907 replies to this topic

[sreevishnu]

well the rules clearly said 8 engines PER driver

so could Schumy use new 8 Engines for the rest of 7 races???

is that a possibility

and what about testing, he can do testing as the rookie testing rule still stands
a driver not done more that 4 test days in the past 24 months can be considered as rookie and allowed to test 4 test days?

will ferrari be testing in the coming weekends ?

[peroa]

No, no and no.

[Keith68]

It would stink of favourtism if he was allowed any special treatment. I think (and hope) not.

[Majarvis]

No, no and no.

You know that for a fact or you just think that?

[FonzCam]

well the rules clearly said 8 engines PER driver

so could Schumy use new 8 Engines for the rest of 7 races???

is that a possibility

and what about testing, he can do testing as the rookie testing rule still stands
a driver not done more that 4 test days in the past 24 months can be considered as rookie and allowed to test 4 test days?

will ferrari be testing in the coming weekends ?

The 8 engine rule was cleared up last race when Jaime Alguersuari inherited Bourdais' engine allowance.

And there's no way they'll let him test he'll just be training hard and on the simulator learning the new track.

[sreevishnu]

It would stink of favourtism if he was allowed any special treatment. I think (and hope) not.

i was not talking about special treatment.

The rules say 8 engines PER driver > so now Massa is gone for rest of season MS will be a new driver and could he get 8 new engines?

and the next rule for Rookie testing ..... any driver who have done less that 4 days of testing in F1 car for the past 24 months can be used for the same. ...... so MS last tested in 2007 june and not tested for 24 months..... so can he be considered in that group

there is no favouritism here mate, dont start it again.....the guy has just been appointed again....there is plenty of time to belittle him later in the season

Edited by sreevishnu, 29 July 2009 - 17:29.

[Fudce]

The engines are linked to car number, not driver. Jaime Alguersuari has Sébastien Bourdais's engines, and Michael Schumacher will have Felipe Massa's supply. Otherwise, teams could just run a third driver on a friday with their engines maxed, no care at all about engine milage, penalties, or whatsoever.

As for testing, each team have a set number of straight line tests per season, so they can use them to get him at least in part reaccustomed to the car ahead of Valencia, but no circuit testing mid-season.

Also remember that there is the two week holiday that the teams must take in the four week gap.

Edited by Fudce, 29 July 2009 - 17:28.

[wewantourdarbyback]

i was not talking about special treatment.

The rules say 8 engines PER driver > so now Massa is gone for rest of season MS will be a new driver and could he get 8 new engines?

and the next rule for Rookie testing ..... any driver who have done less that 4 days of testing in F1 car for the past 24 months can be used for the same. ...... so MS last tested in 2007 june and not tested for 24 months..... so can he be considered in that group

there is no favouritism here mate, dont start it again.....the guy has just been appointed again....there is plenty of time to belittle him

It has been answered in the post above this.

[FlatOverCrest]

And there's no way they'll let him test he'll just be training hard and on the simulator learning the new track.

Nope.....I dont agree.

He will probably be in last years car with slicks on and a 2009 aero package. How?.... If need be, he could "buy" (read free) this car from last year and hire Fiorano and run as many laps as he likes as a privately owned car on a private test session.

It's no different to anyone who owns an Ex-F1 car in the Formula Boss type of series.

Schumi WILL DEFINITELY be back in an F1 car in the next few weeks, he just wont be in an F60.....

They will check with the FIA and I am sure, this will be approved...

[peroa]

You know that for a fact or you just think that?

[Demo.]

The 8 engine rule was cleared up last race when Jaime Alguersuari inherited Bourdais' engine allowance.

And there's no way they'll let him test he'll just be training hard and on the simulator learning the new track.

Hows about learning the new car dont forget when he last raced they had traction control and lots of other driver aids that are now no longer allowed on cars, and lets not even start on the tyres areo etc.
But then all this will be done in the simulator just like JA had to do.
Heck he will have a tough enough time just remembering all the new buttons on the steering wheel.
and with the maditory 2 weeks off for all teams his time is down to just 2 weeks of real work with the team before his first comeback race.

