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Historical apologies


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#1 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 03:59

Something unprecedented in my 60 years of personal experience in racing happened tonight. Tonight at the Richmond IRL race both the winner AND second place finisher, Scott Dixon and Dario Franchetti as well as at least two other drivers Davy Hamilton and Tony Kanaan publicly apologized to the fans for being involved in what Dario termed...

"An awful, awful race...terrible race." "We couldn't pass."

Perhaps this has happened before? A race and racing series so putrid the actual drivers, even the winners felt compelled to apologize to the fans for the embarrassment they felt at being involved in such a con job? Anybody among our knowledgeable membership here ever remember mass apologies to the fans from the drivers before in any racing series? Or has the IRL and Tony George brought us still another unprecedented low moment in racing history? Is this an historic first, a race so bad the winners were embarrassed to be a part of it? Has this ever happened before... anybody recall?

Edited by Buford, 28 June 2009 - 04:02.


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#2 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 04:04

I don't normally watch IRL, but I saw a few minutes of this event and kept wondering where the spectators were.

#3 TrackDog

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 05:52

I remember a NASCAR race at Loudon, NH a few years back that somebody SHOULD have apologized for...the cars ran restrictor plates for a reason I can't recall; Jeff Burton was the winner, and he led every lap.

I saw the Versus broadcast, and while Dixon bemoaned the inability to pass, only Dario really made a direct apology, as far as I could tell. I don't mean to take anything away from what Buford said in his original post...I agree with him wholeheartedly; this was a very dismal race, and Indy wasn't really much better. I kept hoping that the yellows would fall Hideki Mutoh's way, but they didn't. He did a really masterful job all night long, and should have won.


Dan

#4 fines

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 06:50

Oh, sorry! I thought this thread was Buford's long overdue apology for obfuscating and rewriting history... :rolleyes:

#5 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 07:16

Something unprecedented in my 60 years of personal experience in racing happened tonight. Tonight at the Richmond IRL race both the winner AND second place finisher, Scott Dixon and Dario Franchetti as well as at least two other drivers Davy Hamilton and Tony Kanaan publicly apologized to the fans for being involved in what Dario termed...

"An awful, awful race...terrible race." "We couldn't pass."

Perhaps this has happened before? A race and racing series so putrid the actual drivers, even the winners felt compelled to apologize to the fans for the embarrassment they felt at being involved in such a con job? Anybody among our knowledgeable membership here ever remember mass apologies to the fans from the drivers before in any racing series? Or has the IRL and Tony George brought us still another unprecedented low moment in racing history? Is this an historic first, a race so bad the winners were embarrassed to be a part of it? Has this ever happened before... anybody recall?

I attended two different dirt track races in Minn. where the announcer apologized for the lousy driving.

At the second it got to the point where the drivers were told, you spin you are out of the race, period.

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 08:03

I remember a NASCAR race at Loudon, NH a few years back that somebody SHOULD have apologized for...the cars ran restrictor plates for a reason I can't recall; Jeff Burton was the winner, and he led every lap.



Would that have been earlier in the decade when there were lots of crashes because of 'stuck throttles' and not over-stressed Goodyear right front tires?

#7 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:40

I attended two different dirt track races in Minn. where the announcer apologized for the lousy driving.

At the second it got to the point where the drivers were told, you spin you are out of the race, period.


Sorry Bob not everybody here here wants actual personal racing experience stories that were not found in a 60-year-old box of papers that smell like a damp basement where they can then pretend to be the big blowhard authority about because nobody else has the stinking box. That's interesting that you actually have heard an apology for bad racing before. Wonder if anybody else has? I remember a race that certainly should have had one. I recall the Indy Car race at Caesars Palace was run on Saturday and then on Sunday they had a West Coast NASCAR race which nearly the entire "race" was run on the yellow because they couldn't go a half lap without going off into the sandbox. It was even worse than the early years IRL races with the bumpkins in the crap wagons where a huge percentage of the races had 50% yellow flag laps. I don't think they ran 10% of that Las Vegas race on the green and the crowd booed the whole race and many around me were going to storm the box office for their money back.

I recall we got an apology from Michelin for the disaster at the US Grand Prix but I don't think we got one from NASCAR last year for the disaster at the Brickyard 400. I'm still interested if anybody recalls drivers, especially the first and 2nd place. finishers openly apologizing to the fans for a terrible race.

#8 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 09:59

Oh, sorry! I thought this thread was Buford's long overdue apology for obfuscating and rewriting history... :rolleyes:



I am quite aware you are trying to provoke me so your administrator pal has grounds to ban me and therefore you would no longer feel the insecurity of not actually having any real life racing knowledge or experience beyond what you read in old books. I find that pathetic yet rather funny at the same time and it's not my fault you appear to not be able to contribute any "I experienced this myself information" to this forum. You wouldn't need to if you weren't such a crybaby about others that can and the fact you are perfectly capable of being so clueless you don't even understand that race drivers of the 1950s considered most of the equipment they were driving pieces of crap where you consider them to be priceless works of art. That is the difference of actually having met many of them and eventually being one of them in a later era as opposed to worshiping stuff from behind a desk and shield of your own gutlessness and or ineptitude. I wasn't too afraid by the way to devote a major portion of my life, bankroll, and soul into the sport in numerous capacities as well as the driving seat and tough shit if that sticks in your craw little man. My racing history is real from being there. Yours is fantasy and the work of others you simply plagiarized.

