Jump to content


Photo

Curb your enthusiasm, BMW situation is much different than Honda


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 brabhamBT19

brabhamBT19
  • Member

  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:10

Do not expect miracles from BWM buy out. It wont happen. Because:

1) Honda had already 90% finished product (racing vehicle) for 2009, BMW has nothing for 2010, tehrefore is less lucrative to potential buyer

2) Honda was based in mekka of F1 (Brackley), while BMW is based in the middle of nowhere (Hinwill) far away from the major test circuit and other teams, and this is crucial because whom ever buys it will seek technical partnership from other teams

3) Honda had Ross Brawn a true F1 man who was aroud since the time of Alan Jones as such it was natural step forward for him to buy himself his own team, while BMW has that certain doctor who was always the BMW man, that makes him perfect candidate for other BMW function (eg. road car dept.) instead of buying the team. Of other candidates I have doubt in Peter Sauber's motivation but also his wealth that rules him out.

Edited by brabhamBT19, 30 July 2009 - 10:11.


Advertisement

#2 bankoq

bankoq
  • Member

  • 2,078 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:22

The main reason is why they won't do Brawn is that their people are far less talented than the guys from top crafts.

#3 brabhamBT19

brabhamBT19
  • Member

  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:22

cmon discuss dammit

#4 brabhamBT19

brabhamBT19
  • Member

  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:23

The main reason is why they won't do Brawn is that their people are far less talented than the guys from top crafts.



you mean the guys that produced 2008 BMW are not talented :well: :well:

strange thinking

#5 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,615 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:24

But I don't wanna discuss it!
 ;)

#6 Pilla

Pilla
  • Member

  • 2,334 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:43

Doesn't Peter Sauber still hold a minority share holding? Could he be in the frame.

Things are a little different than Honda, if BMW still continue to fund the development of next years car whilst trying to find a buyer.

BMW has sponsors (which Honda didn't), is has facilities, it has top line drivers. I think it is probably very attractive.

#7 bankoq

bankoq
  • Member

  • 2,078 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:49

you mean the guys that produced 2008 BMW are not talented :well: :well:


Rampf is miles behind Brawn, Newey or Zander.

There car was generally 0,5s slower than top runners & they had arguably worst development pace on the grid. Bo no mean it was winning car for me. And development pace is everything in WCC & WDC battle - just ask RBR or McLaren/Ferrari from 2008.


#8 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:51

I think Peter Sauber is probably the best bet.

People have mentioned Prodrive but I can't see David Richards risking his company to get into F1 - and rightly so. All his efforts so far have been conditional on setting up and operating the team on a minimal budget (customer cars; possible buyout of Honda; entry lodged for budget capped 2010 championship). It would have to be an exceptionaly good deal for DR to takeover the remains of BMW Sauber.

Also the fact that the team isn't based in England would count against it IMO.

#9 Motormedia

Motormedia
  • Member

  • 2,024 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 30 July 2009 - 10:56

cmon discuss dammit


Not much to discuss. You are right.

#10 brabhamBT19

brabhamBT19
  • Member

  • 1,399 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:01

Not much to discuss. You are right.



as always :wave: :rotfl:

#11 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:02

My goodness you have a hell of a postcount - do you have a job? :p

#12 majkel

majkel
  • Member

  • 249 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:07

I think Peter Sauber is probably the best bet.

People have mentioned Prodrive but I can't see David Richards risking his company to get into F1 - and rightly so. All his efforts so far have been conditional on setting up and operating the team on a minimal budget (customer cars; possible buyout of Honda; entry lodged for budget capped 2010 championship). It would have to be an exceptionaly good deal for DR to takeover the remains of BMW Sauber.

Also the fact that the team isn't based in England would count against it IMO.


Unless it's total crap, Polish media already informed that Peter Sauber is not intrested in taking over the team.

#13 djellison

djellison
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:11

Do not expect miracles from BWM buy out. It wont happen. Because:

1) Honda had already 90% finished product (racing vehicle) for 2009, BMW has nothing for 2010, tehrefore is less lucrative to potential buyer


The '10 cars will be quite simple to evolve from '09 . BMW may have 'nothing' for 2010 (which I doubt) but they also have 8 months until 2010 starts. Other teams may well have as much 'nothing' for 2010 as BMW right now. Does that mean they should give up now and go home?

