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Should Renault be racing in Valencia?


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Poll: Should Renault be racing in Valencia? (252 member(s) have cast votes)

You decide.

  1. Renault should race. (213 votes [84.52%])

    Percentage of vote: 84.52%

  2. Renault should remain banned. (39 votes [15.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.48%

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#1 senna da silva

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 00:40

Should the FIA overturn the Steward's decision and allow Renault to race?

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#2 nneads

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 00:43

Of course Renault should be allowed to race in Spain. The head pit lane mechanic should be fired for releasing the unsafe car. That is all.

#3 ron_dennis

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:04

it was not a fitting penalty for what happened

Renault should be penalized 10 grid spots and a fine

I cannot stand Flavio, Renault or Piquet but think the ban was shocking and it should be overturned at once!

#4 senna da silva

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:06

I don't even think the head mechanic should be fired. Webber's red bull was also released unsafely. How many times has Ferrari released cars unsafely? Williams used to be the worst at attaching wheels.

When the teams are forced into having to make pitstops in which they are racing against time, human errors WILL happen.

#5 Zhuk

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:45

Renault should definitely be racing at Valencia, the fans want to see Renault and Alonso race and that is what is most important.

#6 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 04:12

So do most think its ok that they did not even tell Alonso about the danger.
I agree it is not right that the drivers have a penalty but no way Renault should be let off so lightly.
stripped of all points for this year and a £50-150M fine would be about right in my book.
Dont forget that Maclaren ended up with a 100M fine for being given information by a ferrari employee.
Isnt putting lives at risk far worse?
Zhuk no watching someone will never be more important than safety.
After all it was only luck that stopped the wheel putting alonso in hospital when it came off.
As when it came off it came back towards Alonso it was just luck it hit the barge board rather than bouncing up into the cockpit

Edited by Demo., 31 July 2009 - 04:16.


#7 cheapracer

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 05:20

Renault should definitely be racing at Valencia, the fans want to see Renault and Alonso race and that is what is most important.


Some of us fans remember with respect the mashalls at Italy and Australia getting killed by errant wheels so in future speak for yourself. Your selfish by the way, considering only what you will lose out on.

The mechanic is a member of the Renault TEAM.

#8 cheapracer

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 05:26

When the teams are forced into having to make pitstops in which they are racing against time, human errors WILL happen.


Which part of the post "human error" Renault knowingly released Alonso with a dangerous car and then failed to warn him allowing an errant wheel incident that has previously killed people don't you understand?


#9 jiber172r

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 05:36

Renault should be fined, howeer Alonso should not be penalised. The FIA would be shooting themselves in the foot by not allowing Alonso to race in his home GP. It would create even mroe FIA hatred after what's already happened this year. THe only thing that will soften the blow is that all the attention will be on Schumi's comeback. But you know what, it'll be a real joy to see Schumi race against Hamilton (which we never saw) and race Kimi with the same car.

#10 arcwulf7

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 05:48

I have no idea what FIA thinks they will accomplish with this. Do they believe that a top F1 team is so careless and unconcerned that they really couldn't be bothered with taking due precautions to avoid a wheel coming off, in a sport where carelessness can lead to bankruptcy, or to injury of drivers and spectators. That would be a definition of negligence and would warrant a penalty like this. But that is not the case here. This was human error in sport where both the technical and the human elements are stretched to their limits. It's no different than some of the dumb decisions drivers make, which are almost always dismissed as 'racing incidents'. The only difference here was this happened with the pit crew, who are under equal stress, and don't have a fan franchise to speak up for them. It's really one of many examples of the FIA culture in F1 which is bureaucratic, casting blame while accepting none. In part its because Mosley has impressed his own personality on it, which is why i'm glad his time is coming to an end, and why i hope no one he is nominating is given the post.

Edited by arcwulf7, 31 July 2009 - 05:49.


#11 FredF1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:31

THe only thing that will soften the blow is that all the attention will be on Schumi's comeback. But you know what, it'll be a real joy to see Schumi race against Hamilton (which we never saw) and race Kimi with the same car.



Unless a certain BCE realises that, with Alonso on the grid for Valencia, then he's got a full house for every world champion of this decade present in the same race. Not that this will influence the outcome - oh no.




#12 Max!

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:48

And how do you think Bernie will influence the independent judges? All senior partners in large law firms. Bribing them? Get a life!

#13 djellison

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:49

Let them race - but for drivers points only. Mistakes happen in pit-stops, that's normal, acceptable, unpunishable. The team should have told him to pull over, however.

#14 Slowinfastout

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:01

Massa of all people was allowed to drive the lenght of the pitlane with the fuel hoae still attached

This is a similar kind of call (definitely a mistake btw).. no need for a witch hunt :rolleyes:

#15 potmotr

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:07

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!

It is a total farce that there is even a question about Renault not racing in Spain.




#16 Motormedia

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:08

I support FIA and Mosley. I think Renault should be allowed to race.

#17 DarthWillie

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:08

off course they should race, it was unsafe, but so was Kimi and his loose exhaust last year in France and so was Nick Heidfeld doing a lap without wheelnut in spain 2007. Neither was punished, so unless there was a rulechange since then banning them is ludicrous.