This is the problem with trying to be an expert about a sport you never did anything in. I am sure you will not get a warning to stop the personal attacks because little girls who hide behind the administrator's skirts don't have to worry about that do they? I started out making a list of some of the other mind-boggling stupid and out of touch with real racing world reality statements you have made, but after it got to be a page long I decided the hell with it. You aren't worth the effort and nobody else cares about these little hissy fits on a internet forum anyway. Sorry I had a more interesting life that you and actually met and knew many of the people you could only dream you could have met but your pathetic raging jealousy is not my cross to bear.

Fact is on the actual thread topic rather than your lame personal attack, which of course there will be nothing done about... Your hero Tony George has driven the sport down to the level the drivers are actually feeling compelled to apologize to the handful of fans that are left. You supported this con game all along and you must be pretty embarrassed it has gone so far into the toilet, so you lash out at someone who was right all along that this would end in disaster. Tony George wrecked our sport and you supported it all the way. You aren't a Rhodes scholar are you?

Edited by Buford, 28 June 2009 - 11:13.


#9 thomaskomm

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 13:15

I don't normally watch IRL, but I saw a few minutes of this event and kept wondering where the spectators were.



Hi trackdog, it was 2000 and Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin dies on the loudon track, that was the reason for the plates racing..

Thomas :wave:

#10 fines

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 13:56

Wow, somebody getting real worked up...

FYI, Bufe, I am hardly a pal of any of the admins here, the thought of it! :drunk: Neither am I insecure because of not having any "real life racing experience" - the mere fact that you keep on trumpeting about something so insignificant as that is, imho, ample proof of your own insecurity in life, but that being your problem not mine, and you may suit yourself - it isn't what makes you so repulsive.

You talk about "little girls who hide", yet what are you? You haven't even the guts to tell us your real name, and I (like most others here) know perfectly well why that is so. It's fine to live in a delusional world as long as you don't bother others, but I find it totally unacceptable the way you spit your vile lies and insults around. Yes, perhaps it would be best for TNF if you were banned, but this board has bigger problems.

But, to spare you the energy of further "attacks", if you weren't so busy living in your dream world (talk about clueless! :lol:) you would already have noticed that I never supported the IRL or Tony George, I have never even watched an IRL race on the telly so far :lol:, I am simply not interested in it. I was just trying to counter your rather bizarre version of "reality", just for the sake of accuracy for which this board once was famous. I guess it doesn't really matter anymore, but old habits die hard... :D

So, get back in your little basket and stop slavering. You talk about me being envious of your life, but what is there to be envious of, even if it were all true? You are so proud of having been there "in real life", yet you haven't understood a thing, that is like having sex without feeling anything. If it makes you feel better, go on and believe what you want to believe... :yawnface:

#11 Flat Black 84

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 14:24

In answer to Buford's original question, no, I don't recall public apologies for atrocious racing. And having snoozed through the Richmond race, I can confirm that apologies were certainly in order!

Now that said, the letters USA no longer stand for United States of America, but rather Unending Stream of Apologies. It is de rigeur in our therapeutic, feel-good age for celebrities to issue public apologies for everything, whether the mea culpas are sincere or not. So part of what happened at Richmond is a cultural phenomenon, a tick of modern America's collective consciousness.

But decending from the ether again, I note that Versus' announcers were also implicitly acknowledging the lousiness of the racing when discussing new rules soon to be implemented, which theoretically will return actual passing to its rightful place in racing. Moreover, the announcers seemed very much in favor of the new rules.

And in conclusion, all I can say is my, oh my, what a ghastly race. It really did dawn on me as I was watching the procession last night, that I was just wasting my time. That was a first in my years of watching open-wheel racing. I'd prefer it to be a last, too.

#12 Lemnpiper

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 17:19



Hi Guys,


Wernt there a lot of apologies after the 2008 Brickyard tires fiasco? Plus if it happens this year after all the claims it wont last night's problems will seem very very minor.





Paul

#13 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 19:36

You talk about "little girls who hide", yet what are you? You haven't even the guts to tell us your real name, and I (like most others here) know perfectly well why that is so. It's fine to live in a delusional world as long as you don't bother others, but I find it totally unacceptable the way you spit your vile lies and insults around. Yes, perhaps it would be best for TNF if you were banned, but this board has bigger problems.

