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Mercedes still debating F1 involvement


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#1 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:08

http://en.f1-live.co...731111142.shtml



The value of Mercedes' involvement in Formula One is still the topic of debate within parent company Daimler, board member Helmut Lense insists.

Earlier this year, Lense was quoted as suggesting that Mercedes should be pulled out of the sport in favour of more worthy projects. Now, in the wake of fellow German carmaker BMW's decision to withdraw at the end of 2009, he reveals that uncertainty about the Mercedes engagement is still debated internally.

"This discussion will surely continue to heat up in light of BMW's withdrawal," Lense told the Stuttgarter Nachrichten newspaper.


Immediately after the BMW announcement on Wednesday, however, a Mercedes spokesman said the marque regretted the decision but insisted it "does not have any influence on our Formula One engagement".

E.A. © CAPSIS International
Source: GMM


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#2 Anomnader

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:10

http://en.f1-live.co...731111142.shtml



The value of Mercedes' involvement in Formula One is still the topic of debate within parent company Daimler, board member Helmut Lense insists.

Earlier this year, Lense was quoted as suggesting that Mercedes should be pulled out of the sport in favour of more worthy projects. Now, in the wake of fellow German carmaker BMW's decision to withdraw at the end of 2009, he reveals that uncertainty about the Mercedes engagement is still debated internally.

"This discussion will surely continue to heat up in light of BMW's withdrawal," Lense told the Stuttgarter Nachrichten newspaper.


Immediately after the BMW announcement on Wednesday, however, a Mercedes spokesman said the marque regretted the decision but insisted it "does not have any influence on our Formula One engagement".

E.A. © CAPSIS International
Source: GMM


I think they are in a different situation to BMW, they only supply engines and also make income supplying those engines to other teams. I personally think Merc will be there a while yet. Hopefully I'm not wrong, but... if it happens with a competitive cosworth or a independent MBHPE its not an end for McLaren

#3 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:11

The sorry state of irrelevance GP racing has sadly "achieved", along with the new draconian environmental legislation and taxation will be pushing the automakers out of the sport.

And with many of the small teams, historically lasting no more then 2-3 seasons (and even that's a strech for most), I don't know how long will this sport survive.

The days "easy" tobacco money and cheap, unreliable death-traps are gone.

Edited by DOF_power, 31 July 2009 - 15:12.


#4 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:16

I think they are in a different situation to BMW, they only supply engines and also make income supplying those engines to other teams. I personally think Merc will be there a while yet. Hopefully I'm not wrong, but... if it happens with a competitive cosworth or a independent MBHPE its not an end for McLaren




They own 40% of McLaren.
And Cosworth won't bring sponsorship money like a manufacturer badge. Nor will Cosworth promote the series, buy sponsorship, offer corporate hospitality and so on.
That's what Williams found out, and that's why the IRL sticks with the 2x more expensive Honda engines as opposed to going for Cosworth .


Some people just don't grasp how much a manufacturer badge is worth.

Edited by DOF_power, 31 July 2009 - 15:17.


#5 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:51

Williams are not in the same league as mclaren when it comes to corperate relations and partnership building. im sure they would do just fine without merc, they have an extensive partnership portfolio and if it needs beefing up then thats what they will do...plus i dont think merc have the kind of contract where they can just pull out without significant notice.

#6 wide-front-wing

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:53

The sorry state of irrelevance GP racing has sadly "achieved", along with the new draconian environmental legislation and taxation will be pushing the automakers out of the sport.

And with many of the small teams, historically lasting no more then 2-3 seasons (and even that's a strech for most), I don't know how long will this sport survive.

The days "easy" tobacco money and cheap, unreliable death-traps are gone.


blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....

#7 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 15:58

Mclaren-Ferrari.. ? :smoking:

#8 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 16:19

Mclaren-Ferrari.. ? :smoking:

I think we would see a spate of suicides on both sides of the divide. :lol:


#9 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 16:23

Mclaren-Ferrari.. ? :smoking:




I see it more like Ferrari/FIAT and Mercedes/Daimler.

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.

#10 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:13

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#11 JensonF1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:18

If Mercedes go, now that will be a disaster.

Losing their customer engines will have a knock on affect. Their engines and KERS are the best in F1.

What power plant would McLaren have in the back if it wasn't for Merc? Its hard to imagine them with anyone else.

