1961 and 1962. The JP7 engine was highly developed and had many special features including Potts high-lift cams, a special crankshaft assembly, modified drive-side main bearing, and ported cylinder head. Notable victories by JP7 included the 1961 Leinster 200 (plus lap record) at Dunboyne and the 1962 500cc class at Beveridge Park. At the start of the 1962 season Harry Louis of The Motor Cycle Magazine described McIntyre’s JP7 engine as: “The Joe Potts 7 engine, of course is a much breathed-on unit with special head, piston con rod and flywheel assembly, and modified drive-side bearing. It is probably as potent a five-hundred single as can be found anywhere.” For the start of the 1962 season Bob McIntyre had the choice of either the JP7 Manx or his new Matchless G50 special. When comparing the two power-plants Harry Louis said: “In fact, the Norton’s J.P.7 engine gives 53 bhp which is about two horses up on the Matchless.”


How beautiful is this..... What sort of a carb set up is that ? Presumably the G50 was a good deal lighter.


#30 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 14:23

How beautiful is this..... What sort of a carb set up is that ? Presumably the G50 was a good deal lighter.


The carb setup on JP7 is a std Manx (longer body) 1.3/8" GP2. The carb has had the Potts treatment with a really nice bottom feed to it (gives more fuel around main jet). A great mod and another example of how canny Joe Potts was! You see a baffle plate in front of the carb, which stops hot (less dense air) being taken into the engine. Fresh air is carried from the front of the fairing (not fitted there) via pipework to the baffle plate, so the engine takes in 'fresh' dense air. Joe Potts knew this was a good mod, hence why it was done on Bob's works Honda's (without thier permission).

The G50 was lighter, but the G50 was not the plan. The McIntyre Matchless was built as a 350cc 7R in 1961 (plus plans for a 500 Manx version. For 1962 Bob had the works 285cc Honda for the 350cc class, so the 7R had no use. To prove the frame works it was a straight swap for a G50 engine. After the frame was proven, a version would have been made to take the JP7 Manx engine. The G50 was a stop gap, and not the ultimate plan (hence why JP7 was still used alongside the Matchless). The frame for JP7 would have been made in the close season 1962/63.

#31 Rennmax

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 15:03

I own JP7. I purchased it a few years ago (after saving up for ten years since the age of 8!) in an unrestored state. I had to strip the bike fully down, in order to check everything. Remarkeably it had been started since it was rebuilt by Joe Potts in 1964! I was therfore very lucky to have an as-new bike untouched since being rebuilt by one of the great tuners. The JP7 engine is remarkeable. I have seen some very special engines and work as a researcher on internal combustion engines, but have never seen an engine built as well as JP7. Joe Potts was clearly a remarkeable enginner - the quality of the work is fantastic! Bob raced JP7 last in late 1962. JP7 was the fastest bike in Scotland (even took part and won in a top speed race with a famous Vincent 1000cc), so Alan Smith approached Joe in order to get JP7. JP7 became Alan's baby and he was well aware of how special it was. Alan entered Jimmy Rae on JP7 at Charterhall the following season, but disaster struck. The big-end failed during the race (reason, because the bike had not run since Bob had crashed it - hence will have over revved in the crash). Alan Smith was devastated and blamed Jimmy Rae. He even refused to speak to Jimmy for a week! Alan couldn't believe what he'd done to JP7, so returned it to Joe Potts. Joe rebuilt JP7 and then that's it. A few owners down the line and it came to me.

Ben


Hi Ben, thank you very much for all this tremendous information and background details, I' m really impressed. Do you parade this jewel sometimes or is it just too precious ?

#32 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 15:12

Hi Ben, thank you very much for all this tremendous information and background details, I' m really impressed. Do you parade this jewel sometimes or is it just too precious ?


It is there to be run (paraded not raced). To quote Bob McIntyre (when talking to Jimmy Buchan about riding a Potts bike in the Manx GP) - “The machine’s for rugged Scots, not promenade percys.” I have a few little things I want to do on it before I will run it. One problem could be the 105dB sound limits. It has an unusal exhaust (will be very load), combined with high lift cams - it will make some noise! It is hard to work on it as much as I would like now (I am away at Uni), but there is no real rush - it hasn't run for 46 years!

