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#1 H2H

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 19:46


What an exciting GP that was in Hungary - minus the sad incident of Felipe.

What are your thoughts about the GP in Valencia?


Personally I was surprised just how quick McLaren Mercedes was, even if I think that RBR still had the faster car - when the tyres were working. The long straight, the slow and narrow track full of slow corners and the temperature seemed to suite McLaren with KERS a lot, while those conditions should have been almost the worst possible combination for the RB5. But what great tyre conservation by the McLaren! Ferrari surprised too, even less so than McLaren. Once again the type of track seemed to suite Ferrari very well, with KERS allowing a rocket start from the clean side, just look at the first corner in Hungary! Brawn suffered a lot oversteering and had great difficulties to handle the tyres, especially with a lot of fuel. Still their aerodynamic package might still be a (small) step ahead of the two KERS teams. Williams was also strong in Hungary and could have perhaps overtaken Webber at the pits with a longer second stint. Toyota handled the strategy well, but was perhaps not as strong as Williams.

Valencia should get hot. It is less dirty, faster and broader track. But how will the track suit the teams above and their possibles updates? How does the different straight influence the start? A lot of questions there...

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#2 Clatter

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 19:53

What an exciting GP that was in Hungary - minus the sad incident of Felipe.

What are your thoughts about the GP in Valencia?


Personally I was surprised just how quick McLaren Mercedes was, even if I think that RBR still had the faster car - when the tyres were working. The long straight, the slow and narrow track full of slow corners and the temperature seemed to suite McLaren with KERS a lot, while those conditions should have been almost the worst possible combination for the RB5. But what great tyre conservation by the McLaren! Ferrari surprised too, even less so than McLaren. Once again the type of track seemed to suite Ferrari very well, with KERS allowing a rocket start from the clean side, just look at the first corner in Hungary! Brawn suffered a lot oversteering and had great difficulties to handle the tyres, especially with a lot of fuel. Still their aerodynamic package might still be a (small) step ahead of the two KERS teams. Williams was also strong in Hungary and could have perhaps overtaken Webber at the pits with a longer second stint. Toyota handled the strategy well, but was perhaps not as strong as Williams.

Valencia should get hot. It is less dirty, faster and broader track. But how will the track suit the teams above and their possibles updates? How does the different straight influence the start? A lot of questions there...


After last year this is the race I have been looking forward to the least. I'm expecting a total borefest.

#3 craftverk

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 19:57

while those conditions should have been almost the worst possible combination for the RB5.

isn't it the exact opposite?



#4 Turn 1

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:01

After last year this is the race I have been looking forward to the least. I'm expecting a total borefest.



I completely disagree, theres no reason why valencia will be any more a borefest than bahrain, spain, monaco, turkey or hungary have been this year. I find it unbelievable that last year everybody wrote off the valencia race and praised the singapore circuit as been a great circuit. IMO valencia has far more potential for overtaking than singapore, singapore would have been worse than valencia if it wasn't for piquets crash.

Edited by Turn 1, 26 July 2009 - 20:03.


#5 Clatter

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:05

I completely disagree, theres no reason why valencia will be any more a borefest than bahrain, spain, monaco, turkey or hungary have been this year. I find it unbelievable that last year everybody wrote off the valencia race and praised the singapore circuit as been a great circuit. IMO valencia has far more potential for overtaking than singapore, singapore would have been worse than valencia if it wasn't for piquets crash.


I wasnt impressed with Singapore either, but Valencia was far far worse.

#6 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:07

This will be another snoozer but I expect a similar result to thy Budapest

#7 peroa

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:12

I wasnt impressed with Singapore either, but Valencia was far far worse.


Yep, Valencia with its white walls around the track and a seemingly confusing track layout (meaning that every corner/chicane looks almost the same as the previous/next one) IS the worst F1 track - I dare say - in modern F1 history.

Lacks excitement, uniqueness, charisma, overtaking opportunities etc.

Edited by peroa, 26 July 2009 - 20:14.


