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Possible F1 Qualy Format changes


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#1 MS7XWDC

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 03:21

"A plan that would make the starting lineup more unpredictable is to have five cars challenge in the preliminary session, with the two fastest progressing to challenge the next group of five until the grid is determined ...."

http://tsn.ca/auto_r...tory/?id=286165

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#2 Conk

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 03:24

There have been many format changes over the years and I like the current one the best so far.

I say don't mess with it, if it aint broke don't fix it

#3 Direct Drive

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:01

I love the knock out qualifying. Best thing in F1 as far as I'm concerned

#4 fanboy

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:08

"A plan that would make the starting lineup more unpredictable is to have five cars challenge in the preliminary session, with the two fastest progressing to challenge the next group of five until the grid is determined ...."

http://tsn.ca/auto_r...tory/?id=286165

Sigh, more retarded circus antics. When will these morons understand that this is a sport and leave the competitors to compete on merit?

I dont even understand how this new idea is supposed to make the grid more predictable?? They seem think by shuffling the ingredients you get a different food. The fastest packages will always be at the front 98% of the time no matter how much you try to spin. Who ever gave them the idea that we want to see more unpredictable grids instead of genuine competition and merit with the fastest packages at the front, which is actually the whole idea of a race.

Edited by fanboy, 30 July 2009 - 04:13.


#5 Spa95

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:09

Now the FOTA fans get what they asked for...Flavios 'better show' rules.

#6 fanboy

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:15

The people who run the sport are actually trying to undermine the basic concept of it by looking for ways to subvert the fastest packages. Its astounding how F1 is so out of touch.

#7 Muz Bee

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 04:20

The plan revealed little detail so how are we supposed to make informed content at this early stage? If all the teams agree and thought has gone into a sustainable qualifying process that won't change every year then let's have a look. I am about sick of the changes for changes sake that we have seen in this part of F1. And especially things which are what Martin Brundle termed "plastic racing". If it ain't broke.......

#8 Demo.

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:05

The madness that is FOTA is starting enjoy seeing what the selfish FOTA who realy realy dont care about us fans come up with next.
before you say its great ask a simple question is it in the best intrests of F1 and us the fans or is it about just ensuring the big fish have even more of the pie

#9 mursuka80

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:17

Im confused about this new format proposition. Empty tanks,1 hour as many laps as you like is what i wanna see.

#10 scolbourne

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 05:37

I like the current qualifying (except the third round on race fuel). Next year with no refuleing I hope we have the third round on fumes as well.

The idea of 36 cars racing must be good. I heard there was a limit on pit lane space stopping more teams (>13) but I guess one team shares their garage between its 3 cars.

#11 lustigson

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:08

From a purist's point of view, I liked the 1-hour 12-lap sessions the best. However, the current system has not 1 but 3 exciting deadlines: 1 for each session. And that's good.

#12 Ramses1348

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:14

I like the current qualifying (except the third round on race fuel). Next year with no refuleing I hope we have the third round on fumes as well.


:up:

exactly my thoughts! Once Q3 will also be run on fumes then we will have the perfect system!

#13 Pingguest

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:31

:up:

exactly my thoughts! Once Q3 will also be run on fumes then we will have the perfect system!


The post-qualifying parc fermé will continue to exist.

The best qualifying format was used until 1993. Drivers had tyres, engines and setups specificity for qualifying. At least the pole man wasn't necessarily the fastest in the race.

#14 peroa

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:46

3 sessions - 20 min each
5 min pause for commercials between
NO race fuel
Q3 feat. 10 cars
Parc ferme rules

#15 brabhamBT19

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:48

2 sesions 60 minutes each

one of friday, one on saturday

12 laps per session per driver, fastest laps determines grid, no matter set on friday or saturday

#16 Rob

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 07:57

I like the current qualifying (except the third round on race fuel). Next year with no refuleing I hope we have the third round on fumes as well.

The idea of 36 cars racing must be good. I heard there was a limit on pit lane space stopping more teams (>13) but I guess one team shares their garage between its 3 cars.


The 26 car limit is for safety, but even those without garages could prep for pre-qualifying under an awning in the paddock.


#17 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:06

2 sesions 60 minutes each

one of friday, one on saturday

12 laps per session per driver, fastest laps determines grid, no matter set on friday or saturday


Seriously though... what is the point of that? Saturday will always be faster than Friday due to the track having more rubber down on it - the exception being if it rains on the Saturday and not the friday.

Unless there is some reward for qualifying well on the friday session then I really don't see the point of this suggestion...