But, to spare you the energy of further "attacks", if you weren't so busy living in your dream world (talk about clueless! :lol:) you would already have noticed that I never supported the IRL or Tony George,


I don't tell you my real name because I have enjoyed watching fools and Tony George bootlickers try to figure it out for 15 years. And fail or misidentify repeatedly. BTW I never claimed to have been a star, I just said I was there and I was and can prove it. I don't need to prove it to somebody like you, but to somebody important who can vouch for me and has. I have done so. Those who have a need to know, or who I feel like telling, they already know so I am not totally hidden. There is one person who knows who I am for example and some of you here may know who he is. Has anybody heard of Don Capps. A career USA military officer and decorated American war hero, who is also a well known authority on the sport of auto racing. Many would call him the very symbol of not only integrity, but someone who would not ever be conned by "vile lies" or anyone posturing to be something or someone they aren't. He once started a forum on auto racing history called "The Nostalgia Forum." Some of you may have heard of it. Would Don Capps allow "vile lies" and a fraud to ever post on The Nostalgia Forum does anybody think? Or would he maybe fly halfway across the country to visit and stay in the house of that person, and meet his often quoted parents and then proclaim publicly if if wasn't true...

http://forums.autosp...w...68878&st=40

Buford is the Real Deal and I have seen the documentation and know a great deal about Buford and his racing activities. I am generally unimpressed with most of the snide, childish remarks that many of you use as junior grade Karl Roves in attacking anyone who just might actually know something about racing from the inside. Buford may be many things, but one thing he most certainly was along the way was a pretty fair racing driver -- which is far more than most of us could ever say.

http://forums.autosp...uford real deal

Buford is doing fine and very busy with his "endeavors." He and I exchanged emails several weeks ago. "Buford" is the nom de guerre of someone whose exploits in the world of Midwest racing are not only entertaining but the Real Deal. Buford is someone with strong opinions and expresses them freely and bluntly. As exasperating as Buford could be at times (like many of us), it was always clear as to where he stood and, most importantly, why on certain issues, most particularly those concerning the CART/IRL schism and Boy, er, ah, Tony George.

Just type "Buford" into the search feature and sit back and be prepared to be entertained.


Actually there is more but I will let it go at that. And as for who is telling "vile lies" and living in a dream world I quote these comments by a poster named Fines.

6/28/09

if you weren't so busy living in your dream world (talk about clueless! :lol:) you would already have noticed that I never supported the IRL or Tony George,

8/3/03
http://forums.autosp...uford real deal

Regardless of what you think of Tony George, I still stand by my reckoning that he saved the Indy 500 from doom!


Back to your world of fantasy and document unattributed plagiarism... you bore me little man. I will continue to talk about things I actually saw and in some cases PARTICIPATED IN for the last 60 years. Thanks to those of you who answered on topic without lame attacks.

#14 Steffe Ornerdal

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 19:41

Calm down, gents.

The thread title is "Historical apologies", so please do!

You are booth respected members of TNF and this is not the way we want to go.

Stefan



#15 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 19:47

Please note I never once over many years attacked this windbag and often enjoyed his contributions, until he started coming after me in the last few months. I don't lie down to ankle biters, but I do apologize to those of you who don't like hissy fits. If he attacks me again I will respond again.

#16 Buford

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 20:49

"I have to apologize to the fans because that was an awful, awful race," said the 2007 IndyCar champion. "It was no fun out there for anybody because we were sliding around all night and hanging on and we couldn't pass. "There's nothing the drivers can do about it. We're trying as hard as we can. It was a terrible race."

"I don't know how you guys stayed awake," said Franchitti to the assembled media around his car as he climbed out. "That damn near put me to sleep."


http://auto-racing.s...-race-notebook/

#17 TrackDog

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 22:40

Hi trackdog, it was 2000 and Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin dies on the loudon track, that was the reason for the plates racing..

Thomas :wave:


Thanks for jogging my memory...I didn't remember the year. Under the circumstances, I guess caution on NASCAR's part was prudent. Not exciting, but prudent.


Dan


#18 Rob G

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Posted 28 June 2009 - 23:24

Now that said, the letters USA no longer stand for United States of America, but rather Unending Stream of Apologies. It is de rigeur in our therapeutic, feel-good age for celebrities to issue public apologies for everything, whether the mea culpas are sincere or not. So part of what happened at Richmond is a cultural phenomenon, a tick of modern America's collective consciousness.

Ironic, though, that neither driver in question is American.

#19 Lemnpiper

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 00:14



Buford,



I have a couple questions for you to comment on if you'd like.

1. Do you think in hindsight once the dirt tracks were dropped from the national championship that eventauly the skills needed to drive fast at Indy in the rear engined cars would be more often found in racers based in the minor series that used rear engined cars and that those series would become the new suppliers for drivers at the Indy 500?Do THOSE folks owe us an apology for setting this mess in motion back in the early 1970's

2. Why did those aerodynamic Silver crown car flop so badly ? Cuz i think if you ever wanted to get front engined cars back at indy those were a potential way to go.( Also provide better supply spource for more americans hone their skills.) Do WE owe them an apology for not supporting that effort at change?

3 Are NASCAR racers hitting the top speed at indy for any potential front engine machine? ( Was Hurtibise quicker in the Mallard?)IF not what do you beleive would be the maximum lap speeds attainable at INDY for a front engined Indy car?