2) Honda was based in mekka of F1 (Brackley), while BMW is based in the middle of nowhere (Hinwill) far away from the major test circuit and other teams, and this is crucial because whom ever buys it will seek technical partnership from other teams


So what? Hinwill is as close to Jerez and Barca as Brackley. Sauber has AMAZING facilities. It would be a superb base for any potential team.

3) Honda had Ross Brawn a true F1 man who was aroud since the time of Alan Jones as such it was natural step forward for him to buy himself his own team, while BMW has that certain doctor who was always the BMW man, that makes him perfect candidate for other BMW function (eg. road car dept.) instead of buying the team. Of other candidates I have doubt in Peter Sauber's motivation but also his wealth that rules him out.


So what? People come and go. Someone could come onboard and take over the BMW operation and call it their own. It doesn't require a Ross Brawn to do that.

You don't half write some nonsense.

#14 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:13

Unless it's total crap, Polish media already informed that Peter Sauber is not intrested in taking over the team.


Probably true - he's run an F1 team before - may very well not be interested again.

Are any of the parties that lodged entries with the FIA for 2010 swiss or german based?

#15 JensonF1

JensonF1
  • Member

  • 586 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:18

I think the staff will find jobs in the new F1 teams, the facilities will be sold off and used ad hoc by various companies (car manufacturers mostly) who need the computing power and wind tunnel. Yes sadly the Sauber name will vanish and indeed so will the team.

It is indeed like a Larry David episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm... it's all gone wrong - a big bowl of wrong in fact.

#16 se7en_24

se7en_24
  • Member

  • 14,088 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:33

I think the staff will find jobs in the new F1 teams, the facilities will be sold off and used ad hoc by various companies (car manufacturers mostly) who need the computing power and wind tunnel. Yes sadly the Sauber name will vanish and indeed so will the team.

The Sauber name was going to be dropped soon anyway - next season I think.

#17 kNt

kNt
  • Member

  • 1,694 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 30 July 2009 - 11:36

It's not even sure BMW is willing to sell the team. The Wind tunnel can also be used for automotive applications (because of it's size), composites are getting more common and some of the facilities could be used for the rest of the motor sport they keep doing.

Sauber sold to BMW to keep the team safe for the future. His statement from yesterday(roughly translated): "I was surprised. I accept the decision but do not understand it. I will do anything in my power to find a solution (to keep the Hinwil facilities)."

#18 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,455 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 30 July 2009 - 13:02

They'll be back in 4 or 5 years once Max is out, Bernie is out or under control and F1 has some stable and sensible governing body. You know, onjce they are assured they won't need to design completely new cars or make major overhauls to adapt to rule changes every other year.

#19 Jedi_F1

Jedi_F1
  • Member

  • 747 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 30 July 2009 - 13:34

BrabhamBT19 you are right,
but never say never...

I think that the chance that a new team buys the team's entry is a little bit bigger then selling it to someone.
If time isn't running out ofcourse for a new team!

But there are advantages too:
-there's much more time then with the ex-Honda team to sell it.
-if you buy it, just like with Honda everything is already in place
-building a car for 2010 is not such a big difference to the one they use this year, the fueltank capacity will be the main thing to change.



Advertisement

#20 DOF_power

DOF_power
  • Member

  • 1,538 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 13:42

>
^ The info I have about BMW is this, if there will be a green-technology racing series - a true R&D laboratory for car manufacturers - then BMW will be ready to join such a series.

Don't be surprised if there will be some BMW Le Mans diesel/bio-fuel/hybrids in the future.

Edited by DOF_power, 30 July 2009 - 13:43.


#21 johnap

johnap
  • Member

  • 280 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 14:02

>
^ The info I have about BMW is this, if there will be a green-technology racing series - a true R&D laboratory for car manufacturers - then BMW will be ready to join such a series.

