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#1 F1 Fan 6785

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 19:49

I am interested in any information people may have about the Cosworth F1 engine and what it will be like as an F1 engine. I have not seen or read much about the engine. Will it be competitive with the other engines. I heard Peter Windsor (US GP) say that it will only operate at the raised RPM that the new teams were going to get under the new rules for next year now the rules have changed and they will have the same 18,000 RPM rev limit what will happen to the engines performance. Is Cosworth capable of building a competitive engine what sort of development has it had. Anyone got any ideas?

Edited by F1 Fan 6785, 06 July 2009 - 19:56.


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#2 Clatter

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 20:23

Cosworth are more than capable of building a competitive engine. They have the 2006 homologated engine as a good starting point and there is no reason why they cannot bring that up to the current standard.

#3 ATM_Andy

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 20:30

Without pretty significant rework the CA-engine will be completely outclassed in both performance longevity and fuel economy.

#4 Madras

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 21:18

Without pretty significant rework the CA-engine will be completely outclassed in both performance longevity and fuel economy.


Yeah when you think about how much money the other teams were putting into their engines before the freeze it's going to take a lot of work.

#5 Josta

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 21:23

The homogolated cossie from 2006 wasn't as good as the Renault homogolated engine. Since then, Renault fell well behind the likes of Merc and Ferrari. Given the fact that Cosworth sacked half their staff, I find it hard to believe it will be anywhere now they don't have an unfair advantage.

#6 alfista

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 21:23

Without pretty significant rework the CA-engine will be completely outclassed in both performance longevity and fuel economy.

Is there anybody who knows what is the cost of Cosworth engines per team per year? I could only find Max mentioning "up-front payment of €1.97M and then €6.42M per year" for engine AND transmisson in case there are four users. Now we have three teams but allowed 30 000 km test limit is cut to virtually nothing.

#7 Muz Bee

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 22:01

Cosworth IMHO will need financial assurances by way of contracts to build a fair number (= money) to do the development work to catch up with the manufacturer V8s. I would be guessing but there will be engineers laid off post freeze (Mercedes, BMW, Renault) who will be on the market so provided the contracts and payments happen I think Cosworth can catch up fast. Fast however does not mean competitive by March 2010. On the other hand Cosworth have a vast history of V8 development (decades) as could be seen by the competitiveness of their last 2.4 litre engine in the Williiams against much bigger budgets.

It could all be irrelevant in view of the multiple controversies threatening F1. Unless they have certainty they will not jeopardise their survival. The new teams will be unlikely IMO to see a significantly uprated 2006 Cosworth for the start of 2010 if indeed any of them have a car ready anyway. FIA's short term thinking and governance by crisis will scupper most plans for new teams in 2010 just as it has enraged the FOTA teams with the budget cap proposal coming so late.

#8 mattorgen

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 22:12

I am interested in any information people may have about the Cosworth F1 engine and what it will be like as an F1 engine. I have not seen or read much about the engine. Will it be competitive with the other engines. I heard Peter Windsor (US GP) say that it will only operate at the raised RPM that the new teams were going to get under the new rules for next year now the rules have changed and they will have the same 18,000 RPM rev limit what will happen to the engines performance. Is Cosworth capable of building a competitive engine what sort of development has it had. Anyone got any ideas?


The performance guarantee is that Cosworth will guarantee that the engines provided will have a peak power of 750BHP +/- a manufacturing tolerance of 10BHP. There is also a reliability undertaking that in the event that any engine (that has not been abused) fails as a result of infant mortality (defined as less than 25% of the defined service life) then Cosworth will provide additional engine life, equivalent to the amount remaining on the failed unit, at no additional charge to the team. However, I don't believe that the engine manufacturer has made further commitments than these at this stage.

Edited by mattorgen, 06 July 2009 - 22:13.


#9 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 06 July 2009 - 23:26

Cosworth IMHO will need financial assurances by way of contracts to build a fair number (= money) to do the development work to catch up with the manufacturer V8s.


Racing is all about competing no?

If USF1 have $35m budget they will trail Force India by over $100m.

It's okay for USF1 to have a nice affordable racer's Cosworth engine with 50-100 less hp than a highly developed (expensive!) motor. It's also okay for USF1 to have a simple chassis, with no power steering, simple aerodynamics, in a heavy package or even overweight package with no allowance for ballast. :up:

They will be out there racing 5-8 seconds off pole, and having a ball fending off the Campos and Manor entries :clap: :up: After all F1 is all about the spirit of going racing, is it not!? :up:

#10 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 05:46

Racing is all about competing no?