Sorry if this was the wrong place to submit these questions but as i read both sides of the discuasion on AOW i fear we are at the point where the past cant be returned to no matter how we may want it to happen and all true fans would be more inclined to help present viable options for all to consider to improve AOW's health before it becomes a minor series with even less coverage than the little it has now.






Paul


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#20 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 00:21

I've seen some in NASCAR but I can't remember any specifics. NASCAR is very fan-friendly.

#21 Buford

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 01:06



1. Do you think in hindsight once the dirt tracks were dropped from the national championship that eventauly the skills needed to drive fast at Indy in the rear engined cars would be more often found in racers based in the minor series that used rear engined cars and that those series would become the new suppliers for drivers at the Indy 500?Do THOSE folks owe us an apology for setting this mess in motion back in the early 1970's


I come from an unusual background in that I grew up in an oval racing family, but did most of my adult racing on road courses. Yes dropping the dirt races and eventually adding more road races by USAC and later CART tilted the balance to road racers getting the rides, but IMO that didn't have to be. The good old boys dirt trackers did nothing to help themselves, nothing to gain rear engine experience, but instead bitched in their beer and called anybody who raced road courses pretty boys and fags. I know this because they did it to me. If I could spend over a decade begging my way into both oval and road racing rides, with no money to buy rides, trying to gain enough experience to be taken seriously, and to be considered for a ride in an Indy Car on merit, what was keeping them, most far better funded than I was, from doing the same? I am so sick to death of the lemmings blaming CART for not hiring Jeff Gordon when he thought he was ready despite the fact he had absolutely no rear engine experience and had made no effort to get any. Of course he ultimately turned out to be a great driver but he had no credentials that fit what he thought he was entitled to be doing at that time. Because he, like all of the other oval racers with very rare exceptions, thought they were too good to go out and run "amateur racing" in a Formula Ford or Formula Atlantic or in those days Formula Super Vee, to get some appropriate experience.

They brought it on themselves by thinking their form of racing was the only form of racing and sitting on their asses and waiting to be picked and anointed like great race car driver saviors like may have happened 25 years before in a few cases. JC Agajanian wasn't around anymore but there was a answer for American drivers to beat out the Europeans and South Americans to get one of the handful of Indy Car rides that came available. It was known as DRIVE FASTER AND CRASH LESS. The American dirt trackers when they did get a test simply got their asses blown off. While it's true that I never got a chance despite my background of racing anything I could get into, I at least got taken seriously a couple of times and was in considersation, where people like Jeff Gordon (later on) didn't even get that because they never got off their asses and made any effort to prepare themselves for the road race portion of the schedule. They kept driving their dinosaur front engine cars and calling everybody else "*******." Of course some moron will now come along who never raced and only knows what he knows from reading books and will say that wasn't true. But it is... the oval racers let it slip past them by not keeping up to date. I tried and it didn't work but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have worked for some.

2. Why did those aerodynamic Silver crown car flop so badly ? Cuz i think if you ever wanted to get front engined cars back at indy those were a potential way to go.( Also provide better supply spource for more americans hone their skills.) Do WE owe them an apology for not supporting that effort at change?


I think it was the same thing I touched upon above. The people who race those things, cool is they are in their own way, are anachronisms in today's world. They're essentially racing updated 1930s race cars and they think that's all there is. Would a modern-day version of roadsters with a safety capsule make for better racing than what we are seeing today? Could anything be worse? But I direct you back to YouTube videos of the early 1990s. That was great racing and it did not need fixing. It was destroyed by a power grab from a cocaine burnout and his Messiah seeking followers. It is as simple as that.

3 Are NASCAR racers hitting the top speed at indy for any potential front engine machine? ( Was Hurtibise quicker in the Mallard?)IF not what do you beleive would be the maximum lap speeds attainable at INDY for a front engined Indy car?

I am not a technical guy I really can't answer that. I doubt that they would be going any slower than the restricted crap wagons they are racing now.

Sorry if this was the wrong place to submit these questions but as i read both sides of the discuasion on AOW i fear we are at the point where the past cant be returned to no matter how we may want it to happen and all true fans would be more inclined to help present viable options for all to consider to improve AOW's health before it becomes a minor series with even less coverage than the little it has now.

I'm perfectly happy to see it all go down the tubes. That wasn't my desire for many years but it is today. I think the followers of Tony George are getting exactly what the richly deserved. I am laughing my ass off at this pathetic destruction of the sport because I warned was going to happen as long ago as 15 years ago and so did many other people. Now it's time to pay the piper for those who were incredibly stupid. Good riddance... piss on it.








#22 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 03:14

Ironic, though, that neither driver in question is American.


True. But both have lived and worked in the States long enough to have picked up the contagion and Dario is married to a chick who makes her living in Hollywood, one of the epicenters of the apologocracy.


#23 Lemnpiper

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 04:30



Buford ,


Fair enough answers to my previous post's questions.