As said earlier - if it ain't broke...

#18 ViMaMo

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:07

:up:

exactly my thoughts! Once Q3 will also be run on fumes then we will have the perfect system!


It might, it might not. Look at Alonso's qualifying last race, he put less race fuel and qualified on pole. This was the exact intention of the race fuel qualifying, mix up the grid.

A compromise would be two quick qualifyings in Q3:
one run on fumes, get points 6,5,4,3,2,1.
one run on race fuel, determine grid position.

#19 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:17

No more changes. NONE. I'm bored of it.

You want to make it better? Send 32 cars out there for 1 hour to fight for 26 grid slots. That will make it better. For the Grid we have, ths is the best we can get. Next year it'll have to be run on fumes (or tanked up - but equal, either way) because there will be no in race refuelling.

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#20 JuanF1

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:38

Hey, they may still decide to run Q3 with race fuel, just to annoy us a little bit more.

#21 Pingguest

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:40

3 sessions - 20 min each
5 min pause for commercials between
NO race fuel
Q3 feat. 10 cars
Parc ferme rules


Why should Formula 1 continue to have the post-qualifying parc fermé?

#22 D.M.N.

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:45

Keep it the same as now - forgoddamnsakes.

#23 stevewf1

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:47

Why even have qualifying anymore?

These days, it isn't like someone will fail to make the race because they can't "qualify" for it. Every car starts anyway.

Come up with some sort of elaborate show where grid positions are determined by random drawing. After all, F1 wants to save money and eliminating qualifying would help.


#24 noikeee

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 08:53

3 sessions - 20 min each
5 min pause for commercials between
NO race fuel
Q3 feat. 10 cars
Parc ferme rules


Exactly. The current one is perfect if they drop the race fuel thing, there's no more need for any more crazy changes. Honestly if they think the problem in F1 right now is qualifying they must be a little bit retarded.

#25 stevvy1986

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:14

Keep it as it is, but have Q3 the same as Q1 and Q2. The 1 hour 12 laps/as many laps as you like suggestion would just lead to the same thing happening as used to happen. In other words nobody other than maybe 1 of the slower teams going out for the first 30-40mins. And suggesting 1 session on Friday and 1 on Saturday wouldn't be that good an idea. For a start, I want it on the 1 day, not over 2, and also if it's dry on Friday and wet on Saturday, then it makes the Saturday session an absolute waste of time, and chances are nobody would even go out, other than maybe for an installation lap after Friday's running. Could you imagine broadcasters showing the Saturday session when it's pouring down and there's no chance of any improvements, and basically nobody going out? They'd be livid no doubt. Plus chances are most broadcasters wouldn't even show the Friday session, and even if they did, most people would be at work etc and so wouldn't be able to see it anyway. Just leave it as it is, but with Q3 the same as Q1 and Q2.

#26 brabhamBT19

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:25

Seriously though... what is the point of that? Saturday will always be faster than Friday due to the track having more rubber down on it - the exception being if it rains on the Saturday and not the friday.

Unless there is some reward for qualifying well on the friday session then I really don't see the point of this suggestion...

As said earlier - if it ain't broke...



well it wasnt broke in the first place, and my proposition is just that what was in first place

#27 krapmeister

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:36

well it wasnt broke in the first place, and my proposition is just that what was in first place


um... no - there never was a 'qualifying' session on a friday...

#28 D.M.N.

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:38

http://en.f1-live.co...730123649.shtml

Why do FOTA make some god damn stupid suggestions? :mad:

"Not long after the Munich carmaker announced its decision to withdraw, Formula One Teams' Association secretary general Simone Perillo said work has begun to increase "the involvement of the fans" and to improve "the F1 show". "

WE DON'T WANT A NEW QUALIFYING FORMAT. Morons.

Edited by D.M.N., 30 July 2009 - 11:39.


#29 MaxFan1

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:40

You wanted FOTA in control instead of FIA? This is what you get.

#30 peroa

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:40

http://en.f1-live.co...730123649.shtml

Why do FOTA make some god damn stupid suggestions? :mad:

"Not long after the Munich carmaker announced its decision to withdraw, Formula One Teams' Association secretary general Simone Perillo said work has begun to increase "the involvement of the fans" and to improve "the F1 show". "

WE DON'T WANT A NEW QUALIFYING FORMAT. Morons.


That's not stupid, that's completely and absolutely retarded.

#31 fanboy

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:45

You wanted FOTA in control instead of FIA? This is what you get.