If USF1 have $35m budget they will trail Force India by over $100m.

It's okay for USF1 to have a nice affordable racer's Cosworth engine with 50-100 less hp than a highly developed (expensive!) motor. It's also okay for USF1 to have a simple chassis, with no power steering, simple aerodynamics, in a heavy package or even overweight package with no allowance for ballast. :up:

They will be out there racing 5-8 seconds off pole, and having a ball fending off the Campos and Manor entries :clap: :up: After all F1 is all about the spirit of going racing, is it not!? :up:

I think Cosworth could come within 50HP of the others by March 2010 provided they are well under way with physical development NOW. But if you were Cosworth CEO would you be employing or re-employing enginners for this project without a very significant deposit from all three teams. You see, that's where I find it hard to believe in the substance of these new teams. If Virgin are up for Manor F1 naming rights sponsorship with what is understood to be their current tiny Brawn budget, where does Manor find funding to get to the grid by next March? Without another two new teams doing the same Cosworth will struggle to get the new motor race ready for Melbourne 2010. I'm sorry I just don't think the economic fundamentals look that likely.

Coming back to the original selection stage, Prodrive and Epsilon and maybe Lola looked the most likely starters. They are solid engineering operations rather than;

pie-in-the-sky shelf company F1 entities in mid 09 with nine months to get ALL their ducks in a row just to make the grid, regardless of competitiveness.

Cosworth will have downsized enormously since 06 and will be wary about major upsizing on the strength of wannabe racers with minimal corporate backing, little if any engineering track records at anything like this level, and no name drivers or personnel to boast of to prospective sponsors. The mountain is extremely high for Cosworth and the tiny trio and with 03/2010 as the first target, extremely steep. I hope this whole thing isn't the death of Cosworth, I won't lose much sleep over the dreamer teams.


#11 Muz Bee

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 05:56

Racing is all about competing no?

If USF1 have $35m budget they will trail Force India by over $100m.


I agree, if US F1 starting first down the path to F1 glory :lol: makes them the best placed of the three newbies it doesn't look a good customer mix for Cossie who need 3 teams to be viable we are told.

Peter Windsor was blathering on our radio waves 10 days ago by a journo who surprised me with his knowledge of the F1 scene. I got the distinct that there was more hot air in the US F1 proposed team than FIA's use of their name would have us assume. Hope it happens (luke warm hope) because it might keep Windsor quiet from his more and more ridiculous "journalistic" nonsenses. I doubt if corporate USA will be a great source of real money for this American Dream at this time.
:wave:


#12 Andy35

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 06:36

Apologies, I am a bit behind the curve here, can someone state whether it will be running to the same rules as the other engines in rev limit and number of races it has to do?

I've got rather lost I'm afraid with all the tooing and froing.

Regards

Andy

#13 F1 Fan 6785

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 08:30

I have not seen any details on what the 2010 rules will be other an a press release that said they will be the 2009 rules. Anyone know more? :confused:

#14 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 09:43

I have not seen any details on what the 2010 rules will be other an a press release that said they will be the 2009 rules. Anyone know more? :confused:

I believe that a part of the resolution with the FIA was that the 2009 rules would largely remain intact for 2010. There would be room for modifications to reduce costs; I believe the teams like the idea of banning refuelling for that very reason. But all I'm going by is Wikipedia.

#15 alfista

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 09:58

I have not seen any details on what the 2010 rules will be other an a press release that said they will be the 2009 rules. Anyone know more? :confused:


I read 2010 sporting rules yesterday from FIA website. Cost cap regulation (and every other crap point) is very much present so nothing has changed after the "agreement" between FOM/FIA/FOTA. How can new teams know what they are preparing for?

#16 brabhamBT19

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Posted 07 July 2009 - 10:29

consumption will be problem due to higher revs

#17 Melbourne Park

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 00:06

It doesn't make sense to buy a Cosworth, because there are other good engines available Surely having another engine maker will just increase F1's overall costs? With teams reducing their work forces, there would surely be great interest in the engine makers being able to provide 16 engines for an extra team? Or 32 engines for two extra teams? Using Cosworth is not a budget improving move IMO. the only reason Cosworth is there is a foil for the FOTA teams, which with the coming Concorde signing, should be no longer necessary.

As to performance, since Renault were able to upgrade their engine, I presume the FIA will allow Cosworth to further improve theirs if it turns out to lack comparable performance next year.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 08 July 2009 - 00:08.