In regards to jeff Gordon , i believe he looked at who was getting the rides by the late 1980's onwards and he decided to do like Tim Richmond did and jump to NASCAR when he had a chance. Perhaps that defection was part of what got Tony George eager to form the IRL. The influx of non dirt track guys was in full swing by the early 1980 due in part to that mini indy series that had been created
At the minimum it did delay Tony Stewart from doin like Jeff Gordon and allowed tony to compete in a few Indy 500's after all.
So instead of Jeff Gordon i believe Tim Richmond should be looked upon as the driver that really got the ball rolling of drivers in lower USAC series goin to NASCAR over CART at 1st and later the IRL.

Paul

#24 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 07:38

I attended two different dirt track races in Minn. where the announcer apologized for the lousy driving.

At the second it got to the point where the drivers were told, you spin you are out of the race, period.

That should happen more often.Sprintcar B mains taking an hour are bloody rediculous!
As for boring races on one lane tracks some of the promoters and rule makers should be apologising!
F1 shot its legs off with that bullshit Indy race a couple of years ago as did Nascar with the similar circumstance.

#25 McGuire

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 13:07

In answer to Buford's original question, no, I don't recall public apologies for atrocious racing. And having snoozed through the Richmond race, I can confirm that apologies were certainly in order!

Now that said, the letters USA no longer stand for United States of America, but rather Unending Stream of Apologies. It is de rigeur in our therapeutic, feel-good age for celebrities to issue public apologies for everything, whether the mea culpas are sincere or not. So part of what happened at Richmond is a cultural phenomenon, a tick of modern America's collective consciousness.


Interesting point. I remember one year at Milwaukee where Foyt led all 100 laps from flag to flag, lapping the field. Nobody even got close. However, I don't believe it ever once occurred to AJ to get out afterward and apologize to the audience for boring them. Hilarious to contemplate, isn't it? There is our laugh for the day.

Races like these were not the least bit unusual, especially on the short tracks. That was open-wheel racing at Phoenix or Milwaukee: One to three guys would hit the setup and check out. Everyone else was in a different race. That was a typical mile race for many years. And personally, I loved it.

But today with the TV/ADD generation, we can't have that kind of racing. This audience demands passing like Talladega and video-game action or they will change the channel. And so there is managed competiton in every series from NASCAR to F1, mainly for the benefit of television. Managed competition requires a difficult and essentially unstable balance: make the cars similar enough and you get close racing; make the cars too similar and you get no racing at all. Meanwhile, this style of competition has changed the way people watch auto racing. The sport used to be measured by performance and execution; now it's by number of passes for the lead. Every fan is a stage manager. No racing series has much real choice about this. It's give the people what they want or the people will go away. And so we are now headed from managed competition to micro-managed competition. Just as television shows and politicians are ruled by the weekly polls, so will be auto racing.

It's a different sport now with a different set of metrics. I can remember when a "good race" was when nobody was killed and the promoter did not embezzle the purse. Fans did not demand a maximum level of action, contrived if necessary. They took the sport for what it was, and it was great. I'm not sure how many fans even know how to watch an auto race anymore.

#26 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 13:38

I think McGuire raises a good point...

Is passing necessary to make a good race? Was it always so?

I agree, there have been good and entertaining races in days gone by when there wasn't much in the way of a battle for the lead.

However, in this case it seems that there were two cars running close together, but they didn't get involved in an actual dice for the lead because it was impossible to do any passing.

But surely there was pressure on both drivers? Isn't that part of the game?

Or is it that today's drivers are so good, so perfect and so much in control that they can't make mistakes under pressure?

Interesting stats, too, on John Morrison. For years Buford only ever posted interesting, entertaining and informative material on this forum. He let it be known that he detested Tony George and the IRL thing, and in RC he pushed that line very hard, but here on TNF he didn't make much fuss about it.

#27 MPea3

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 13:41

I don't remember any instance of a driver apologizing, but didn't Tony Stewart voice his opinion that Goodyear should apologize to the fans?

As to the other matter that seems to have dominated this thread, I've decided to ignore good advice and open my mouth.

Buford and fines, both of you seem to have forgotten - or never learned - that two well intentioned people can see the same facts and draw different conclusions. In this instance it seems exacerbated by both of you being stubborn. There has been plenty of rancor and baiting on both sides, but before you both start excusing your behavior, I'll mention this.

I don't care how it began. "Mommy, he started it" is not a concept I care about when it's deteriorated to the point it has. For a long time this forum was unusual from any other internet bulletin board I had ever seen because of it's civil nature. How it's moderated is none of my business but it would be nice if BOTH of you could decide to take the high road and just let it go. If the other guy snipes, BFD (big deal).

Second, I don't care who is right. If I walk down the street to the local pub and tell the bartender that his mother is ugly, and if a result of that a fight breaks out every time, the fact that she really IS ugly doesn't matter. The fight is my fault and whether or not I'm right is meaningless. Most of the conclusions and opinions that have brewed this have been voiced repeatedly. As the saying goes, "I heard you the first hundred times".