#18 Slowinfastout

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:10

I support FIA and Mosley. I think Renault should be allowed to race.


What?

Explain that one..

#19 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:19

Massa of all people was allowed to drive the lenght of the pitlane with the fuel hoae still attached

This is a similar kind of call (definitely a mistake btw).. no need for a witch hunt :rolleyes:

renault where found guilty of
a) releasing a car from the pits with a safety problem (understandable error)
b) not stopping the car in the pit lane (ok, short timing)
c) not stopping the car for 75% of the lap (until it failed)


Ferrari & Massa in Singapore made the a) error.....bu they stopped at b).
Similar kind? :)

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#20 Muz Bee

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:27

I support FIA and Mosley. I think Renault should be allowed to race.

In all things. :rolleyes:


#21 Rob

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:29

Is it a coincidence that all these polls end up with similar results to FIA-vs-FOTA polls?

#22 Youichi

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:32

renault where found guilty of
a) releasing a car from the pits with a safety problem (understandable error)
b) not stopping the car in the pit lane (ok, short timing)
c) not stopping the car for 75% of the lap (until it failed)


The wheel came off at turn 5 out of 15, how is this 75% of the lap ?

#23 papa

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:35

I don't even think the head mechanic should be fired. Webber's red bull was also released unsafely. How many times has Ferrari released cars unsafely? Williams used to be the worst at attaching wheels.

When the teams are forced into having to make pitstops in which they are racing against time, human errors WILL happen.


:up:


and what I do not like about FIA rules is that they are general and leave room for personal interpretation...

#24 potmotr

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:41

off course they should race, it was unsafe, but so was Kimi and his loose exhaust last year in France


Exactly.

#25 JdB

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:52

So do most think its ok that they did not even tell Alonso about the danger.
I agree it is not right that the drivers have a penalty but no way Renault should be let off so lightly.
stripped of all points for this year and a £50-150M fine would be about right in my book.
Dont forget that Maclaren ended up with a 100M fine for being given information by a ferrari employee.
Isnt putting lives at risk far worse?
Zhuk no watching someone will never be more important than safety.
After all it was only luck that stopped the wheel putting alonso in hospital when it came off.
As when it came off it came back towards Alonso it was just luck it hit the barge board rather than bouncing up into the cockpit


Do you actually believe that Alonso didn't know a wheel was about to come off ? Believe me, he knew. From the moment he drove off, he noticed that the wheel was shaking terribly, he slowed down and tried to get to the pits. Before he managed to do so, the wheelfairing came off, and shortly after , the wheel itself. I think it didn't come as a big surprise to him though. And the fact Renault is punished because they didn't tell Alonso is the biggest pile of bs i've ever heard, he already knew. So now Renault is punished because he tried to get back to the pits.... what's next ? If you're rearview mirror is shaking a little you need to pull over and stop racing ? Come on people, this can't be serious, can it ?

gr.Jeroen

Edited by JdB, 31 July 2009 - 08:53.


#26 Snap Matt

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:11

off course they should race, it was unsafe, but so was Kimi and his loose exhaust last year in France and so was Nick Heidfeld doing a lap without wheelnut in spain 2007. Neither was punished, so unless there was a rulechange since then banning them is ludicrous.

Slack stewarding in previous years doesn't excuse teams from making bad safety calls now.

An outright ban or grid penalties affects the driver, when the stewards explicitly said that the team kept information from the driver in this instance. Docking constructor points is a better option I believe.

Anyway, what's the betting that the decision from the case is that Renault are not entitled to have their appeal heard based on some subtle technicality?

#27 fifi

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:20

i think they should race

#28 JPW

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 09:28

I think that Renault should race in Valencia, the message the stewards wanted to convey has been received loud and clear by all teams, so no need to exclude Renault.

Big fine and a suspended race ban would suffice imo.


#29 Motormedia

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:02

What?

Explain that one..


Just wanted to make a point that I don't support FIA blindly, as some seems to think.

#30 orges

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:15

Penalty was to harsh. A grid penalty at worse would have been right.

They should race in valencia and I think they will

#31 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 12:16

Massa of all people was allowed to drive the lenght of the pitlane with the fuel hoae still attached

This is a similar kind of call (definitely a mistake btw).. no need for a witch hunt :rolleyes:

Yeah but Massa stopped as soon as he could, Alonso did not. Also we don't know if he was told on the radio, the stewards will. According to the report he was not told by the team so I think a ban is apporiate espically after the Surtees and Massa incidents.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 31 July 2009 - 12:19.


#32 Kooper

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:37

For those who say Renault should be fined instead of the race ban, how much should the fine be?

#33 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:45

Hell yes. Two freakish accidents in the space of the week brought a knee jerk response. That said I would like to know how KNOWINGLY they sent Alonso back out and why.

#34 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:45

For those who say Renault should be fined instead of the race ban, how much should the fine be?

$100m, obviously. It's the FIA's standard tab.


#35 Atreiu

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:48

Yes, they should race.
I don't think a fine would be fair of useful punishment.
Simply docking some WCC points would do the work.