#18 ch103

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 00:24

Without pretty significant rework the CA-engine will be completely outclassed in both performance longevity and fuel economy.


This is my fear as well. Ford Cosworth was once a staple but now its shrouded in mystery.

I only hope they strike lightning in a bottle and come out ready to take the fight to Force India.


#19 ch103

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 00:26

I agree, if US F1 starting first down the path to F1 glory :lol: makes them the best placed of the three newbies it doesn't look a good customer mix for Cossie who need 3 teams to be viable we are told.

Peter Windsor was blathering on our radio waves 10 days ago by a journo who surprised me with his knowledge of the F1 scene. I got the distinct that there was more hot air in the US F1 proposed team than FIA's use of their name would have us assume. Hope it happens (luke warm hope) because it might keep Windsor quiet from his more and more ridiculous "journalistic" nonsenses. I doubt if corporate USA will be a great source of real money for this American Dream at this time.
:wave:


A large multinational will sign up for sure.

Whether its Youtube or whoever, someone will take a chance on them.

Who is the chief designer on the Cosworth staff? Whats on their resume?

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#20 Muz Bee

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 00:59

A large multinational will sign up for sure.

Whether its Youtube or whoever, someone will take a chance on them.

Who is the chief designer on the Cosworth staff? Whats on their resume?

Mystery to me.... i just figure with the layoffs in the engine depts following the engine freeze there's plenty of experience out there. Cosworth could get back to competitive in 18 months IMHO.

I hope you're right about USA corporates. There's a lot of doom and gloom coming out of there and F1 has always flown below the radar for the great majority of USA who would surely represent any corporate's core market in a USA based team. It might as I said keep Windsor busy writing PR for them instead of his more and more ridiculous dreams about what's really happening in F1.

Good luck US F1 - bring back the Gurney Eagle Weslake and chop 4 cylinders off and overbore it! :lol:

#21 Shockabuku

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 12:21

You may find the following two Pitpass articles to be of interest:

2010 F1 team selection: the cat is out of the bag
http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=38333

FIA and Cosworth: the plot thickens
http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=38350

The second article mentions the possibility of Cosworth providing the electronics (apart from sensors and actuators) too. I thought the FIA had stipulated that the (McLaren sourced) FIA ECU was mandatory for all teams?

#22 mattorgen

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 13:36

The second article mentions the possibility of Cosworth providing the electronics (apart from sensors and actuators) too. I thought the FIA had stipulated that the (McLaren sourced) FIA ECU was mandatory for all teams?


Is the electronics package the same as the ECU? Some of the teams are stilll supported by Magnetti Marelli so presumaby they are supplying them with electronics over and above the McLaren MES ECU.

#23 lewisdg

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 13:50

Cosworth in and before 2006 used an in-house system called Pi to manage the engine and sensors at Williams

#24 Dragonfly

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 15:03

AFAIK some of the sensors must be FIA homologated ones.

#25 mattorgen

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 15:06

AFAIK some of the sensors must be FIA homologated ones.

Which could explain why Cosworth isn't supplying them maybe?

#26 F1 Fan 6785

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 20:16

Is the electronics package the same as the ECU? Some of the teams are stilll supported by Magnetti Marelli so presumaby they are supplying them with electronics over and above the McLaren MES ECU.

Yes they have their own electronics, this is how I understand it works teams have their own electronics which work with the McLaren control ECU.

#27 wingwalker

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 21:37

With current restrictions I don't think Cosworth will have any problems with making a competitive F1 engine. Their 2006 (sucky) engine is a starting point and they actually have a serious field to gain advantage on: mileage. New teams have a luxury of designing the engine knowing it's fuel usage is going to be a factor, current F1 teams are basically stuck with what they've designed 3 years ago when looking after mileage wasn't high on priority list.

#28 Clatter

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:15

Cosworth being used like no other F1 engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-19818009

#29 F1ultimate

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 14:21

Cosworth being used like no other F1 engine.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-19818009


It that a teaser of Cosworth's 2014 engine :eek:

#30 Garagiste

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 20:46

Wondered if that was why this thread had resurfaced, made me smile earlier: "Nah mate, that's just the fuel pump!"

#31 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 21:46

Could hear it from my house!

#32 Fastcake

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:53

Could hear it from my house!


Where were you out of interest? My girlfriend was on the north coast and said she could hear it quite clearly, I'm intrigued just how far the noise travelled. It's really fascinating following this project, quite amazing how a formula one engine is needed just to power the fuel pump!