#12 mclarensmps

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:18

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.



Is that a serious post?

#13 Anomnader

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:20

Yep, thats the credibility of the opening post shot in one fell swoop. I thought it was serious question. shame.

#14 Scudetto

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:31

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.


Yikes. :eek: I'm with Ricardo on this one. I talk a lot of F1 with a lot of people, and I can't remember a time when anyone used the name Mercedes as a synonym for McLaren.

What you speak is blasphemy. Repent. Consider this a verbal splash of holy water.


#15 chhatra

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 17:32

Mclaren-Ferrari.. ? :smoking:


You crazy kids and your crazy drugs.

#16 anthony says

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:09

There will always be elements within any auto board that question the strategy supported by the majority, and the argument will ebb and flow as the evidence changes.

In this case, a big reason why BMW pulled out was that they didn't win. Merc have won, and the last race result is very timely for Haug. So that argues for Merc to stay in for the time being.

But it is a total fallacy to think that budget limits will make the auto makers more inclined to stay in F1. Firms like BMW and Merc can justify their involvement only if they are winning. The best way to achieve that is to use their scale and resources as an advantage. If there is a level playing field, frozen engine designs, FIA favouritism towards small teams and Cosworth, then BMW and Merc lose their advantage and are less likely to win. So there's no point.

People forget that when Mosley and Ecclestone were operating in F1, it was Ferrari vs Cosworth. That's where we're heading now. Old men hanker after old times. And boy, are they old.

#17 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:23

There will always be elements within any auto board that question the strategy supported by the majority, and the argument will ebb and flow as the evidence changes.

In this case, a big reason why BMW pulled out was that they didn't win. Merc have won, and the last race result is very timely for Haug. So that argues for Merc to stay in for the time being.

But it is a total fallacy to think that budget limits will make the auto makers more inclined to stay in F1. Firms like BMW and Merc can justify their involvement only if they are winning. The best way to achieve that is to use their scale and resources as an advantage. If there is a level playing field, frozen engine designs, FIA favouritism towards small teams and Cosworth, then BMW and Merc lose their advantage and are less likely to win. So there's no point.

People forget that when Mosley and Ecclestone were operating in F1, it was Ferrari vs Cosworth. That's where we're heading now. Old men hanker after old times. And boy, are they old.




So that means piss poor TV ratings, no TV transmission at all in many of today's watching countries, drivers getting killed all the time, car braking down all the time, only 2/3 cars finishing on the same lap ?!

Well at least there where movable wings, ground effects, turbos back then, but none of that now.

I'd say more like IRL, A1 GP and so on.

#18 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:24

Yikes. :eek: I'm with Ricardo on this one. I talk a lot of F1 with a lot of people, and I can't remember a time when anyone used the name Mercedes as a synonym for McLaren.

What you speak is blasphemy. Repent. Consider this a verbal splash of holy water.




Go to Germany and ask about the silver arrows team.



#19 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:31

What power plant would McLaren have in the back if it wasn't for Merc? Its hard to imagine them with anyone else.


Porsche...

They were with them before and Porsche has dropped hints that it is considering an F1 engine if conditions i.e. rules were stable... a McLaren Porsche would be a very interesting combo...

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#20 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:33

Go to Germany and ask about the silver arrows team.

Ah so what you meant to say is "a tiny minority of the Worldwide fan base of McLaren who possibly started following McLaren around the time that they got Mercedes engines because they now had Mercedes engines" - rather than "for many fans and sponsors".

Edited by Ricardo F1, 31 July 2009 - 18:33.


#21 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:35

Go to Germany and ask about the silver arrows team.



:rotfl: there are between 189 and 195 different countries in this world (depending on who you ask) Germany is just one of them.

#22 dabrasco

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:37

Go to Germany and ask about the silver arrows team.


stop your blasphemy! :rotfl: ... go around the world including Germany and ask racing fans whats the name of the team Hamilton drives for and I bet you around 90% will say "Mclaren"..full stop.

the rest will say Mclaren Mercedes and the geeks will say Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes...

ask Ferrari fans who their main rivals are, most will simply tell you Mclaren, not Mclaren-Mercedes

in both cases, almost no one will tell you just "Mercedes" without including Mclaren, and that includes Germany...and yes, i know cos I live in Germany...

what is this rubbish you say about Mclaren not being a known sports brand?