Michael, your knowledge and research is absolutely amazing and one of the highlights of this board. Often I'll see a subject or question posted and can't wait for your response. But to steal a line from another member who's declined to enter into this fight, knowledge doesn't always equal understanding.

Buford, your experiences are also one of the highlights of this board. Your mouth is not. That you seem to think that your responses to people here is in any way interesting, entertaining, relevant, or even respectable is puzzling. For me they're none of those.

No one wins with this sort of argument and behavior. It's also not the reason I sign on to TNF. I'd respectfully ask that both of you just drop it and go back to contributing what each of you has. That experience and knowledge combined with civil disagreement is (was?) what makes TNF great.

#28 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 13:44

Something unprecedented in my 60 years of personal experience in racing happened tonight. Tonight at the Richmond IRL race both the winner AND second place finisher, Scott Dixon and Dario Franchetti as well as at least two other drivers Davy Hamilton and Tony Kanaan publicly apologized to the fans for being involved in what Dario termed...

"An awful, awful race...terrible race." "We couldn't pass."

Perhaps this has happened before? A race and racing series so putrid the actual drivers, even the winners felt compelled to apologize to the fans for the embarrassment they felt at being involved in such a con job? Anybody among our knowledgeable membership here ever remember mass apologies to the fans from the drivers before in any racing series? Or has the IRL and Tony George brought us still another unprecedented low moment in racing history? Is this an historic first, a race so bad the winners were embarrassed to be a part of it? Has this ever happened before... anybody recall?



Not exactly an apology but a comment about one of the Brickyards in 2002 or thereabout when a journalist wrote a quat inspired on the famous phrase by Winston Churchill whenhe praised the RAF pilots for winning the Battle of Britain. If I remember it correctly it reas something like:

"Never before in history did so many people turn up for such little action by so few people"


As I read this race report I got the feeling i rear a race report about a 1928 or so board track event.....


Henri

#29 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:38

Good post, McGuire. Much food for thought there.

I will say this, however: you might be able to make passing well nigh impossible and still have gripping--so to speak--racing. Eliminate passing and the danger element, however, and what you've got is an anodyne procession of pretty cars. Modern automobile racing (and not just IRL) has come very close to eliminating passing and the element of danger. In the process, it may be close to eliminating itself.

PS--Was it my imagination or did it seem as though Franchitti actually had no interest whatsoever in even attempting to pass Dixon? He never once even took a peek down low or attempted to run a slightly different line. It seemed as though he was quite content to finish in second. Now maybe that was not the case. Maybe Dario knew there was absolutely no way he could pass Dixon and to attempt doing so would be foolhardy. But the impression of a lack of competitiveness was unappealing and I have a hard time imagining the great drivers of yore taking such a milquetoast approach to racing.

Edited by Flat Black 84, 29 June 2009 - 14:42.


#30 brabhamBT19

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:43

Both Dario Franchitti and Scott Dixon are wonderfull persons, too shame they are not spending their carrers in more decent series.

#31 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:44

Both Dario Franchitti and Scott Dixon are wonderfull persons, too shame they are not spending their carrers in more decent series.


What series is better? Frankly, the vast majority of big-money racing seems to experience the same problems that plague IRL.


#32 brabhamBT19

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:51

What series is better? Frankly, the vast majority of big-money racing seems to experience the same problems that plague IRL.



They are both F1 material

#33 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:54

F1 seems to be in a political shambles and the passing problems exist there as well. More money and prestige in F1, perhaps, but that's about it. Entertainment value is no better, perhaps even a bit worse, in my opinion.

This is veering well off topic, incidentally.

#34 JacnGille

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 14:58

... because most of us on the boards are sick of reading him rant on and on and on...


Most of us???????????? I didn't give you permission to speak for me. I bet others haven't either. I enjoy readin of Buford's exploits and behind the scenes tales. A few of his stories hit home from my many years as an SCCA worker, racer and race team member. I've even seen him race at the SCCA Runoffs...but don't know who he is.
In the future Please only speak for yourself.

#35 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 15:03

They are both F1 material


They really aren't, and they're far too nice/professional for that series anyways.

#36 RStock

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 15:16

I think McGuire raises a good point...

Is passing necessary to make a good race? Was it always so?

I agree, there have been good and entertaining races in days gone by when there wasn't much in the way of a battle for the lead.


Good point Mr. Bell . I think we can all remember the days when we were lucky to even have two cars on the lead lap , much less a battle for the lead . As McGuire points out , often a few guys would "hit" the setup and check out . I've often paraphrased that old addage about war to describe racing , it's hours of sheer boredom punctuated by moments of sheer excitement . It's those exciting moments that brought us back for more .

The problem with that was , in an attempt to appeal to the general public , that approach didn't work . They feel the need to monkey around with the show to produce passing . One thing the networks have learned is that often , the best action is going on towards the back of the grid . The latest F1 race was a good example , where Alonso and Hamilton had a nice little fight going on towards the back .