Oh look another recently joined Mosley troll.

In case you forgot, it was the FIA and Bernie who started messing with qualifying in 2003 and went from one idiotic system to another. I think they changed it about 6 times since 2003.

#32 D.M.N.

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:48

In case you forgot, it was the FIA and Bernie who started messing with qualifying in 2003 and went from one idiotic system to another. I think they changed it about 6 times since 2003.


Thats because it was broke, and needed fixing. The 12 lap qualifying system wasn't good as chances are, for the first half an hour, no one would go out. Not good for TV, not good for anyone.

The system now, I think is the best possible - its exciting and can be unpredictable. Its not broke, so don't fix it.

#33 brabhamBT19

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:50

um... no - there never was a 'qualifying' session on a friday...


are you out of your mind, do you think F1 started in 1996?

before 1996 THERE WERE qualifying sessions on friday you know. check your facts before you assault someone

and it looks as though you picked me as yor target today

but guess what If you continue you'll drop dead, because I know miles more than you

#34 fanboy

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:52

Thats because it was broke, and needed fixing. The 12 lap qualifying system wasn't good as chances are, for the first half an hour, no one would go out. Not good for TV, not good for anyone.

It was more like for the first 10 minutes. Yes the FIA really fixed it by totally undermining the essense of what qualifying used to mean. The fastest package on pole. Now we have a handicap system with fuel loads determing the grid. Totally contrived.

Edited by fanboy, 30 July 2009 - 11:53.


#35 nudger1964

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:56

um... no - there never was a 'qualifying' session on a friday...



i think you will find there was

#36 D.M.N.

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:56

It was more like for the first 10 minutes. Yes the FIA really fixed it by totally undermining the essense of what qualifying used to mean. The fastest package on pole. Now we have a handicap system with fuel loads determing the grid. Totally contrived.

Next year it won't be like that as refuelling is banned. :wave:

#37 peroa

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:57

Thats because it was broke, and needed fixing. The 12 lap qualifying system wasn't good as chances are, for the first half an hour, no one would go out. Not good for TV, not good for anyone.

The system now, I think is the best possible - its exciting and can be unpredictable. Its not broke, so don't fix it.


The only thing that was broke with the 12lap Q was the fact that the teams used Q cars - super expensive.
Introducing (only) parc ferme rules would have stopped that.

But Bernie felt that Ferrari/MS 2002 wasn't good for business and decided to fiddle around, and boy did he and Spanky fiddle around ...

Edited by peroa, 30 July 2009 - 11:58.


#38 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:09

The only thing that was broke with the 12lap Q was the fact that the teams used Q cars - super expensive.
Introducing (only) parc ferme rules would have stopped that.

But Bernie felt that Ferrari/MS 2002 wasn't good for business and decided to fiddle around, and boy did he and Spanky fiddle around ...


Don't be stupid - you remember as we all do, sitting watching the Heat haze and crowd shots whilst Murray commentated on the Plastic Bag on the main straight which was the only thing moving out there. For any thing up to 40 minutes at any track which was expected to cool down. Then we'd have the pleasure of one of the many forgotten Minardi trust fund kids like Tarso-****ing-Marquez or whatever his name was pootling around for 5 laps by himself. Then, 12 minutes from the end, all hell would break loose as every man, his dog and his dog's driving coach would take to the track for one flying lap - you'd see 15 seconds of each Ferrari, Williams, McLaren and Bennetton then they'd be interviewed by Louise Goodman and those who got lucky would claim to timed it to perfection whilst those who didn't "Would have been on pole, but for traffic". End programme, no highlights of hot laps.

WE WERE ALL THERE.

#39 peroa

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:13

@Calorus

I didn't say it was perfect back then.
I'm trying to say that the massacre that was done with Q over the years wasn't necessary.

Edited by peroa, 30 July 2009 - 12:13.


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#40 Rob

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:17

Lets go back to the one hour format, but take away the 12 lap limit, the restriction on the number of tyres and the mandatory part lifetimes.

#41 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:22

Lets go back to the one hour format, but take away the 12 lap limit, the restriction on the number of tyres and the mandatory part lifetimes.


12 Lap Limit was never the problem, well, not since qualiflyres went in the early nineties.

The track is slow until the rubber's down, no-one wants to put the rubber down, and no-one wants to put extra miles on their race engines and boxes.

If you have an infinite amount of laps it's still faster to follow a back marker five minutes from the end of the hour than to breeze round in clear air half an hour in.