Don't be surprised if there will be some BMW Le Mans diesel/bio-fuel/hybrids in the future.


Agree, BMW isn't going to simply sell off a top line motorsport facility like Hinwil.

The way the 2011 Le Mans rules are shaking out makes a lot of sense for a large manufacturer. They already have a GT car in the form of the M3, and the 2011 LMP2 rules stipulate GT engines. With their Hinwil facility BMW could build both LMP1 and LMP2 chassis.

The GTs/P2s could be sold as customer cars, which could subsidise a P1 car which could run a 2.0l inline 6 turbo with the various EfficientDynamics technologies BMW has. A 2.0l turbo could also be used in Indycar (once they stop dicking around and decide on a new formula)



#22 KiwiF1

KiwiF1
  • Member

  • 399 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 30 July 2009 - 21:55

I don't believe that BMW will do any further work on the 09 car, and definately '10 is not on the radar, basically as of Wednesday the money from BMW has gone, they will be winding down business to finish in November. Before then both Kubica and Heidfeld will be signed to other teams and most of the talent of personnel will be with other teams. Plus I think BMW will want a fair bit of money for the facilities, not just a small $ value to be rid of it.

#23 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,237 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 30 July 2009 - 22:01

I think Peter Sauber is probably the best bet.

People have mentioned Prodrive but I can't see David Richards risking his company to get into F1 - and rightly so. All his efforts so far have been conditional on setting up and operating the team on a minimal budget (customer cars; possible buyout of Honda; entry lodged for budget capped 2010 championship). It would have to be an exceptionaly good deal for DR to takeover the remains of BMW Sauber.

Also the fact that the team isn't based in England would count against it IMO.



Yep that Prodrive just plonked their Aston V12 from GT1 into a Lola chassis (can be purchased for just 500,000 euro or so per car???) with a few tweaks (total program no more expensive than the GT1 class?), instead of building their own car in attempts to have the best chassis in the field, shows that Prodrive are quite cheap. :)

#24 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 30 July 2009 - 22:27

Yep that Prodrive just plonked their Aston V12 from GT1 into a Lola chassis (can be purchased for just 500,000 euro or so per car???) with a few tweaks (total program no more expensive than the GT1 class?), instead of building their own car in attempts to have the best chassis in the field, shows that Prodrive are quite cheap. :)


Not cheap - fiscally efficient!  ;) :lol:

#25 JarnoA

JarnoA
  • Member

  • 752 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 30 July 2009 - 22:47

Do not expect miracles from BWM buy out. It wont happen. Because:

1) Honda had already 90% finished product (racing vehicle) for 2009, BMW has nothing for 2010, tehrefore is less lucrative to potential buyer


Honda royally sucked for 2 years. Potential buyers didn't know that the Brawn would be any good, which is why there where none.

2) Honda was based in mekka of F1 (Brackley), while BMW is based in the middle of nowhere (Hinwill) far away from the major test circuit and other teams, and this is crucial because whom ever buys it will seek technical partnership from other teams


Zurich is hardly the middle of nowhere. It is the middle of Europe and very close to German, Italian and French tracks. The facilities at Hinwill are fantastic, and befitting a team ready to take on a world championship charge.

3) Honda had Ross Brawn a true F1 man who was aroud since the time of Alan Jones as such it was natural step forward for him to buy himself his own team, while BMW has that certain doctor who was always the BMW man, that makes him perfect candidate for other BMW function (eg. road car dept.) instead of buying the team. Of other candidates I have doubt in Peter Sauber's motivation but also his wealth that rules him out.


Ross Brawn is obviously very good, but don't belittle the team at Sauber. This is the team that achieved a 1/2 last year, comfortable 3rd in the WCC, and 2nd in the WCC the year before, (albeit should have been third). They have fallen back this year, but look at McLaren, Ferrari and Renault. Too many people try to place success or failure in the hands of one man. It isn't that clear cut, and the people at BMW, McLaren and Ferrari are the same guys as last year. Nobody expected such a tight field after such a huge regulations change, and a few tenths can mean the difference between podium and nothing. The guys at BMW Sauber are very professional workers at the top of their game.