#33 Rennmax

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 15:37

It is there to be run (paraded not raced). To quote Bob McIntyre (when talking to Jimmy Buchan about riding a Potts bike in the Manx GP) - “The machine’s for rugged Scots, not promenade percys.” I have a few little things I want to do on it before I will run it. One problem could be the 105dB sound limits. It has an unusal exhaust (will be very load), combined with high lift cams - it will make some noise! It is hard to work on it as much as I would like now (I am away at Uni), but there is no real rush - it hasn't run for 46 years!


All the best to you and your beauty Ben.BTW, why don't you come over to the Schotten GP in Germany in mid-August, unmuffled British singles are especially welcome... :wave:

#34 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 15:45

All the best to you and your beauty Ben.BTW, why don't you come over to the Schotten GP in Germany in mid-August, unmuffled British singles are especially welcome... :wave:


I have heard Schotten is great. I would also like to go to Spa (McIntyre on JP Manx finished 3rd) and Monza (A King on JP Manx finished 2nd). The first place I will take the bike is to Joe Potts's funeral parlour at Bellshill (Glasgow), bump it up and then walk it to the crossroads at Bellshill. It would be a great thing to do, especially as some of the guys who worked on the bikes are still within hearing distance.

#35 Coupe Kawasaki

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 17:54

Brings me out in goosebumps just thinking about hearing it run Ben!


David

Edited by Coupe Kawasaki, 19 June 2009 - 17:54.


#36 joepotts7

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 18:11

Brings me out in goosebumps just thinking about hearing it run Ben!


David


Cheers david. Hopefully it should be worth the long wait!

#37 tonyfoale

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 21:07

Thanks for the pics of the Jim Lee bike Joe, I'm wanting to build something I can race from my old 1967 YR1. Tony Foale had similar designs and I wondered whether Jim copied Tony or vice-versa?
Great photos of a 'survivor'

Thanks, David


I certainly did not copy Jim's and I doubt very much whether Jim copied me. In fact there are fundamental differences between the two designs.

Regards

Tony Foale.

#38 tonyfoale

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 21:26

The Works spine frame Jim Lee Yam (seen here) was done for the start of the 1970 season. Only the one was made and it raced for two years. I believe Tony Foale did his spine frame a few years later (1973).
HW


The first frames that I made as a business were two TZ250/350 for Les Kenny in 1973 as you state. However, I had made frames for myself prior to that. The first was a spine frame in 1960/61 for a rotary valve 2T engine that I had made. The design was similar to that that I later made for those Yamahas. I think that there are some pix of that engine and the frame in the gallery section of my web site
www.tonyfoale.com

Regards

Tony Foale.


#39 tonyed

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 13:43

This frame was built in New Zealand by Bob McLean and Peter Pinion in 1976. Apparently Peter bought the frame, swinging arm and tank over to the UK to have replicas manufactured. I met a man at Stafford Classic bike show a couple of years ago who recognized the bike as the one he discovered in a frame builders who was waiting (the frame builder) for Peter to reappear. However this racer bought the frame and rebuilt it using a TZ 250 engine which he subsequently raced in the TT.
He rebuilt the engine as a 350 and reinforced the frame above the swinging arm pivot with a 1” tube running across the frame. Subsequently to this it again went through further hands until I bought on ebay some fours years ago. I have restored it to much like its’ original condition, as much as my budget ( couldn’t afford Campag wheels) will allow.

I believe it is the first of the ‘Low Boy’ type frames coming two years before the Kenny Roberts Rob North ‘Low Boy’ and three years before the TZ ‘F’.

The frame is called a ‘FREPIN’ after FREd Mclean and Peter PINoin and is only one of 6 or 7 built and possibly the only one still on wheels although other frames do exist and indeed replicas are being built.

At Stafford in October we have the ‘Real race Bikes UK’ stand in the Main Hall which will feature ‘special frames’.

If anyone has more info on this machine please contact me.

