28 replies to this topic

[piperp2]

Can anybody help with these period pictures, what year? does anyone know who the driver is in the 2nd photo?

Edited by piperp2, 29 July 2009 - 21:16.

[Gary C]

Wouldn't 60/61 be a little late for these photos?

[David McKinney]

Are you sure it's as late as 1960/61? There wasn't much 500 racing by then

If the picture of the No.35 car was taken in the same period the unidentified driver would have been a nobody - a car that old wouldn't have been competitive no matter who was driving it

[Gary C]

Blimey David, were you reading my mind ??

[David McKinney]

Other way around - I wrote my first line before you wrote yours. It was only because I did the other bit that you were able to scoop me

[Robin Fairservice]

Sorry, but I cannot see any pictures, nor any captions.

[Gary C]

That's strange. When I first viewed this post there were 3 pictures, now there are only 2 and they are different photos !

[Giraffe]

Well it's not the same bloke who was in car #38 earlier this evening!??

[Ted Walker]

I assume they were taken at Brands ???.500s were active until at least 1960 in the BRSCC,

[Rob29]

I assume they were taken at Brands ???.500s were active until at least 1960 in the BRSCC,

At least 1962 I recall.Not sure what we are discussing here I can only see 2 photos.First is 5 Coopers on the grid at Brands.second #23 & #18 of earlier type I cannnot identify leaving paddock-possibly from a later historic event?

[piperp2]

Sorry about the change in photos, I realised I had some more Formula 500 slides and after scanning and saving them, they corrupted the others for some reason, so I had to start again, I will re-scan and repost the missing ones as soon as possible

[piperp2]

At last I seem to have resolved the problem and this is what the original post should have looked like. I was told the slides were taken in 1960/61 but I do have some slides taken at Brands in 1959 so these could be earlier. The drivers in the last two slides are quite visible, does anyone recognise them?

Edited by piperp2, 30 July 2009 - 08:19.

[HiRich]

Paddock Photos
Whilst I don't recognise the background or picket fences, I'm presuming this is Brands Hatch, and it appears the same event. The shirt sleeves suggest Summer.
Car 23 is the BJR of Brian Rowsell. Brian raced this self-built car from 1956-1961, and used the number 23 on several occasions:
Crystal Palace - 5/07/1958 - (numbers rule this out)
Brands Hatch - 10/05/1959 - (no 35 listed as an entrant)
Brands Hatch - 12/07/1959
Brands Hatch - 2/07/1961 - (other numbers don't appear)
Of these, July 1959 makes the best fit. All four cars (4, 18, 23 & 35) appeared in the Final of the BRSCC Championship Race. That would make them:
4 - The Cooper Norton of RH Butterworth
18 - The Beart-Cooper Norton of Jack Pitcher
35 - The Cooper Norton of "Alan" Plumstead
I have no other references for Butterworth.
18 is obviously not the "real" Beart car, however there are signs of a Mk XI Cooper (which this is) also bearing that name, and run for some years by Jack and Lea's Garage. But I've no other images to compare against.
The Plumstead(s) cause me bother. The references list an Alan, Adrian and David, all as AD Plumstead and I'm not clear whether these are the same person or just family. I have Adrian in a later Mk VIII in 1959, but a Mk V (which this could be) in 1957. To cap it all, other info suggests he/they were trading cars at this time. The programme for this event has only AD Plumstead as driver/entrant.

Despite all that, I believe them to be July 1959, and await dutchy to correct me over the lesser-known drivers and the other Beart-Coopers...

The race starts are from another meeting, probably more than one, and are going to take a bit longer to define.

[Robin Fairservice]

Number 7 is A.J.C. (Jack) Newtonm and the car is a Cooper. I seem to remember that it was originally an 1100, but Jack only ran a 500 and needed the extra length for his height. I have a coloured photo of him in the identical car taken in 1959 in the Paddock at Brands Hatch. The only difference is the colour of his helmet. Jack sat very high in his car, and he used to duck right down on the straights! Jack came from south London where he had a garage, and I have been told that he is still alive.

[Dutchy]

Sorry Rich, I can't really add anything to what you have said.

Looking at the second photo I'm wondering if the yellow Cooper no.3 is the Beart Mk VIIA?