#37 Russ Snyder

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 15:21

Hey Buford.... I would add the 2008 Brickyard where NASCAR afterwards apologized for having a caution every 10-11 laps to check tires. That was a silly affair with no real racing or passing that I can't believe I sat and watched. I hope this year they return to some good racing.

My question is to the point here, why no passing @ Richmond this past saturday? I think I have the answer, but I would like to hear from some of the folks out there as to why there was no real racing in this race.

#38 RStock

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 15:25

I am so sick to death of the lemmings blaming CART for not hiring Jeff Gordon when he thought he was ready despite the fact he had absolutely no rear engine experience and had made no effort to get any.


At the risk of being dubbed a lemming , I'll say I do blame CART for letting Gordon get away . I blame them for not having a system in place to make sure Gordon and fellows like him could make it to CART . Contrast the difficulty of landing a spot on a CART team to the free and open door at NASCAR . I see Bill France's hand all over making sure Gordon (and others) were in his show . It's not out in the open , but I'm pretty sure he worked behind the scenes to get them there .

I also blame the American short track scene for being so adverse to rear-engine cars . Anytime they showed up , they were soon banned .

And one final point , where the hell did Mario Andretti learn to road-race and get experience in rear-engine cars ?


And Buford , add me to the list of those that enjoy your rants . Don't go changing .

#39 Buford

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 15:54

Thank you JacnGille and point taken MPea3. I DID NOT start it and there is too much "bitter" "old" (lol) racer in me to allow creeps to attack me without responding. Just like I never allowed them to pass without a fight, if they were in my own class anyway. I cannot promise Lily white behavior but I will not continue the pissing contest with Fines if he we will back off with the Utopian hero worship agenda that cannot stomach my real life experiences as being valid because they do not always portray the sport in the fantasy world he dreams it as being. I do respect his research, but not his understanding. That's fine as long as he does not continue to "snipe" at me. I agree to a brokered peace but I do not promise to lay down unilaterally. Never did, never will. I promise no such good behavior with the stalker however. By the way I was never injured so his head injuries charges are as ludicrous as his stalker posting record.

While I almost never agree with McGuire, I do with his post on this thread. I think the overwhelmingly negative reaction to the Richmond race however, fans reportedly leaving in droves with 100 laps to go, and an outright rebellion among the most avid "see no evil" TG worshipers fan base at Track Forum is a final once and for all groundswell of frustration over the crap that is put on the track these days under the name Indy Cars. There are two groups dissatisfied IMO. The "Old timers" (if 15 years is a long time) who remember the best Indy Car racing of all times, with routinely 7 to 9 different season winners, multiple chassis and engines, and a new team coming in and winning it all in its second season. We do not think a decade and a half is too long ago to remember CART of the early 1990s. Things were changed under promises of making it better, that were not delivered on. It was made much much worse in every conceivable area and we do not accept that our warnings and resistance from the beginning is now not relevent because it is "living in the past." What we most feared and warned against has come to pass, and this group is not letting you all forget it. Look at any Internet forum or call in show. It is hardly just me lol. We told you so.

The second group up in arms however is the ones who supported the various "visions" all along for whatever reason. What they recall as being great racing was the side by side Nascar style (as McGuire correctly labels managed racing) the IRL presented about 5 years ago. They feel if it was possible then, this style of pack racing they liked, and with an arguably even poorer driver lineup than today, then they know damn well the IRL management has screwed something up because they are basically the same cars. This group, hypocrites in my opinion but the IRL's core base, feel betrayed (finally) and for the first time feel they are being duped and played for suckers, much like the other group has felt since the IRL's beginning. When a long time shill for the IRL like Turn 13 says he's giving up trying to defend the IRL against its detractors (on Track Forum) and the sisters cutting off the feed bag, little Tony is in big big trouble. He lost the "bitter" "old" fans at the beginning with the lies and horrid 25/8. Now he is losing his base with stuff like IRL officials jury rigging with the start at Indy to try to keep the incompetents from pulling an embarrassing USA 500 or 1966/1973 start disaster, trying to keep the heartwarming IRL 500 winner from climbing the fence, and now the same cars who use to give them their glorious contrived pack racing can't make a pass at all. No A.J. Foyt never apologized for winning 10 out of 13 races in 1964. But the racing was still exciting then because you never knew who would still be alive at the end of the next lap.

I can remember when a "good race" was when nobody was killed and the promoter did not embezzle the purse.


My hat is off to McGuire (this time) for that. Great line and so true. I consider sarcastic gallows humor based on truth to be my job around here. Dammit pisses me off I didn't think of that first.



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#40 Voodoo Bob

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 20:39

And Buford , add me to the list of those that enjoy your rants . Don't go changing .


I too am one that enjoys reading about Buford's exploits, although I have to say that, given his vigor when defending himself, I'd rather take on the local pit bull than make him mad. :)

I'm beginning to think of him as TNF's version of the Stig. Some say he once told AJ Foyt to piss off...

#41 brabhamBT19

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 21:30

I too enjoy reading bufford posts, but I never knew he was here incognito.