#36 cheapracer

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:53

I think that Renault should race in Valencia, the message the stewards wanted to convey has been received loud and clear by all teams, so no need to exclude Renault.

Big fine and a suspended race ban would suffice imo.


including - I think DJEllison above got it right, car can start but not eligible for WCC points but Alonso is clear for WDC points.

#37 stevvy1986

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:53

I think they should be given a suspended ban (if they break the rules again in the next 2 years for example they get a ban of X number of races) and a large fine, and maybe possibly a loss of WCC points. I don't really think Alonso himself (or Piquet even though he wasn't involved) should be banned. That was a bit harsh I'd say.

Edited by stevvy1986, 31 July 2009 - 14:53.


#38 Snap Matt

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:55

That said I would like to know how KNOWINGLY they sent Alonso back out and why.

Hopefully we will find out on 17 August. It's a pretty hard conclusion that was reached and I will be interested to see what it was based on.

#39 cheapracer

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 14:56

Do you actually believe that Alonso didn't know a wheel was about to come off ? Believe me, he knew.


Bullshit, he is unable to see if the wheel has it's safety retainer or not - the wheelnut can be loose but if the retainer is in place it won't fall off.


The wheel came off at turn 5 out of 15, how is this 75% of the lap ?


Who cares, we all know what he meant Mr Pedantic.

Edited by cheapracer, 31 July 2009 - 14:59.


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#40 JdB

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 16:13

Bullshit, he is unable to see if the wheel has it's safety retainer or not - the wheelnut can be loose but if the retainer is in place it won't fall off.


He said the wheel had a terrible unbalance, his steering wheel was shaking heavily. You actually think that he felt this, and thought "Oh well, maybe nothing's wrong" ?
He already was driving at very slow speed off the racing line, he knew his car was in deep trouble and he was trying to make it to the pits. He said he saw the wheel fairing come off, that usually is a sign of things to come, and Alonso has been racing cars long enough to expect what was going to happen.

gr.Jeroen

#41 PNSD

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 16:21

If they lose the appeal and do not race then I fully expect the FIA to uphold the same punishment for similar incidents in the future.

Or is that expecting too much from the FIA?

#42 senna da silva

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:02

Is it a coincidence that all these polls end up with similar results to FIA-vs-FOTA polls?


Interesting. Blind faith in the system?

#43 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:09

I have no idea what FIA thinks they will accomplish with this. Do they believe that a top F1 team is so careless and unconcerned that they really couldn't be bothered with taking due precautions to avoid a wheel coming off


yes thats carlessness
far worse than that they did not even warn their driver
What do you think of the fact that when Alonso said i think i have a puncture over the radio to them that they did not say Sorry no Alonso your front wheel is not fitted correctly?
Is that just a forgetfull moment?

#44 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:33

My thoughts for what they are worth....

1: Renault should probably be racing in Valencia, however they should have 10 Championship points docked for this incident, PLUS a fine of $100,000 to the FIA Motorsport Safety Development Fund. This way punishment is fair, it does not affect the driver who had no part in it an sets the precedent for other teams to pay heed by.

2: What do you do to stop this happening again? Teams should be given clear instructions that they must radio in their problem the moment it is discovered they may have a problem with the car, i.e. a mechanic knows something was not fitted properly. The track then goes to a full course YELLLOW, all marshalls bring out the yellow flags, all drivers instantly raise their hand to acknowledge the flags and back off, knowing that there is going to be a slower car somewhere on the track. The car in question engages the pit-lane limiter to reduce the risk of anything flying off the car at speed. Once he reaches the pit-lane road, the flags are signalled to be pulled in and racing begins again....

This is a simple solution that all drivers would be happy to abide by, it saves the need for the safety car, it ensures the marshalls safety by reducing the damaged cars speed to pit lane speed, problem solved.



#45 undersquare

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 21:05


Let's see all the moral outrage from during the race when it happened, BEFORE Max explained how wicked and inexcusable it was. Oh, there wasn't any was there?

Announce the rule change,THEN apply it, is the decent way.

#46 Montoya1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 21:22

Exactly.


But when that happened Henry Surtees was still alive. It really is that simple, I am amazed people don't get that.


#47 undersquare

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 21:42

But when that happened Henry Surtees was still alive. It really is that simple, I am amazed people don't get that.


What is amazing is that supposedly the mature and intelligent FIA experts thought like this too.

Driver dies: instantly change the rules (and don't tell anyone).

#48 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:14

What is amazing is that supposedly the mature and intelligent FIA experts thought like this too.

Driver dies: instantly change the rules (and don't tell anyone).


read what the stewards said and why they were punished first you will clearly see they site rules that are in the rule book.
but why let facts get in the way of your opinion

#49 engel

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:23

Fine them 100,000 and move on. I understand the FIA had to appear to be taking action, in light of Massa/Surtees but no way should they enforce a ban

#50 undersquare

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:47

read what the stewards said and why they were punished first you will clearly see they site rules that are in the rule book.
but why let facts get in the way of your opinion


They used a catchall general rule. Obviously they used one that was in the rule book, but tell us, Mr Fact, the last time they applied it to trying to recover to the pits with a lose wheel...