[HiRich]

Race Start - Photos 1 & 2
Looking closely, these are almost certainly from the same grid - photo 2 matching Row 2 and adding Rows 3 & 4. Also note the long shadows - perhaps a Brands stalwart can help on those.
As you can see pretty much every car is a late-model Cooper. We have enough trouble identifying them, never mind working out colour schemes. But in Photo 2 there is one slightly odd car. Zooming in, I am pretty sure this is how the Flash Special originally looked - note the wraparound screen, and the crease line to the upper bodywork/cockpit.
I agree with Robin (I'm looking at the same photo) that 7 is Jack Newton, but James, I'm pretty certain 3 is just a standard late-model Cooper with an odd nose (it doesn't have Mk VIIa engine side panels.
Pounding through every possible event, only one fits: 4th October 1959, The World Sports Trophy (although the shirt sleeves look odd, and I've no report of the weather). If that's correct, the cars would be:
Front Row:
18 - Tommy Bridger in the Steve Lancefield Cooper Mk IX
12 - Don Parker of course, Cooper Mk XIII (good match to car and driver)
16 - Philip Robinson, Stuart-Cooper (Mk IX-based)
4 - Peter Ellis, Cooper Mk XI
Second Row:
2 - Gordon Jones, perhaps a Cooper Mk X
7 - Jack Newton, Cooper Mk X (the ex-Ivor Bueb car)
23 - John Mew, Cooper Mk IX-JAP, however, Mew supposedly took over the Flash Special
Third Row:
17 - Peter Luke, Cooper Mk XI (seems to match other photos)
8 - Gerry Meharey, Cooper Mk VIII-JAP (seems to match)
3 - Peter Desoutter, unknown late Cooper with a bent nose
5 - Steve Foreman, Cooper Mk XI
Fourth Row:
20 - Flash Special, but with John Mew or intended driver Albert Zains?
The final car would be 15 - Maurice Thomas, Cooper Mk XI

Given the similarity between all late Coopers (Mk VIII-XIII) some of the above might be wrong as it's the closest mode I know they were driving around that time.. But from what I know it seems to stack up.

[HiRich]

Race Start - Photo 3
Different shadows, and at least one car having a different number means a different meeting. Again, ruling out events, one stands out, although it is less certain than the other event.
I think this is 18th April 1960
2 - Gordon Jones, Cooper Mk X (as above)
7 - Jack Newton (Cooper Mk X (as above)
Car 3 (yellow, running up the far side) seems to be the same car Ellis ran as No 4 in the other pictures.
Car 1 (dark green nearest) would most likely be Jack Pitcher. It would most likely be the Beart-Cooper Mk XI seen in the Brian Rowsell photo (Photo 5). This car had been used in 1958 by Trevor Taylor.
which leaves the red Car 4. If the event is correct, this would be EG Willmott - a man on whom I have no information, other than he was running a Cooper 1958-60.

[Geoff E]

Race Start - Photo 3
Different shadows,

Presumably, in the first two photos the shadows indicate a time of perhaps 4-5pm, while in photo 3 it was not long after noon. Can the dates be ascertained from the event numbers or race times in the programme?

[Vitesse2]

Race Start - Photos 1 & 2
Looking closely, these are almost certainly from the same grid .....

Definitely - reference point the group of three men (at least two of whom look to be St John's Ambulancemen) and the lady in blue pedalpushers behind them.

Pounding through every possible event, only one fits: 4th October 1959, The World Sports Trophy (although the shirt sleeves look odd, and I've no report of the weather).

The weekend of 3/4 October 1959 saw record amounts of sunshine and unusually high temperatures in most areas of the UK. Many places in southern England reported maxima of 77deg F on the 4th, with London reporting 74deg F.

[HiRich]

Vitesse - brilliant on the weather. That was bothering me, given the number of 750MC Mallory finales I've shivered through!
The 4th October race was scheduled for only 2:45pm so still feels a but iffy. A Junior/500 race was scheduled for 4:40pm, but only the top seven 500s are listed (and seven Juniors, all recorded). We also have the problem of John Mew apparently in two cars at the same time (neither appeared in the 500/Junior race, so it doesn't appear to be a miisunderstanding).

The 18th April race was scheduled for 12:55pm, so that would fit the shadows. But my identification is based on assumptions from the presumed 4th October event and good colour shots for liveries are thin on the ground. In several cases, this would be the first photo I've found of some of these cars and drivers.

But we're still left with these being the only events where all the numbers match up, and I can't see how such a big grid could have been missed by so many people. So I'd say we're at about 75% sure.

[Vitesse2]

Returning to the weather - the whole of 1959 was exceptionally dry: the period from May to October was said to be the driest since at least 1750. Note in the probable October pictures that the grass looks very parched: that could be fading of the picture, but the grass nearest the track is green, indicating that there is very little fade on the print/negative. On the one Rich thinks is April, the grass is much greener.

[piperp2]

Guys

Thank you very much for all your replies, to have the grids, drivers, cars, dates, time etc analysed is truly amazing, and the knowledge on this forum is beyond belief. I have found this fascinating especially as I become more and more immersed in the history of motor racing. I will be collecting some more slides in late September, so there may be some more 500 photos so I will keep you posted.

Edited by piperp2, 05 August 2009 - 14:06.

[HiRich]

Just to update, Duncan Rabagliati and Richard Page came up with the same two events by different methods, so I think we can confirm.
The only revisions/issues are:
- Car 23 (John Mew): Contemporary notes from other meetings have the car as red. Since he probably only ran one car in his three years, there's no real answer to that.
- Car 20 (Flash Special): The original version of Duncan's books has John Mew taking over this car. That was an error, and the driver is marked-up in my programme as "G Menzies". I would expect that to be Jeremy Menzies, who drove the Petty in 1958 but doesn't seem to have driven anything in 1959.

