Can it be that certain AS that is considered by some the greatest of all times, wasnt really that fast?
How come that he drove FL each 8.47 races, its virtually less than twice per season. hmmm.
Edited by brabhamBT19, 29 July 2009 - 07:28.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:27
Edited by brabhamBT19, 29 July 2009 - 07:28.
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Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:31
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:32
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:33
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:35
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:36
He only went as fast as he had to?
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:37
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:40
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:45
Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:46
Edited by pRy, 29 July 2009 - 07:46.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:17
Yeah.. having seen some fastest laps set by drivers who have had horrible races and for some reason wake up and set a fastest lap at the end, I'm not sure how important race fastest laps are. They certainly aren't always an indication of success in the race. Success over oen lap? yes.. success over an entire race, no.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:23
The discrepancy between his poles(65), wins(41) and Fastest laps(19) is more than obvious.
Can it be that certain AS that is considered by some the greatest of all times, wasnt really that fast?
How come that he drove FL each 8.47 races, its virtually less than twice per season. hmmm.
Edited by vivian, 29 July 2009 - 08:25.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:32
Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:35
..... he was absolutely......
Posted 29 July 2009 - 08:41
and positively?
Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:15
Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:23
Fastest laps generally tell a tail but not always. In some cases where a driver is often dominant in a race he will not set fastest lap because he is cruising in the last part of the race when track conditions are fastest, especially in Senna's era of no refueling. It has more value today though and Kimi getting 10 fastest laps last year was not irrelevant. It was a strong evidence of the ferrari being the fastest car on race day in 2008.
Edited by TinyJim, 29 July 2009 - 10:24.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:29
At some point in each race every driver will have driven on low fuel and the same tyres, unless they dnf early so fastest lap has value as its basically an extended qualifying session.I would say even less relevance today as we have to consider fuel loads, tyre compound, engine usage, gearbox usage etc...
Posted 29 July 2009 - 10:33
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:00
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:03
Edited by Celloman, 29 July 2009 - 11:03.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:10
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:23
Prost has far more fastest laps, and drove in the same era.
Edited by WDC, 29 July 2009 - 11:23.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:33
At some point in each race every driver will have driven on low fuel and the same tyres, unless they dnf early so fastest lap has value as its basically an extended qualifying session.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 11:38
Of course he has. Refueling was not allowed. By the time the fuel tanks were almost empty (towards the end of the race...) Senna was already, generally, half a minute ahead. Senna would usually open up a big gap in the early stages when the cars were heavy. I hope this helps the bright guy that started this thread understand why Senna hasn't as many FL... I recommend downloading the entire 88/89 seasons and stop talking nonsense.Prost has far more fastest laps, and drove in the same era.
Edited by the9th, 29 July 2009 - 11:45.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:01
Edited by the9th, 29 July 2009 - 12:01.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:30
Prost has far more fastest laps, and drove in the same era.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:32
Fernando Alonso: wins 21, podiums 52, poles 18, fastest laps 12
How come that he drove FL each 11.08 races, its virtually less than twice per season. hmmm.
Edited by brabhamBT19, 29 July 2009 - 12:34.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:46
Posted 29 July 2009 - 13:05
Posted 29 July 2009 - 13:32
Edited by Flyhigh, 29 July 2009 - 13:36.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:09
Maybe you have to take in consideration the fact that Prost had a career duration of 13 full seasons. While Senna only raced 9 full seasons and 3 races.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:25
Fernando Alonso: wins 21, podiums 52, poles 18, fastest laps 12
How come that he drove FL each 11.08 races, its virtually less than twice per season. hmmm.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:25
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:27
No not really. Different cars have different wear rates, engine mapping etc... Also the track evolved constantly through the Grand Prix.
Fastest laps really don't mean an awful lot. If you look at the Nurb GP we see Alonso was significantly quicker than anyone, and I am about 99% sure that isn't a true representation of Renault/Alonso's pace.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:28
You are picking exceptions. There is an exception to every rule.in the last two races, Alonso had fastest lap in Germany.... Red Bull was class of the field
Webber had fastest lap in Hungary....Hamilton's Mclaren was class of the field
and so on
Fastest lap doesnt mean anything....
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:38
Alonso has one of the lowest ratios of fastest laps to race wins in history even taking into account this era of refueling which boots fastest laps. I looked over the data a while back and saw that its very rare to have less fastest laps than race wins let alone Alonso's ratio, which indicates hes rarely had the out right fastest car in his career.
Kimi for example driving in the same era, has 35 fastest laps for 17 wins. Basically opposite Alonso's.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:48
Maybe you have to take in consideration the fact that Prost had a career duration of 13 full seasons. While Senna only raced 9 full seasons and 3 races. He was cut short when he was on his prime and in the best team. Imagine what Senna stats may look like, had he retire in 1997 still relatively young at (37) for Williams, remembering that they had very competitive cars these years and were champions with Hill and Villenueve.
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Posted 29 July 2009 - 14:56
Edited by Ricardo F1, 29 July 2009 - 14:56.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:03
Kinda hard to keep winning when your dead!and more wins, if I may add
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:03
With half as many championships and 20% fewer wins, despite being far more consistently in a race winning car...
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:12
BS personifiedWith half as many championships and 20% fewer wins, despite being far more consistently in a race winning car...
Edited by grunge, 29 July 2009 - 15:15.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:15
Both of Alonso's championships came when he was allowed to build up a lead early on, while other teams got their sh*t together.
Kimi (05) and MS (06) both had to push their cars to the maximum while the spaniard simply cruised and collected. That is a strong reason why he has less FLs than them.
Alonso was exposed in 2007. He wasn't the same driver without that early lead....or a rubbish teammate ;)
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:19
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:26
...and by the way, in Senna's era everyone qualified on fumes; so don't fuel-correct , tire-correct, engine-correct, track-correct or do any of those strange things you do nowadays.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:27
Senna was known to gun for pole positions, which shows in his statistics. From there he would have an easier ride and no need to set fastest laps to win. Alternatively that his car wasn't 100% optimised for longer stints being setup more biased on Q. But he was fast allright, find some onboards on youtube and let yourself be impressed.
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:43
Senna was most of the time in lead ..
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:48
Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:49
He seemed to beat Prost an awful lot (and Prost was a GREAT driver) for someone who didn't put much emphasis on Sunday.Hmm most wins also have most Poles, and most fastest laps.
Senna was one of the greatest drivers ever in F1, he was however not perfect. On a qualifying lap, he was arguably the best ever however he did achieve that to the detriment of his race pace. Alain Prost had less Poles, but spend his practice sessions to optimize the race setup while Senna spend his optimizing his qualifying setup.
The argument about the easier ride does not really hold, and revisionism to glorify and make a driver better than he was makes little sense. I am not saying that Senna was not great, he was indeed a great driver at most I think the world have seen 5 other drivers as talented as him.
But he put too much into getting Pole, and not enough in having the best possible car for racing on Sunday.