You just nullified whatever credibility your posts have by making such an outlandish statement and sticking by it.

Now wash the hands you used to type that with soap and bleach and unplug your internet for a while :lol:

Edited by dabrasco, 31 July 2009 - 18:39.


#23 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:38

I actually would like to see some numbers of how global and big this alleged mclaren fanbase is..

#24 JensonF1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:39

On the world stage Mercedes are a bigger brand than McLaren. In F1 McLaren are a bigger brand than Mercedes. Seems pretty simple what he was saying really.

#25 MinT

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:39

The sorry state of irrelevance GP racing has sadly "achieved", along with the new draconian environmental legislation and taxation will be pushing the automakers out of the sport.


For someone who clearly doesnt like F1 you spend a lot of time posting about it...

#26 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:40

In North America, BMW Williams drew a bigger crowd to the Canadian GP when they were winning (02-04) compared to Mclaren (05-07)

Edited by BMW_F1, 31 July 2009 - 18:41.


#27 dabrasco

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:46

I actually would like to see some numbers of how global and big this alleged mclaren fanbase is..


early this year, riding off Hamiltons WDC, polls showed Mclaren worldwide fanbase usurped Ferrari's... something that would have seemed unthinkable awhile ago

last year it was close btw the two, (so the poll not just a fluke thing)

apart from the rich history, only bettered by Ferrari, the fanbase has been rising in the past few years... if Mercedes leaves, long as the team gets a solid engine (not that hard as they are homologated) and stays competitive, those numbers will continue to rise.


Its only really in Germany that u get fans of Mclaren because of Mercedes, its very different for the rest of the world.


#28 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:48

any source ?

#29 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:49

I actually would like to see some numbers of how global and big this alleged mclaren fanbase is..



Last time I've checked most teams where around 6% most in popularity apart from Ferrari and McMerc.
My guess is that without MB (that includes no big sponsors and no well payed drivers like Hamilton as in the case of say Williams), McLaren isn't worth more.

#30 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 18:51

early this year, riding off Hamiltons WDC, polls showed Mclaren worldwide fanbase usurped Ferrari's... something that would have seemed unthinkable awhile ago

last year it was close btw the two, (so the poll not just a fluke thing)

apart from the rich history, only bettered by Ferrari, the fanbase has been rising in the past few years... if Mercedes leaves, long as the team gets a solid engine (not that hard as they are homologated) and stays competitive, those numbers will continue to rise.


Its only really in Germany that u get fans of Mclaren because of Mercedes, its very different for the rest of the world.




That's not true, my best friend is a Mercedes and Ferrari fan, but not a McLaren one.
And he's one of the few that know McLaren aren't quite like AMG.

Edited by DOF_power, 31 July 2009 - 18:51.


#31 Keith68

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:08

I think Mercedes situation is very different from BMW, they have a share of an extremely successful team, regular wins and a high profile WDC on the books which gives them invaluable marketing collateral. BMW had a seemingly endless big black hole which offered no return.

Mercedes will make noises once in a while at board level when it comes time to release annual P&L about saving money, but I can't see for one second they will pull investment. And if they do? Well 60% of the company is owned by some pretty wealthy individuals who could easily pick up the slack financially.

At a higher corporate level, McLaren are about to release what should be a very interesting range of supercars, why would Mercedes not want a slice of that pie?

Biggest issue theoretically for F1 would be loss of the best engine on the grid, but its a frozen design so in reality its just a bunch of engineering drawings which could be built by any one of a dozen suitable companies anywhere in the world. It could in theory even be licensed to Cosworth, giving Mercedes a steady income stream without any costs...now thats an interesting thought....



#32 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:36

That's not true, my best friend is a Mercedes and Ferrari fan, but not a McLaren one.
And he's one of the few that know McLaren aren't quite like AMG.


lol, oh well thats that then...next please

#33 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:40

any source ?

the survey was carried out by ING and publish in f1 racing magazine.
google will give you a multitude of sources

#34 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:51

Last time I've checked most teams where around 6% most in popularity apart from Ferrari and McMerc.
My guess is that without MB (that includes no big sponsors and no well payed drivers like Hamilton as in the case of say Williams), McLaren isn't worth more.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Oh keep going, it's fantastic material.

#35 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:51

That's not true, my best friend is a Mercedes and Ferrari fan, but not a McLaren one.