[Tony Matthews]

Returning to the weather - the whole of 1959 was exceptionally dry: the period from May to October was said to be the driest since at least 1750.

It was a 'scorcher'! I was 15, and spent the whole of the summer holidays at the local swimming pool, and cycled home on melting tarmac...

[chfrank]

At last I seem to have resolved the problem and this is what the original post should have looked like. I was told the slides were taken in 1960/61 but I do have some slides taken at Brands in 1959 so these could be earlier. The drivers in the last two slides are quite visible, does anyone recognise them?

Can I get higher resolution photos of the photos containing car number 7 Jack Newton, we now own this car and larger files would help us.

thanks,

Chris

[Bloggsworth]

Surely there can be no doubt that it is Brands. There is a Triumph Herald in the first picture, so no earlier than 22nd April 1959.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 02 January 2012 - 23:26.

[chfrank]

Race Start - Photos 1 & 2
Looking closely, these are almost certainly from the same grid - photo 2 matching Row 2 and adding Rows 3 & 4. Also note the long shadows - perhaps a Brands stalwart can help on those.
As you can see pretty much every car is a late-model Cooper. We have enough trouble identifying them, never mind working out colour schemes. But in Photo 2 there is one slightly odd car. Zooming in, I am pretty sure this is how the Flash Special originally looked - note the wraparound screen, and the crease line to the upper bodywork/cockpit.
I agree with Robin (I'm looking at the same photo) that 7 is Jack Newton, but James, I'm pretty certain 3 is just a standard late-model Cooper with an odd nose (it doesn't have Mk VIIa engine side panels.
Pounding through every possible event, only one fits: 4th October 1959, The World Sports Trophy (although the shirt sleeves look odd, and I've no report of the weather). If that's correct, the cars would be:
Front Row:
18 - Tommy Bridger in the Steve Lancefield Cooper Mk IX
12 - Don Parker of course, Cooper Mk XIII (good match to car and driver)
16 - Philip Robinson, Stuart-Cooper (Mk IX-based)
4 - Peter Ellis, Cooper Mk XI
Second Row:
2 - Gordon Jones, perhaps a Cooper Mk X
7 - Jack Newton, Cooper Mk X (the ex-Ivor Bueb car)
23 - John Mew, Cooper Mk IX-JAP, however, Mew supposedly took over the Flash Special
Third Row:
17 - Peter Luke, Cooper Mk XI (seems to match other photos)
8 - Gerry Meharey, Cooper Mk VIII-JAP (seems to match)
3 - Peter Desoutter, unknown late Cooper with a bent nose
5 - Steve Foreman, Cooper Mk XI
Fourth Row:
20 - Flash Special, but with John Mew or intended driver Albert Zains?
The final car would be 15 - Maurice Thomas, Cooper Mk XI

Given the similarity between all late Coopers (Mk VIII-XIII) some of the above might be wrong as it's the closest mode I know they were driving around that time.. But from what I know it seems to stack up.

Rich, I now own the Jack Newton car and we are trying to track who owned the car prior to Jack. The car has a lightweight lowered seat with simple straps, a lowered fuel tank and ajs 7r gearbox. Are you certain this is an ex-Bueb car?
If you can confirm this is would be excellent information! I assume Ivor moved to the mark 10 in 1956 with the 1955 Mark IX being a works car and not a team DEMILITER car...

Thanks,

Chris

[eldougo]

Info On Brands Hatch.

Brands Hatch Stadium Ltd. was formed in 1947[2] and saw the circuit surfaced in April 1950 to create a 1-mile (1.6 km) oval course suitable for cars. The Half Litre Car Club for 500 cc Formula Three organised the first race on the 16th April, and in 1953 the Universal Motor Racing Club was established, with a racing school set up at Brands Hatch. The Half Litre Club, later to become the British racing and Sports Car Club, ran many races throughout the 1950s and firmly established the venue as one of Britain's top racing circuits.

Edited by eldougo, 03 January 2012 - 05:45.

[HiRich]

Rich, I now own the Jack Newton car and we are trying to track who owned the car prior to Jack. The car has a lightweight lowered seat with simple straps, a lowered fuel tank and ajs 7r gearbox. Are you certain this is an ex-Bueb car?
If you can confirm this is would be excellent information! I assume Ivor moved to the mark 10 in 1956 with the 1955 Mark IX being a works car and not a team DEMILITER car...

Thanks,

Chris

Chris,
Yes, I know. And no, I'm no longer certain that it's the Bueb car. I picked that up somewhere along the way but can't verify it - in my notes it's back down to "an unsupported rumour". Sorry . I'm getting back to you with some email stuff (for which, remember the Car 35 in the images above, which is causing some problems with identifications).
While we're at it, John Mew has confirmed he did not drive the Flash Special