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Mercedes still debating F1 involvement


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#51 DOF_power

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 23:31

Hmm, you need to understand the complexity of the situation. Quatar are poised to take the VW options that are causing paper losses for Porsche. Remember that Porsche was also briefly the richest company in the world due to these options. Losses are not real, just as the profits that made it the biggest company in the world were not real. The reality remains that Porsche is one of the most profitable companies in the world. Porsche was set to take control of VAG, not the other way round.

In reality, Porsche is a profitable business, and VAG isn't. Quatar will remove the equation and Porsche will remain as a very profitable business and VAG a large company losing money. VAG will be bigger, and Porsche making more money. Wiedeking probably had ideas above his post in hindsite, but taking over VW was a possibility. If it worked. he would have gone down as the worlds best businessman.




I know the complexity of the situation, and Quatar hasn't confirmed anything.
In reality Porsche has a lot of debt and will likely be absorbed into VW.


Both VW and Porsche said no F1.

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#52 pitflaps

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 23:57

which manufacturer ever made money - excluding any promotional uplift since I doubt anybody here would be able to calculate it - out of F1? Or do people mean, lose less?

#53 Ricardo F1

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 05:01

I know the complexity of the situation, and Quatar hasn't confirmed anything.
In reality Porsche has a lot of debt and will likely be absorbed into VW.

In reality Porsche has a lot of debt BECAUSE of VW and is getting "absorbed" into VW because of a family dispute - absolutely NOTHING to do with financial issues - as Porsche owns most of VW.


#54 Melbourne Park

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 09:17

In reality Porsche has a lot of debt BECAUSE of VW and is getting "absorbed" into VW because of a family dispute - absolutely NOTHING to do with financial issues - as Porsche owns most of VW.


That is more accurate. Porsche geared up to buy the State equity in VW shares. Their new debt was backed by new equity.

If the budget cap was in place, a company like Porsche would be well able to work out the returns from competing. And if they found it too difficult, they could still sell their team. Same too with MB.

Concerning the branding of MB and McLaren, I don't think it matters to MB. They might put up posters of the Brawn in dealerships or in Ads next year - who knows? Only the "fan" type of buyers would really be influenced by that IMO. Although one curious statistic, was that the huge increase in Silver coloured MB road cars, happened after the McLaren / MB engined car got the Silver treatment, and the change in buying characteristics was said to be much influenced by the race colour!

#55 Bouncing Pink Ball

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 10:27

I think I may have participated in that survey. It sounds familiar; was it the one advertised here? I'm not American, but I'm on the same continent. :D


I don't know, I've lived most of my in life in Canada and yet I still usually refer McLaren-Mercedes as just McLaren. Among the F1 fans I've spoken with here, that's how the team is known. Even though Mercedes has a substantial stake, I continue to think of them primarily as the teams engine (and KERS) supplier. I guess that's because the name McLaren has been around so long and carries lots of F1 history on its own.



#56 nudger1964

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 10:38

so in that case you think Cosworth can make a brand new engine from scratch and make a profit but Mercedes cannot continue to make engines that they make now for a profit.
your logic fails the maths test


my math dosnt fail. what they mean when they say it makes a profit is ofter the fixed costs that have been already allocated from the parent company as their operating budget, they are making money on selling the engines ie, they get extra money above their allocated budget from mercedes....that is entirely a different thing from suggesting the company can make money as a self financing company.
cosworth can do it becuae their f1 engine program needs to cover the additional operating costs it will bring to the company, it could not do it if the f1 engine program had to cover the entire costs as a stand alone f1 engine manufacturer...exactly the same reason mhpe couldnt

Edited by nudger1964, 01 August 2009 - 11:10.


#57 teewoods

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Posted 01 August 2009 - 17:19

I see it more like Ferrari/FIAT and Mercedes/Daimler.

McLaren is irrelevant, for many fans and sponsors it's just a MB sports brand.



Are you really this daft?

Edited by teewoods, 01 August 2009 - 17:20.


#58 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 03:43

Are you really this daft?


I think for most MB owners, he is correct. Put a MB2x on the wall of the showroom, a customer doesn't even need to see the three pointed star on the nosecone. And if the team gets accused of stealing IP, barely more than a grimace and a shoulder shrug from the parent about those rascals in F1 in that "McLaren" team ...

Incidentally, of the FOTA members, only BMW did not sign the new Concorde Agreement - so if MW is considering quitting F1, it would be their 2013 involvement that would be under consideration.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 02 August 2009 - 03:50.


#59 Demo.

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 04:05

my math dosnt fail. what they mean when they say it makes a profit is ofter the fixed costs that have been already allocated from the parent company as their operating budget, they are making money on selling the engines ie, they get extra money above their allocated budget from mercedes....that is entirely a different thing from suggesting the company can make money as a self financing company.
cosworth can do it becuae their f1 engine program needs to cover the additional operating costs it will bring to the company, it could not do it if the f1 engine program had to cover the entire costs as a stand alone f1 engine manufacturer...exactly the same reason mhpe couldnt


what ever way you want to try to twist it you need to accept a simple fact.
sales-cost=profit or loss
it does not matter where the money to start up comes from if sales are lower than costs you make a loss
the rest is just BS to try to get an incorrect point across.

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#60 bigginge

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 09:44

I think for most MB owners, he is correct. Put a MB2x on the wall of the showroom, a customer doesn't even need to see the three pointed star on the nosecone. And if the team gets accused of stealing IP, barely more than a grimace and a shoulder shrug from the parent about those rascals in F1 in that "McLaren" team ...