Well done. So that's ONE confirmed then. :rotfl: :rotfl:


#36 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 19:55

taken from msn, so i assume thats ok to quote

"The survey, spanning 160 countries and involving 70,000 people, showed 29 per cent selecting McLaren as their favourite team.

The result is a dramatic turnaround compared with the survey two years ago, when McLaren attracted only 21 per cent of the vote, and the arrival of the new world champion Lewis Hamilton must be credited.

It means Ferrari, previously F1's standout favourite among fans, dipped in popularity from its previous 30 per cent two years ago to 28 per cent in 2008.

The next two favourite teams were Williams and Renault, each polling 6 per cent."


so, even before the hamilton factor, mclaren and ferrari way way way out front of the rest, albeit the norm for ferrari to be ahead.


now, you were saying?

Edited by nudger1964, 31 July 2009 - 19:56.


#37 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:01

IF and I don't for one second think they will pull out.
If mercedes left why does everyone think they would stop making engines?
with the amount of engines they supply they will make a nice profit from supplying them add to it the effective engine freeze and its no research no new molds or designs to work up.
Now is when engine supply should be at its most profitable.
If cosworth can make a profit from working up and supplying a brand new engine how much money are Merc making from selling theirs.

#38 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:05

IF and I don't for one second think they will pull out.
If mercedes left why does everyone think they would stop making engines?
with the amount of engines they supply they will make a nice profit from supplying them add to it the effective engine freeze and its no research no new molds or designs to work up.
Now is when engine supply should be at its most profitable.
If cosworth can make a profit from working up and supplying a brand new engine how much money are Merc making from selling theirs.



i cant see them making a profit just from selling enines...the price is what, 5 million euros a year, for what 3 teams? somehow i dont think that would cover their overheads...Cosworth are a diverse company, mcmerc HPE just do f1 engines

#39 OnyxF1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:18

I see it more like Ferrari/FIAT and Mercedes/Daimler.

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.


Sorry DOF, but you are incorrect. McLaren is most certainly viewed as the more prominent part of the partnership. I've never heard anyone say that Lewis Hamilton drives for Mercedes, it's either McLaren or McLaren-Mercedes. Outside of Germany, I don't imagine many people considering McLaren to be "just a Mercedes sports brand". McLaren has a history going way back with Honda, Peugeot, TAG-Porsche and Ford-Cosworth engines. Most F1 fans still remember the Marlboro McLarens of which Mercedes had little to do with (1995 and 1996 aside).

In fact the prominent battle of the last 30 years in F1 has been McLaren vs. Ferrari going all the way back to the Fittipaldi, Lauda and Hunt era. Most fans consider Mercedes to be a relatively new addition to the sport despite having been present in the GP era and early F1 era. McLaren and Ferrari are the two most popular teams because of the rivalry and history between them. That's why a lot of Tifosi and McLaren fans feel disinterested at the sport this year, because there's no continuation of the epic duel between the two teams.

Apologies if I sound a little melodramatic.

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#40 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:19

i cant see them making a profit just from selling enines...the price is what, 5 million euros a year, for what 3 teams? somehow i dont think that would cover their overheads...Cosworth are a diverse company, mcmerc HPE just do f1 engines


So i take it you think cosworth will be making F1 engines at a loss then?
Unlike what Cosworth have said, and they had to design the engine and all molds from the ground up,and then redevelop it again when the rev spec changed.

#41 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:29

So i take it you think cosworth will be making F1 engines at a loss then?
Unlike what Cosworth have said, and they had to design the engine and all molds from the ground up,and then redevelop it again when the rev spec changed.


no i dont think they will be making f1 engines at a loss...i think what i said, cosworth are a diverse company making many engines for many applications....they are not a company only making f1 engines for 3 teams...its about overheads costs and boring stuff like that

#42 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:38

taken from msn, so i assume thats ok to quote

"The survey, spanning 160 countries and involving 70,000 people, showed 29 per cent selecting McLaren as their favourite team.

The result is a dramatic turnaround compared with the survey two years ago, when McLaren attracted only 21 per cent of the vote, and the arrival of the new world champion Lewis Hamilton must be credited.

It means Ferrari, previously F1's standout favourite among fans, dipped in popularity from its previous 30 per cent two years ago to 28 per cent in 2008.