#8 scheivlak

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:12

I completely disagree, theres no reason why valencia will be any more a borefest than bahrain, spain, monaco, turkey or hungary have been this year. I find it unbelievable that last year everybody wrote off the valencia race and praised the singapore circuit as been a great circuit. IMO valencia has far more potential for overtaking than singapore, singapore would have been worse than valencia if it wasn't for piquets crash.

If you think everybody praised the Singapore circuit you're simply wrong. A lot of people here liked the atmosphere but were rather critical of the circuit itself IIRC.
If Valencia has far more potential for overtaking why didn't we see -AFAIK- one single overtaking action in the entire race last year! Almost unique.
While there was overtaking in Singapore before Piquet enlivened the action BTW.


#9 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:16

The only good part of the Valencia is the last sector. There are a couple other high speed points but they're followed by slow corners which didnt fulfil their purpose and provide us with any overtaking last year. Im expecting Lewis to be strong again and definitely be on the podium. Not too sure on Brawn - im a bit confused by them these last couple races. Surely their problems cant all be down to tyres? Ferrari (or just Kimi?) should be comfortably in the points although i wouldnt expect a repeat of Hungary. Its not the longest of runs down to the 1st corner either and by the time the cars get to a long straight i reckon they'll be too far spread out for KERS cars to gain many places.

#10 Turn 1

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:31

If you think everybody praised the Singapore circuit you're simply wrong. A lot of people here liked the atmosphere but were rather critical of the circuit itself IIRC.
If Valencia has far more potential for overtaking why didn't we see -AFAIK- one single overtaking action in the entire race last year! Almost unique.
While there was overtaking in Singapore before Piquet enlivened the action BTW.



It's not fair to judge a circuits overtaking potentials by judging last years races. F1 could race at 'the best overtaking track in the world' but if the grid lines up in order of race pace, there isn't going to be overtaking. If you look at the two circuits on paper, IMO valencia has far better overtaking opportunities than singapore.

#11 Clatter

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:37

It's not fair to judge a circuits overtaking potentials by judging last years races. F1 could race at 'the best overtaking track in the world' but if the grid lines up in order of race pace, there isn't going to be overtaking. If you look at the two circuits on paper, IMO valencia has far better overtaking opportunities than singapore.


Well they have this years race to prove it's a decent track, for now we can only judge on the event that happened.

#12 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 08:52

williams on valencia:

Do you expect the FW31 to be competitive at Valencia?
Yes. Our performance was reasonable at Valencia last year because it's a street circuit. With the
improvements we’ve made this year, we expect to be competitive again. However, it's an ideal circuit
for KERS
.



#13 D.M.N.

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 08:55

I'd disagree with Williams' assertion about KERS seeing as there aren't any actual straights that are "straight".

#14 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:00

I'd disagree with Williams' assertion about KERS seeing as there aren't any actual straights that are "straight".


that quote seemed strange to me as well, I think he is referring to the stop and go nature of the circuit?

#15 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:05

Button:

“At the next race in Valencia, KERS is reasonably important, but the big KERS circuits will be Spa and Monza. I feel they are going to destroy us on those two circuits — which is maybe a good thing!”
Webber, though, does not believe that the KERS cars will dominate the rest of the season.



#16 sldsmkd

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:06

It's probably to do with there being no overtaking possibilities, so whoever has a Kers button at the start wins.

#17 LukeM

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:13

im surprised Button said that Spa would be a KERS circuit. It is fast and flowing with no stop and go corners.

#18 MinT

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:14

I expect a boring race on a very bland circuit - probable Hamilton win. Brawn doing better.

#19 mountford

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 09:22

I do know that McLaren-Mercedes are bring an update to Valenthia.

I don't know how big it will be, mind.

I think Quick Nick said BMW are bringing a big update here or in Singapore.

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#20 PNSD

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:08

im surprised Button said that Spa would be a KERS circuit. It is fast and flowing with no stop and go corners.


Let me paint a little picture in your head...

At the start Vettel leads coming out of Turn1 upto Eau Rouge. Kimi gets a good exit and stays with him through Eau Rouge and Radillon. Once behind Kimi presses his little magic button and as easy as pie he has Vettel into Les Combes.