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#40 robinmck

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 21:50

then thee is this one, possibly the most original unmolested TZ750 on the planet??
http://www.trademe.c...px?id=593656402



#41 TeeZed

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 22:03

This frame was built in New Zealand by Bob McLean and Peter Pinion in 1976. Apparently Peter bought the frame, swinging arm and tank over to the UK to have replicas manufactured. I met a man at Stafford Classic bike show a couple of years ago who recognized the bike as the one he discovered in a frame builders who was waiting (the frame builder) for Peter to reappear. However this racer bought the frame and rebuilt it using a TZ 250 engine which he subsequently raced in the TT.
He rebuilt the engine as a 350 and reinforced the frame above the swinging arm pivot with a 1” tube running across the frame. Subsequently to this it again went through further hands until I bought on ebay some fours years ago. I have restored it to much like its’ original condition, as much as my budget ( couldn’t afford Campag wheels) will allow.

I believe it is the first of the ‘Low Boy’ type frames coming two years before the Kenny Roberts Rob North ‘Low Boy’ and three years before the TZ ‘F’.

The frame is called a ‘FREPIN’ after FREd Mclean and Peter PINoin and is only one of 6 or 7 built and possibly the only one still on wheels although other frames do exist and indeed replicas are being built.

At Stafford in October we have the ‘Real race Bikes UK’ stand in the Main Hall which will feature ‘special frames’.

If anyone has more info on this machine please contact me.


Hi Tony,

That is one very special bike you own and beautifully restored, thanks to you. :up: :up: Sorry, I can't help you with the history of the 'low boy' frames.

Don


#42 GD66

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 00:07

The frame is called a ‘FREPIN’ after FREd Mclean and Peter PINoin and is only one of 6 or 7 built and possibly the only one still on wheels although other frames do exist and indeed replicas are being built.



Very hard to say how many were built, or are still about Tony but 6 or 7 would be pretty well on the mark, as a few have surfaced in latter years. They are indeed an interesting piece of kit. A mate of mine here in Perth has one still on wheels and I think Murray De Lacy has one under his workbench as well. Although I've never seen any pics one was also built to house a TZ500. Will see if I can get a couple of pics of the Frepin here. Nice bike, mate.

Edited by GD66, 20 May 2013 - 07:35.


#43 picblanc

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 17:31

Two photos of Dave Potters TZ750 Yamaha as last raced @ Oulton Park 1981, completely original & untouched since that day.
These photos were sent to me by Chris Broad about 4 or 5 years a go & are copyrighted to him, I have only put my name on them to protect them & in no way do I claim ownership of photos.
Chris I believe has since decided to restore this bike to running/parading condition.
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Both Photos property Chris Broad.

#44 GD66

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:36

Good for him, Gra. That thing is far too sexy to be parked up in a garage, should be shared with Potter fans in my opinion.

Now, re the Frepin. Here are a few pics of my mate's 350 example that I took today. The reason for the delay in installing the cross-tube above the swingarm pivot may have been the drive chain's habit of munching into the tube : ooh-er !
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Quite nifty, and just from humping it out of the workshop for the pics, not heavy.

By chance, Murray the Frepin owner had this clipping in his archives... :eek:
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#45 picblanc

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 09:01

Almost ready to go that one!

#46 tonyed

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 16:55

Took some piccies of mine to show how this Frepin has been modified at the rear end. front looks the same however.

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#47 GD66

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:34

Frepin alert ! This Frepin has just been restored in Australia by Wayne "Wobbly" Wright : yummy, huh ?
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#48 chrisb

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:47

Two photos of Dave Potters TZ750 Yamaha as last raced @ Oulton Park 1981, completely original & untouched since that day.
These photos were sent to me by Chris Broad about 4 or 5 years a go & are copyrighted to him, I have only put my name on them to protect them & in no way do I claim ownership of photos.
Chris I believe has since decided to restore this bike to running/parading condition.
Posted Image

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Both Photos property Chris Broad.


........and running on track in the past masters at Mallory for the first time in 32 years. At last!

Chris

#49 fil2.8

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 20:00

........and running on track in the past masters at Mallory for the first time in 32 years. At last!

Chris




yes Chris , did notice it in the prog , will be great to see it again :up: :wave: , Bill Marks and I are re-united for the 1st time in 32 years also , in a ' racing ' mode , iv'e dragged him out on a tz350g


#50 Levin68

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:42

Re the Frepin, is that the same Fred McLean who worked with George Begg? He did great work on the cars and the frames look pretty slick.