The next two favourite teams were Williams and Renault, each polling 6 per cent."


so, even before the hamilton factor, mclaren and ferrari way way way out front of the rest, albeit the norm for ferrari to be ahead.


now, you were saying?


Sorry but the results of that survey mean nothing to me since I did not vote and didn't even heard of it. If this was never advertised on espn or speedtv, the two major sources for mtor racing information in the states I take it that the majority of f1 fans in the US did not participate.



#43 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:42

Sorry but the results of that survey mean nothing to me since I did not vote and didn't even heard of it. If this was never advertised on espn or speedtv, the two major sources for mtor racing information in the states I take it that the majority of f1 fans in the US did not participate.

You mean all six of them? How is the US even a relevant factor? :confused:


#44 BMW_F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:50

As an fyi the US has more racing fans than any other country in the world. There isn't another country in the world that has more racing series than the US. Now, my point is that if they did not adveritise the survey in the US what can you expect they did with the other countries in the world?

#45 Ricardo F1

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 20:57

As an fyi the US has more racing fans than any other country in the world. There isn't another country in the world that has more racing series than the US. Now, my point is that if they did not adveritise the survey in the US what can you expect they did with the other countries in the world?

F1 is irrelevant in the US compared with the rest of the World. It has loads of racing series, so what? It was an F1 survey, that makes the US irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Why do you need to advertise a survey - surveys aren't conducted via ads.


#46 nudger1964

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 21:03

Sorry but the results of that survey mean nothing to me since I did not vote and didn't even heard of it. If this was never advertised on espn or speedtv, the two major sources for mtor racing information in the states I take it that the majority of f1 fans in the US did not participate.

it was certainly discussed in speedtvs forums (while surevy still open), and the results were reported on the main site... i didnt hear about it before the results were published either...dont think that proves anything...fact is it was the largest glaobal survey ever taken...argue all you like, but thats the bottom line, and the source you were asking for

not being american i dont know, but i would think an american F1 fan may visit more websites than speed or espn to get their news on what is afterall a minority series in the states.

Edited by nudger1964, 31 July 2009 - 21:11.


#47 Demo.

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:32

no i dont think they will be making f1 engines at a loss...i think what i said, cosworth are a diverse company making many engines for many applications....they are not a company only making f1 engines for 3 teams...its about overheads costs and boring stuff like that


so in that case you think Cosworth can make a brand new engine from scratch and make a profit but Mercedes cannot continue to make engines that they make now for a profit.
your logic fails the maths test
Cosworth+development costs incurred to get a idea from brain to production+manufacture engines= profit
BUT
Mercedes+manufacture engine= loss according to you.
As you said of Mercedes HPE i cant see them making a profit just from selling engines
please make up your mind with Cosworth you clearly say they will make a profit off the engines with merc you say they will make a loss
despite MHPE having far lower costs due to already having all the molds development costs etc etc already paid for.

strange logic besides Daimler must think it makes a profit as they ended up buying the whole company and also divesting it of its other operations too.

Edited by Demo., 31 July 2009 - 22:36.


#48 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:43

Porsche...

They were with them before and Porsche has dropped hints that it is considering an F1 engine if conditions i.e. rules were stable... a McLaren Porsche would be a very interesting combo...

I want the Mac-Merc partnership to stay, but I like the sound of Mac-Porsche, another great German marque.

#49 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 22:48

Reality check, Porsche has 9-10 billions in debt currently and are about to be absorbed by VW.
Forget about Porsche coming to F1, it ain't gonna happen.


#50 JarnoA

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 23:20

Reality check, Porsche has 9-10 billions in debt currently and are about to be absorbed by VW.
Forget about Porsche coming to F1, it ain't gonna happen.


Hmm, you need to understand the complexity of the situation. Quatar are poised to take the VW options that are causing paper losses for Porsche. Remember that Porsche was also briefly the richest company in the world due to these options. Losses are not real, just as the profits that made it the biggest company in the world were not real. The reality remains that Porsche is one of the most profitable companies in the world. Porsche was set to take control of VAG, not the other way round.

In reality, Porsche is a profitable business, and VAG isn't. Quatar will remove the equation and Porsche will remain as a very profitable business and VAG a large company losing money. VAG will be bigger, and Porsche making more money. Wiedeking probably had ideas above his post in hindsite, but taking over VW was a possibility. If it worked. he would have gone down as the worlds best businessman.