If not that then imagine the run down to the bus-stop or even the exit of turn1 and the short run to Eau Rouge? It has at least 3/4 heavy braking areas to charge KERS and on top of that about 3 good areas to use it.

#21 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:20

Damn KERS then! What a wasteful invention it has been! The guy who said that current F1 drivers are simply 'button pushers' sure hit the nail on the head! Ya Valencia will be a borefest I fear.

Edited by Henrytheeigth, 28 July 2009 - 10:36.


#22 rodlamas

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:39

Q. Do you expect the FW31 to be competitive at Valencia?

Sam Michael (Williams): Yes. Our performance was reasonable at Valencia last year because it's a street circuit. With the improvements we've made this year, we expect to be competitive again. However, it's an ideal circuit for KERS.

#23 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:46

Let me paint a little picture in your head...

At the start Vettel leads coming out of Turn1 upto Eau Rouge. Kimi gets a good exit and stays with him through Eau Rouge and Radillon. Once behind Kimi presses his little magic button and as easy as pie he has Vettel into Les Combes.

If not that then imagine the run down to the bus-stop or even the exit of turn1 and the short run to Eau Rouge? It has at least 3/4 heavy braking areas to charge KERS and on top of that about 3 good areas to use it.


The answer is simple then, Vettel tells Adrian to install KERS. :clap: IMO you ncannot have the Brawn and Red Bull drivers complaining about KERS, now Ferrari and Mclaren have gotten over the intial KERS handling handicap and have gotten their cars to work. Early in the season the non-KERS cars had a major advantage and every KERS equiped car suffered. All the teams have access to KERS. IMO the whining about KERS from Vettel & Co must stop.

#24 blackonyx4

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:51

At the start Vettel leads coming out of Turn1 upto Eau Rouge. Kimi gets a good exit and stays with him through Eau Rouge and Radillon. Once behind Kimi presses his little magic button and as easy as pie he has Vettel into Les Combes.

If not that then imagine the run down to the bus-stop or even the exit of turn1 and the short run to Eau Rouge? It has at least 3/4 heavy braking areas to charge KERS and on top of that about 3 good areas to use it.



Biggest benefit of KERS is at acceleration, so you wont pass people on the straight after Eau Rouge when they are already at their top speed. The best opportunity for overtaking at Spa will be the start/finish straight and the run down to Eau Rouge.


#25 noikeee

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:13

I'd disagree with Williams' assertion about KERS seeing as there aren't any actual straights that are "straight".


Er, what? KERS is perfect for tracks that have long full acceleration zones, as it gives them more horsepower. What does the fact the straights aren't 100%-laser-straight have anything to do with it?

Actually looking at the calendar, the only upcoming track that isn't any good for KERS is Singapore. Spa and Interlagos have long uphill straights, where HP is a little more critical, I believe (hence why KERS would have worked so well in the Hungaroring, the turn 3 uphill into t4). Monza and Fuji have monster size straights. Abu Dhabi has a long one too I think?

The thing I'm not so sure of is if KERS is more of a penalty in high-speed or in low-speed corners (due to making the car less balanced as the ballast is in the wrong place). I'm thinking high-speed corners as that's where the cars really become dependent on downforce. If so, extra points for KERS in Valencia, because the only quick corners there are the final 2 quick kinks before the last corner. The rest is pretty much all 2nd gear stuff.

Edited by paranoik0, 28 July 2009 - 11:13.


#26 noikeee

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:16

Biggest benefit of KERS is at acceleration, so you wont pass people on the straight after Eau Rouge when they are already at their top speed. The best opportunity for overtaking at Spa will be the start/finish straight and the run down to Eau Rouge.


The start at Monza is what's going to be fun, I can see KERS cars gaining 6 or 7 places from the start into the 2nd chicane.

#27 noikeee

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:23

Sorry for the triple post but I need to correct myself: there's no GP at Fuji this year, it's at Suzuka. Not sure KERS will be as important there, although it will help them out of the Spoon turn.