@ Flatovercrest dont you think TR would have done the same with JA if that was allowed?
If ferrari are allowed to do this it would make a mokery of the no testing rules after all what would stop any F1 driver buying for free an F1 car identical to their present one and taking it out on the track as a privateer?

Edited by Demo., 29 July 2009 - 17:38.

[Scotracer]

Wont it be 8 engines per car? I.e. car #3?

[Clatter]

You know that for a fact or you just think that?

Yes they are all facts. You can check the rule book for yourself to get the answers.

Edited by Clatter, 29 July 2009 - 17:31.

[sreevishnu]

It has been answered in the post above this.

yeah i saw it, after i posted mine

i dont agree with the testing bit, i am sure he can test as the Rookie Testing Rule will allow him to do it

who knows what will happen

[peroa]

Nope.....I dont agree.

He will probably be in last years car with slicks on and a 2009 aero package. How?.... If need be, he could "buy" (read free) this car from last year and hire Fiorano and run as many laps as he likes as a privately owned car on a private test session.

It's no different to anyone who owns an Ex-F1 car in the Formula Boss type of series.

Schumi WILL DEFINITELY be back in an F1 car in the next few weeks, he just wont be in an F60.....

They will check with the FIA and I am sure, this will be approved...

I really don't think so, no. Ask Jaime.
People here need to get real ...

Edited by peroa, 29 July 2009 - 17:32.

[peroa]

yeah i saw it, after i posted mine

i dont agree with the testing bit, i am sure he can test as the Rookie Testing Rule will allow him to do it

who knows what will happen

There is absolutely NO in-season testing apart from a few straightline tests.
None, zip, zero, nada.

[FlatOverCrest]

There is absolutely NO in-season testing apart from a few straightline tests.
None, zip, zero, nada.

Sorry Peroa but you are factually incorrect.

If somene purchases an "ex-F1" car they can run it whenever and however they like. Drivers currently running in the F1 championship are not precluded from driving any other race cars, hence why Bordais could do Le Mans.

So yes, if he wanted to, he could buy and run his own car for as many days as he likes. The rule is related to THIS seasons car.

Go check the rules if you doubt further.

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 29 July 2009 - 17:38.

[peroa]

And he will do it with what? Fulda tyres?

He ain't getting no competition tyres and i think it would be a really bad idea to piss off the other teams.

Please, no more of this nonsense ...

[Flexa]

"Michael is allowed to drive the F2008 to get back up to speed, and then drive the F60 on the friday. That's from James Allen. "

[Viktor]

Nope.....I dont agree.

He will probably be in last years car with slicks on and a 2009 aero package. How?.... If need be, he could "buy" (read free) this car from last year and hire Fiorano and run as many laps as he likes as a privately owned car on a private test session.

It's no different to anyone who owns an Ex-F1 car in the Formula Boss type of series.

Schumi WILL DEFINITELY be back in an F1 car in the next few weeks, he just wont be in an F60.....

They will check with the FIA and I am sure, this will be approved...

If Jaime can get within 2 seconds of the fastest drivers/cars in F1 with no F1 experience I would expect a 7 times world champion with 15 years of experience of F1 to be able to handle it with no testing. No need for controversy.

/Viktor

[highdownforce]

well the rules clearly said 8 engines PER driver

so could Schumy use new 8 Engines for the rest of 7 races???

is that a possibility

F1 Sporting Regulations:

28.4 a) Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used.
An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.
c) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine prior to it being used for the first time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced.

and what about testing, he can do testing as the rookie testing rule still stands
a driver not done more that 4 test days in the past 24 months can be considered as rookie and allowed to test 4 test days?

will ferrari be testing in the coming weekends ?

F1 Sporting Regulations:

22) TRACK AND WIND TUNNEL TESTING
22.1 a) Track testing shall be considered any track running time undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship with the exception of :
i) promotional or demonstration events carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier ;
ii) three one day young driver training tests carried out between the end of the last Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year, any such driver having not competed in more than two F1 World Championship Events ;
iii) eight one day aerodynamic tests carried out on FIA approved straight line or constant radius sites between 1 January 2010 and the end of the last Event of the Championship.

Note this was taken from the 2010 regulations, but as this is not marked in pink, the rules are the same for this year,

[Clatter]

Sorry Peroa but you are factually incorrect.