#42 Ramses1348

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:29

12 Lap Limit was never the problem, well, not since qualiflyres went in the early nineties.

The track is slow until the rubber's down, no-one wants to put the rubber down, and no-one wants to put extra miles on their race engines and boxes.

If you have an infinite amount of laps it's still faster to follow a back marker five minutes from the end of the hour than to breeze round in clear air half an hour in.


Hence the knock out session, that forces everyone to go out like this year. The problem with this year is the fuel qualifying + par ferme which is completely rubbish and allow for cheap "low fuel" pole, besides aligning the car more or less according to the race trim you can expect.

The 1h/12 laps system + warm up on sunday morning was according to me the best we've had so far, only downside was the lack of track action during the first half of the qualifying, which can be corrected if you use the Q1 Q2 Q3 system, as said above

#43 Rob

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:31

12 Lap Limit was never the problem, well, not since qualiflyres went in the early nineties.

The track is slow until the rubber's down, no-one wants to put the rubber down, and no-one wants to put extra miles on their race engines and boxes.

If you have an infinite amount of laps it's still faster to follow a back marker five minutes from the end of the hour than to breeze round in clear air half an hour in.


If they could just fit new engines and gearboxes on a whim without penalty, they'd all be out there laying rubber down.


#44 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:31

@Calorus

I didn't say it was perfect back then.
I'm trying to say that the massacre that was done with Q over the years wasn't necessary.


The wilderness years were awful. But in fairness, they were only as awful as the 12L/60m format had become.

The only thing that ever made it watchable were the disposable Q cars, and Qualy tyres which would stick to Teflon and 6 too many cars on the track for the grid.

You can't expect people to drive around a green track at full chat when stuffing a car ruins their entire weekend, breaking an engine ruins their entire weekend (and possibly another in a few months) and their time will still be destroyed by a Force India before the end of the session.

#45 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:34

If they could just fit new engines and gearboxes on a whim without penalty, they'd all be out there laying rubber down.


Engine penalties came in three years after the format changed.

#46 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:37

Hence the knock out session, that forces everyone to go out like this year. The problem with this year is the fuel qualifying + par ferme which is completely rubbish and allow for cheap "low fuel" pole, besides aligning the car more or less according to the race trim you can expect.

The 1h/12 laps system + warm up on sunday morning was according to me the best we've had so far, only downside was the lack of track action during the first half of the qualifying, which can be corrected if you use the Q1 Q2 Q3 system, as said above


That's fine - but Q1/Q2/Q3 all on equal fuel is by definition how next year will work. Hence stop changing things. I miss Sunday warm-ups but GP2 is WAY better.

Edited by Calorus, 30 July 2009 - 12:37.


#47 Rob

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:41

Engine penalties came in three years after the format changed.


Yes, but they had the lap limit and tyres to save.

What I'd like is the following

- 1 hour session
- No lap limit
- No tyre limit
- No penalties for changing an engine or gearbox

#48 MaxFan1

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:45

Yes, but they had the lap limit and tyres to save.

What I'd like is the following

- 1 hour session
- No lap limit
- No tyre limit
- No penalties for changing an engine or gearbox


So esentially free practice? To be honest people would probably just come out in the last second because no one wants to go out there just to clean the track for others.

#49 Rob

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:49

So esentially free practice? To be honest people would probably just come out in the last second because no one wants to go out there just to clean the track for others.


Why would they sit in the pits when they have what is essentially free running? With the testing ban, do you think they'd refuse a chance to get extra data and extra track knowledge for the driver?

#50 Calorus

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 12:52

Yes, but they had the lap limit and tyres to save.

What I'd like is the following

- 1 hour session
- No lap limit
- No tyre limit
- No penalties for changing an engine or gearbox


The tyres to save is the only valid part of that - the lap limit was only ever challenged by slow people.
What you're suggesting is basically drivel equivalent to me saying "What I'd like to see unlimited aero, aspiration and displacement and all teams run by Garagistes."

I can say it, and it sounds nice, but saying it serves no purpose.

Unlimited tyres would mean unlimited tyres for the whole weekend. No penalties for changing engine and gearbox would mean the end to the hardware economy drive and no lap limit would make no difference whatsoever, because you'll still be a good 6 tenths faster MINIMUM just by going out in the last 10 minutes.

The only way to make people even consider running on the track early would be to have GP2 cars on super-soft F1 tyres run around in circles non-stop for 2 hours at the start of each Qualy session. But some might argue it's not exactly the best solution for F1's greenwashing credentials.