#28 Seanspeed

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:31

I completely disagree, theres no reason why valencia will be any more a borefest than bahrain, spain, monaco, turkey or hungary have been this year. I find it unbelievable that last year everybody wrote off the valencia race and praised the singapore circuit as been a great circuit. IMO valencia has far more potential for overtaking than singapore, singapore would have been worse than valencia if it wasn't for piquets crash.

I agree. Valencia is dumped on because there was a lot of hype and that one race didn't live up to it. Also, they could've done a better job sprucing up the scenery with some advertising posters on the walls or something. It did look a bit dull. But there's definitely overtaking spots.

How will the race go this time out? Who knows? It could be great, it could be boring again, which is the same for pretty much any track. All depends on how qualifying turns out, and if anything crazy happens in the race, or if it rains.

As far as how the teams will go, I'm not too sure. Its a lot of medium speed corners with some decent length straights connecting them, a lot of hard braking zones, and only one really fast section. Who does that suit? I dunno. I think the KERS cars of Mclaren and Ferrari should do well because of the many places to use KERS. Mclaren of course, also because of their up-turn in form. Brawn did have a good overall chassis and I'd expect them to do well, but then again, I expected the same at Hungary, and that didn't happen. And while Red Bull will probably be up there, I'm not sure they'll have the best car, just like they didn't at Hungary.

We'll see. I'm actually looking forward to the race, as I do pretty much any race.

Edited by Seanspeed, 28 July 2009 - 11:33.


#29 PNSD

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:31

Biggest benefit of KERS is at acceleration, so you wont pass people on the straight after Eau Rouge when they are already at their top speed. The best opportunity for overtaking at Spa will be the start/finish straight and the run down to Eau Rouge.


I disagree with you here.

When a car approaches its top speep it is the speed limited by drag and engine power.

KERS is independant of engine power, it does not matter what the engine is doing, KERS is totally independant.

When a car starts to approach that top speed and the engine revs are nearning limit KERS will still give the 80hp boost at the wheels no matter what. It is a massive gain in both acceleration (where the KERS helps overcome the increasing drag effect) and also when nearning top speed.

#30 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:52

I disagree with you here.

When a car approaches its top speep it is the speed limited by drag and engine power.

KERS is independant of engine power, it does not matter what the engine is doing, KERS is totally independant.

When a car starts to approach that top speed and the engine revs are nearning limit KERS will still give the 80hp boost at the wheels no matter what. It is a massive gain in both acceleration (where the KERS helps overcome the increasing drag effect) and also when nearning top speed.


we've heard some drivers complain about the rev limiter at top speed. basicly it limits the top speed, kers or no kers. maybe they could install some longer gears, but that will affect acceleration. In my opinion kers is best used from 100 to 250 kmh.

#31 Victor_RO

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:03

I think it will once again suit the McLaren, but Red Bull will give them a much better run for their money. I wouldn't expect this race to be won with more than 6-7 seconds of lead. As for a prediction for the win, I'll say back-to-back wins for Lewis, with the Red Bulls filling the rest of the podium, once again with Webber ahead of Vettel.

#32 Go_Go

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:56

IMO the main KERS question is where to charge it?;)

#33 hunnylander

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 13:42

IMO the main KERS question is where to charge it?;)


Under braking. (It's just a couple of seconds in the McLaren's case, to fully charge.)

Valencia technical preview:

Brakes
The circuit is expected to be particularly demanding on the brakes and on a par with somewhere like Bahrain. There are frequent large stops from over 300kph, such as turns 12 and 17, leading into tight second gear corners which will put high energy though the braking systems. Brake cooling will also need special attention with teams likely to use reasonably large cooling ducts.

#34 PNSD

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 14:21

we've heard some drivers complain about the rev limiter at top speed. basicly it limits the top speed, kers or no kers. maybe they could install some longer gears, but that will affect acceleration. In my opinion kers is best used from 100 to 250 kmh.


KERS is independent of the engine though. When you use KERS you are not increasing the engine revs, the engine power is not rising. I believe whether you are on the limiter or not KERS will provide an increase in power, however it is not through the engine.