Incidentally, of the FOTA members, only BMW did not sign the new Concorde Agreement - so if MW is considering quitting F1, it would be their 2013 involvement that would be under consideration.


What's an MB2x?

And as has been mentioned many times before if Mercedes are considering leaving F1, the McLaren-Merecedes team (a seperate company) having signed the Concorde agreement means nothing.

#61 anbeck

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Posted 02 August 2009 - 13:56

And with many of the small teams, historically lasting no more then 2-3 seasons (and even that's a strech for most), I don't know how long will this sport survive.


That's the second time now I read somebody (you?) pointing out that "historically" small teams lasted only 2-3 seasons. Apparently you haven't followed F1 for a long time. Small teams, such as Lotus, Williams, Tyrrell, et al, historically have been the foundation of post-1950s manufacturer-less F1. Teams such as Jordan or Sauber would certainly still be around if it had not been the huge companies entering the sport (thoug one dealt more cleverly with the situation than the other). While I agree that I would be surprised to see Manor GP following a similar path, the FIA had some propositions by teams over the past years that might have had what it takes to follow the footsteps of Sir Frank Williams (Prodrive, and some other lower series winners).

As far as Mercedes is concerned: I would expect them to sell their McLaren shares, but deliver engines to McLaren, Brawn, Force India and maybe even Red Bull, so that they don't lose any money with their involvement and are pretty sure to have a car on the podium at each race.

a.

#62 Bi-Polar Bear

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 00:45

Silliness seems to abound here. McLaren has just signed the new Concorde Agreement. They are going NOWHERE until the end of the 2012 season. Whether Mercedes wishes to continue as their engine supplier is entirely up to MB. Engine manufacturers come and engine manufacturers endure. You only have to look at the history of McLaren to understand that.

As for the small teams lasting only a few seasons, there are examples of that, such as Stewart and Prost. There are also examples to the contrary, such as Williams, Tyrell, Rob Walker and several others. As usual, generalizations are useless and usually indicative of a lack of thought prior to posting. :kiss:

#63 Matt Somers

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 08:11

It would appear to be a none sense move to me for MB to pull out now. Big stake in McLaren who although have had a bad start to the season are pulling through now and are an integral part of F1. They are now able to supply 3 additional teams which means they can continue to supply Brawn, Force India and a one further team. I can't see that they were operating at too far from a profit when they just supplied McLaren so now they have 2 other teams and potentially a further team to supply for 2010. Mercedes are making theirselves an integral part of F1 so pulling out now would be ludicrous IMO.

#64 alg7_munif

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 16:03

There will always be elements within any auto board that question the strategy supported by the majority, and the argument will ebb and flow as the evidence changes.

In this case, a big reason why BMW pulled out was that they didn't win. Merc have won, and the last race result is very timely for Haug. So that argues for Merc to stay in for the time being.

But it is a total fallacy to think that budget limits will make the auto makers more inclined to stay in F1. Firms like BMW and Merc can justify their involvement only if they are winning. The best way to achieve that is to use their scale and resources as an advantage. If there is a level playing field, frozen engine designs, FIA favouritism towards small teams and Cosworth, then BMW and Merc lose their advantage and are less likely to win. So there's no point.

People forget that when Mosley and Ecclestone were operating in F1, it was Ferrari vs Cosworth. That's where we're heading now. Old men hanker after old times. And boy, are they old.

The right question is not Mercedes is leaving Formula 1 but leaving McLaren. Even when McLaren is not winning, Mercedes is still leading the championship with Brawn.

#65 Ricardo F1

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 19:02

The right question is not Mercedes is leaving Formula 1 but leaving McLaren. Even when McLaren is not winning, Mercedes is still leading the championship with Brawn.

Leaving McLaren is less likely than leaving F1.


#66 Pingguest

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 19:46

Technologies for sustainability and fuel efficiency have the future. As Formula 1 provides no room for the development of sustainable and fuel efficient technologies, the manufactures find it increasingly difficult to justify the costs for participation.

#67 JensonF1

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 20:18

Technologies for sustainability and fuel efficiency have the future. As Formula 1 provides no room for the development of sustainable and fuel efficient technologies, the manufactures find it increasingly difficult to justify the costs for participation.


Well, it started to do so until the manufacturers decided to drop KERS before they'd even begun to exploit the possibilities...

We could have had the electric car, the hydrogen vehicle and tons of other more sustainable forms of transport a long time before global warming was really an issue, but we didn't because the manufacturers are still happy selling their usual polluting shitcans at huge mark ups.

Edited by JensonF1, 03 August 2009 - 20:19.


#68 Pingguest

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 10:45

Well, it started to do so until the manufacturers decided to drop KERS before they'd even begun to exploit the possibilities...


For fuel efficiency and sustainability there are a number of solutions. Yet, the rules allow KERS as the only solution. However, the regulations are very restrictive making it very difficult to overcome the disadvantages of the system.

#69 big x

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 12:15

Sorry but the results of that survey mean nothing to me since I did not vote and didn't even heard of it. If this was never advertised on espn or speedtv, the two major sources for mtor racing information in the states I take it that the majority of f1 fans in the US did not participate.


It was in 'F1 racing' the Worlds biggest selling Grand Prix magazine.




#70 ForMules

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 16:26

The right question is not Mercedes is leaving Formula 1 but leaving McLaren. Even when McLaren is not winning, Mercedes is still leading the championship with Brawn.


:rotfl: :rotfl:

times changing quickly, Brawn cheats were accepted by the FIA, and the Kers mess too!