If somene purchases an "ex-F1" car they can run it whenever and however they like. Drivers currently running in the F1 championship are not precluded from driving any other race cars, hence why Bordais could do Le Mans.

So yes, if he wanted to, he could buy and run his own car for as many days as he likes. The rule is related to THIS seasons car.

Go check the rules if you doubt further.

Can you show me where in the rules it refers to this years car?

[FlatOverCrest]

And he will do it with what? Fulda tyres?
He ain't getting no competition tyres and i think it would be a really bad idea to piss off the other teams.
Please, no more of this nonsense ...

This will come back to haunt you. You dont know what you are talking about. If he does test in a former car, I am going to start a new thread dedicated to you personally.

For your information, the other teams are highly likely to endorse him being able to get some time in, so long as it is not this years car, so that he is safe to himself and the other drivers around him...THEY ALL want the show, and MS brings it.

The rules clearly state, NO TEAM may do testing, but an individual CAN as long as it is not in the current season car.

As I said, if you bothered to go read up on this you might learn something.

[engel]

Engine rules are very clear:

If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.

So no he can't use 8 new engines

Testing is more murky ... in theory no he can't test, but with permission from the other teams he can do a couple of test days on an off spec car

[Clatter]

Testing is more murky ... in theory no he can't test, but with permission from the other teams he can do a couple of test days on an off spec car

Where the hell is that in the rules?

[engel]

Where the hell is that in the rules?

It's not that's why I said it's murky ...

[peroa]

22) TRACK AND WIND TUNNEL TESTING
22.1 a) Track testing shall be considered any track running time undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship with the exception of :
i) promotional or demonstration events carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier ;
ii) three one day young driver training tests carried out between the end of the last Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year, any such driver having not competed in more than two F1 World Championship Events ;
iii) eight one day aerodynamic tests carried out on FIA approved straight line or constant radius sites between 1 January 2009 and the end of the last Event of the Championship.
b) No competitor may carry out more than 15,000km of track testing during a calendar year.
c) No track testing may take place between the start of the week preceding the first Event of the Championship and 31 December of the same year.
d) During all track testing cars must be fitted with the FIA ECU required by Article 8.2 of the 2009 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations.
2009 F1 Sporting Regulations 9 of 42 24 March 2009
e) No track testing is permitted at sites which are not currently approved for use by Formula 1 cars. In order to ensure that venue licence conditions are respected at all times during track testing, competitors are required to inform the FIA of their test schedule in order that an observer may be appointed if deemed necessary.
f) During all Formula One track testing :
- red flag procedures must be respected ;
- no other type of vehicle is permitted on the track ;
- every reasonable effort should be made to ensure that the recommendations concerning emergency services detailed in Article 16 of Appendix H to the Code are followed.
g) If, after an incident during track testing, the Medical Warning Light signals that threshold forces have been exceeded the driver must present himself for examination in the circuit medical centre without delay.
h) No wind tunnel testing may be carried out using a scale model which is greater than 60% of full size.
i) No wind tunnel testing may be carried out at a speed exceeding 50 metres/second

Looks pretty clear to me.

[engel]

Looks pretty clear to me.

is Schumacher running an F2008 mule in Fiorano a competitor?

[FlatOverCrest]

Read:

"22.1 a) Track testing shall be considered any track running time undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship with the exception of;"

Michael Schumacher has not been "Officially" announced yet. WHY do you think they have done this? As the Autosport article confirms, it's to check the condition of his neck, etc.....

;)

Trust me...the team knows EXACTLY what it is doing. As long as MS is not an "OFFICIAL" competitor, the Testing rules do not apply to him.

I am trying to find the part relating to the car, I am not sure it mentions the car specifically but a car fitted with a 2009 spec ECU.

SO YES... While MS is NOT a competitor....he can test on HIS OWN....as much as he likes.

Yes its "Grey".... he simply takes some mates to the track who happen to prep the car for him....run it in plain red, probably a 2008 car with 2009 aero's and slicks. There will be a HUGE pile of used slicks that have plenty of life left in them for him to trawl around Fiorano

[peroa]

Read:

"22.1 a) Track testing shall be considered any track running time undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship with the exception of;"

Michael Schumacher has not been "Officially" announced yet. WHY do you think they have done this? As the Autosport article confirms, it's to check the condition of his neck, etc.....