#35 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 15:28

KERS is independent of the engine though. When you use KERS you are not increasing the engine revs, the engine power is not rising. I believe whether you are on the limiter or not KERS will provide an increase in power, however it is not through the engine.


You mean they use some sort of epicyclic gearing? otherwise when you increase speed you increase engine speed

#36 Clatter

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 15:34

The answer is simple then, Vettel tells Adrian to install KERS. :clap: IMO you ncannot have the Brawn and Red Bull drivers complaining about KERS, now Ferrari and Mclaren have gotten over the intial KERS handling handicap and have gotten their cars to work. Early in the season the non-KERS cars had a major advantage and every KERS equiped car suffered. All the teams have access to KERS. IMO the whining about KERS from Vettel & Co must stop.


Bugger all to do with KERS though. Those cars were simply bad and it has taken them several races to get them sorted.

#37 FPV GTHO

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 16:27

KERS is independent of the engine though. When you use KERS you are not increasing the engine revs, the engine power is not rising. I believe whether you are on the limiter or not KERS will provide an increase in power, however it is not through the engine.


Most teams have the motor/generator attached to the front of the engine though, so it can still only make the car faster rpm/gearing permitting.

#38 as65p

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 16:44

Actually looking at the calendar, the only upcoming track that isn't any good for KERS is Singapore. Spa and Interlagos have long uphill straights, where HP is a little more critical, I believe (hence why KERS would have worked so well in the Hungaroring, the turn 3 uphill into t4). Monza and Fuji have monster size straights.


Monza will be especially interesting. Brawn and RB should probably still have an edge through Parabolica, aerodynamically, so in theory higher exit speed / earlier on the power. But then after a few metres McLaren / Ferrari KERS will come to the fore. Looking forward to that new "Line comparison" feature on that part of the circuit.

#39 PNSD

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 16:49

You mean they use some sort of epicyclic gearing? otherwise when you increase speed you increase engine speed


I doubt they would use such a system in an F1 car.

I know the KERS goes through the gearbox and is connected to the diff via a CVT. Though I am not sure, I know the flybrid KERS systems as such made by Xtrac use a small epicyclic gearing system, but to reduce to flywheel speed to the CVT or something!

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#40 Atreiu

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 17:43

It's gonna be very tight.

Alonso will be on pole again if Renault race.

Vettel will do well.

Button won't win unless some two chips or more fall his way.

:p

My guesses are as good as any.

#41 DEVO

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 17:47

Well if the bridge would move to it's open/close position randomly through the race, it would make the race a little more interesting.

#42 pingu666

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 18:50

you gain the most laptime from using kers around 3rd/4th gear i think, overtaking then you just keep using it up for that one move..

#43 BullHead

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 19:06

I thought Quali last year was pretty exciting. Although a very clean weekend for most, the on board shots were pretty hairraising, esp that approach to the pit entry point.
The race was something of a let down, but IMO unexpectedly so. This year, another chance for some dicey action - I've got that feeling this circuit can provide... here's hoping :)
Nice to look at too

#44 D.M.N.

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 19:03

I think I'll wait until after Friday practice till I predict anything. At least I'll have something to smile about, even if it is a borefest. ;)

#45 ashnathan

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 19:51

The mclarens will be hugely quick in valencia, and i also think the Ferrari's will be too, but, dare i say it, i think the mclarens will be the team to beat in valencia, and when i say mclarens i mean lewis.

#46 BullHead

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 22:08

And now Schumi in the equation...

Everyone will be watching Valencia, a key race of 2009

#47 BRK

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 22:16

I could swim across the sea to get to Spain,that's how crazy it is.

#48 mkay

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 22:17

Is the track layout different from last year? Did they make changes like Singapore is doing?

Edited by mkay, 29 July 2009 - 22:17.


#49 BullHead

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 23:23

I beleive they have made some minor adjustments ala singapore, don't know what though.

#50 Clatter

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 23:44

I beleive they have made some minor adjustments ala singapore, don't know what though.


Maybe they have ground down that "huge" bump at the bridge that everyone was so concerned about.

Edited by Clatter, 29 July 2009 - 23:53.