Whom could he be? He never unvieled his identity?

From what I read here on TNF and paddock, he was interested in roadracing and OW, so that rules out nascar and he ran out of money in the middle of his carrer, he is 61 so was probably racing in 70s and 80s, he also I think tried to qualify once for Indy500 if I'm right. Why does he keep his identity secret?

Edited by brabhamBT19, 29 June 2009 - 21:31.


#42 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 21:34

Buford T. Poster

#43 RStock

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 21:50

I too am one that enjoys reading about Buford's exploits, although I have to say that, given his vigor when defending himself, I'd rather take on the local pit bull than make him mad. :)


I think that while most of us don't express ourselves as vociferously as Buford , we understand and share his frustration at what an utter pile of crap the Indy car series and the Indy 500 in particular has become .







I'm beginning to think of him as TNF's version of the Stig. Some say he once told AJ Foyt to piss off...



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Posted Image


#44 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 21:52

I too enjoy reading bufford posts, but I never knew he was here incognito.

Whom could he be? He never unvieled his identity?

From what I read here on TNF and paddock, he was interested in roadracing and OW, so that rules out nascar and he ran out of money in the middle of his carrer, he is 61 so was probably racing in 70s and 80s, he also I think tried to qualify once for Indy500 if I'm right. Why does he keep his identity secret?


If you read more of his posts, BT19, you'd know.


#45 Flat Black 84

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 22:20

Posted Image

Edited by Flat Black 84, 29 June 2009 - 22:23.


#46 Buford

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 22:23

Originally it was because I was in the "adult entertainment" business and you don't reveal your identity on the Internet with the right wing lunatics around. But then when the Speednet Lemmings went on an all out, no holds barred effort to discredit me, which included taking the name off of a charity check I sent to paralyzed driver Bob Hurt, signed from the business account by my business partner, and publicized his name as being me, and claiming I was a fraud because there was no record of anybody with that name racing etc, and proclaiming I was an ex con drug addict, it got personal. Since then I have enjoyed frustrating them.

In all honesty you would never have heard of me, but it doesn't mean I wasn't around for a long time. I am not gonna tell you how, but at least 3 things I have stated here would make it easy to figure out who I am. Since my parents are dead now, I don't need to hide what I was doing for a living anymore. But I like it like it is. With ranting nut cases like this John Morrison around, I will remain slightly behind the curtain. I have never felt the need for a gun but with these *******s around and cheap tickets available to Las Vegas, you never know when one of these loonies will show up. Don Capps knows who I am, Whitewater knows, Ray Bell knows. All have stated I am the real thing as far as what I have said about my whereabouts and activities. JonPollack also knows. Mr Aerodynamist stayed at my house as did Don Capps. All have kept the secret. Anybody who comes to Las Vegas and wants to meet who hasn't given me either right wing or Lemming shit, I meet. I am not hiding in a cave.

I hate it when it gets around to who I am rather than what I say. This is why I tell very few actual driving myself stories and most I have are about my mistakes, crashes, disappointments, and times I looked like a fool. Nobody honest can say I ever touted myself as a hugely successful race driver in a Fines type paper trail. I was successful simply by doing it at all without money, for a long time when most people were in the grandstands. I wasn't anybody famous OK? I was a shitbox hero at best. That's all you need to know. Let's just call it this. I was a total failure and even now 30 years later am an embittered and friendless hermit OK? Most people who know me think I am hilarious... honest. They would be supriesed I am portrayed as a bitter old man. But please believe I am one... OK? Feel better now lol? Excuse me my tacos are ready.

#47 John M Cannon

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 22:33

Yeah, Buford's OK in my book.

#48 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 22:41

Some of the contributors have hit it on the head. Staged motorsport is boring, passing or no passing. The American racing ways that have been passed on have really caused this. Stop go's, yellow flags to bunch up the field. Coregraphed motor racing, it happens in F1 down and it is all so bloody boring and so obvious for real racers and fans.And then one groove slick tracks that accentuate this.
It is one of the reasons that I quit racing.
10 years ago I used to watch the F1s, the Indycars, some Nascar, The V8 Thupercars plus the 500s and superbikes. Seldom watch anything these days. And these days the bikes put on the purest racing, though I am not really a bike fan.
I seldom used to miss a good local and sometimes interstate Sprintcar show but these days the 410s have so much power they burn the track up and race at half throttle which can be so boring too. I saw 3 sprinter shows and 2 midget shows last season and was pissed off at most, left half way through a feature twice after about 6 restarts!!
A state level club meeting is often more appealing, both dirt and roadracing. Less bullshit and more racing.

#49 Buford

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 22:47

Two words Lee - Super Modifieds!!!

http://www.lvms.com/...supermodifieds/

Still something that can stand the hair up on the back of your neck. I will see them Thursday (if my bitterness and head injuries allow.)

No apologies - no surrender!!!

Edited by Buford, 29 June 2009 - 22:55.


#50 Tony Matthews

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Posted 29 June 2009 - 23:16

Hope you enjoyed your tacos Buford.