;)

Trust me...the team knows EXACTLY what it is doing. As long as MS is not an "OFFICIAL" competitor, the Testing rules do not apply to him.

I am trying to find the part relating to the car, I am not sure it mentions the car specifically but a car fitted with a 2009 spec ECU.

SO YES... While MS is NOT a competitor....he can test on HIS OWN....as much as he likes.

Yes its "Grey".... he simply takes some mates to the track who happen to prep the car for him....run it in plain red, probably a 2008 car with 2009 aero's and slicks. There will be a HUGE pile of used slicks that have plenty of life left in them for him to trawl around Fiorano

Competitor here means Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, not the driver.

[FlatOverCrest]

Looks pretty clear to me.

Thanks you just proved what you DONT know...

MS is NOT an official competitor yet......Go read the confirmatin of his return. HE NOT BEEN OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED BY THE TEAM.

THAT looks pretty clear to me. But you feel free to think otherwise.

[peroa]

Competitor here means Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, not the driver.

[engel]

precisely, so in theory Schumacher can buy Ferrari's 2008 mule for $20 and drive it all he wants, so long as it's not Scuderia Ferrari Testing. In practice, Luca will ask the other teams and Max's permission to do it to avoid the ridiculousness.

[FonzCam]

He has already tested the F2008 with 2009 downforce levels and slicks.

Where is he going to get current F1 tyres from? Sure he can get the keys to Fiorano 'buy' an F2008 and hire some guys to come prep it for him during their 2 week holiday but without 2009 spec slicks he'll have to use Avon rubber from EuroBOSS or similar! I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

[FlatOverCrest]

Competitor here means Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, not the driver.

Even that response, shows that a private individual can do what they like....

So your arguement now accepts that the TEAM is restricted.... eventually you will get it.

To quote your own words.....

SILENCE....I kill you!

[Demo.]

Read:

"22.1 a) Track testing shall be considered any track running time undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship with the exception of;"

Michael Schumacher has not been "Officially" announced yet. WHY do you think they have done this? As the Autosport article confirms, it's to check the condition of his neck, etc.....

;)

Trust me...the team knows EXACTLY what it is doing. As long as MS is not an "OFFICIAL" competitor, the Testing rules do not apply to him.

I am trying to find the part relating to the car, I am not sure it mentions the car specifically but a car fitted with a 2009 spec ECU.

SO YES... While MS is NOT a competitor....he can test on HIS OWN....as much as he likes.

MS may not be but sure as hell is hot Ferrari are.
AS has already been said would not TR have done the same with JA if it was allowed.
And would not teh FIA have a clear reason to not grant MS a super licence for this season if he had been driving/testing one of this years cars.
And as has been said no tyres no car

Edited by Demo., 29 July 2009 - 18:08.

[peroa]

precisely, so in theory Schumacher can buy Ferrari's 2008 mule for $20 and drive it all he wants, so long as it's not Scuderia Ferrari Testing. In practice, Luca will ask the other teams and Max's permission to do it to avoid the ridiculousness.

He doesn't have access to any competition tyres.

[Clatter]

It's not that's why I said it's murky ...

It's not murky, it's simply not allowed and won't happen.

[FlatOverCrest]

Where is he going to get current F1 tyres from? Sure he can get the keys to Fiorano 'buy' an F2008 and hire some guys to come prep it for him during their 2 week holiday but without 2009 spec slicks he'll have to use Avon rubber from EuroBOSS or similar! I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

MS's neck is the key problem here. Even on last years rubber, which is preferable to "AVON" slicks or even "new test tyres of a new compund not yet used in F1".....there are so many options he can use, purely to run a bunch of laps to strengthen his neck, which to be honest, is the only thing that needs work.

[Viktor]

MS's neck is the key problem here. Even on last years rubber, which is preferable to "AVON" slicks or even "new test tyres of a new compund not yet used in F1".....there are so many options he can use, purely to run a bunch of laps to strengthen his neck, which to be honest, is the only thing that needs work.

He can do that out of the car also, no need to drive the car for that.

/Viktor

[peroa]

MS's neck is the key problem here. Even on last years rubber, which is preferable to "AVON" slicks or even "new test tyres of a new compund not yet used in F1".....there are so many options he can use, purely to run a bunch of laps to strengthen his neck, which to be honest, is the only thing that needs work.

Riiiiiight ....

[FonzCam]

MS's neck is the key problem here. Even on last years rubber, which is preferable to "AVON" slicks or even "new test tyres of a new compund not yet used in F1".....there are so many options he can use, purely to run a bunch of laps to strengthen his neck, which to be honest, is the only thing that needs work.

For that they can just bolt on a set of A1GP tyres. Hell maybe just get him doing some 'testing' for the A1GP car at first.

[Demo.]

once again as soon as we hear both MS and Ferrari used in the same sentence people are trying to work out ways to break the rules.
Dont forget if he sails too close to the wind the FIA dont have to give him a superlicence and could rule uneligable for this season.
I have no doubts that either Ferrari know what they can and cannot do or they will be asking the FIA.
One thinsg for certain with Ferrari needing all the teams to agree to their barmy ideas within fota the last thing they need to do is piss off other teams who may just decide to get back at them by just saying no instead of yes to something in the concord that ferrari want but they dont.
Or Fonzcam he just does what other drivers do and goes down the gym to work up his neck

Edited by Demo., 29 July 2009 - 18:15.

[peroa]

once again as soon as we hear both MS and Ferrari used in the same sentence people are trying to work out ways to break the rules.

Sad, really. Fans and driver deserve each other it seems.
Will be hard for him to get rid of the "SchummelSchummi" stigma.

[FlatOverCrest]

He can do that out of the car also, no need to drive the car for that.

/Viktor

Yes he can....BUT nothing in training in a GYM, simulates what running in an actual car does to you.

Anyway, continuing to discuss this people who insist on saing "it will never happen" is futile. Belive you me, if Ferrari can get him into a car, they will ge him into a car. Hell, they could even put him into a damn IndyCar to test all he likes to help with his conditioning.

The fact is for the next few weeks MS will be at track in SOMETHING, at the gym, in the simulator and straight line tests in the F60 for the allocated about amount of runs.

The fact that TR could not jet JA any running was a timing issue.

Peroa....if you still dont know anything about MS's accident and his neck muscles..then go TROLL somewhere else.

The G force in an F1 car will basically tire your neck so much after 5 or so laps, that it is hard to lift your head in the helmet. Richard Hammond proved this when he got a few laps in the Renault at Silverstone. ADD the fact that MS had an injury...his NECK is in fact the thing that needs most work.

Try to listen more and learn.

[peroa]

If he wants to train his neck he has 4 weeks of time for this:
http://www.inspirefi...ck-trainer.html



All day/night long, no need for driving ...

Watch and learn, son.

Edited by peroa, 29 July 2009 - 18:26.

[Keith68]

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to give Schumi testing time, there are lots of out of car exercises that can build neck muscles just fine.

If on the other hand he has a physical impariment that makes him a danger to himself or other competitors, then he should have his license revoked. Simple as.

He is due nothing more, nor nothing less than any other replacement driver such as Alguersuari might expect to get.

Edited by Keith68, 29 July 2009 - 18:46.

[FlatOverCrest]

Watch and learn, son.

Unlike you Peroa.....

I have and currently race....therefore you can save your observations about what you THINK I need to learn about race conditioning...

The teams use a corner weight system hung from a Helmet, which the driver simply has to lean his head from front, to back, to left , to right.... and all over again, about 200 times a day....

[EDIT] pointless carrying this on with you, I'll just wait to see if he gets in a car before Valencia, then come looking for you.

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 29 July 2009 - 18:56.

[OfficeLinebacker]

There's no substitute for the real thing, the real thing being driving an F1 car.

If I were Ferrari and Schuey, I'd drive the hell out of a freaking F2008 with the closet legal approximation to today's rubber.

He's not learning how to set up the car, he's not even learning the new car's steering wheel. It's just training. Reflexes, muscles, etc.

It's not some kind of magic thing that will somehow put him at an advantage to the other competitors. At the same time, every little bit helps.

[ashnathan]

Schumacher will probs use Gene's helmet in the straight line test this coming week.