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'Motor Sport' magazine


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#1651 Vitesse2

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 14:10

Originally posted by ensign14

There you go, it's Bliar's fault (again) through over-interpretation of a Fourth Reich diktat.

I think that's a slightly balder statement of what I said ....;)

Although I'd be interested to learn what "case law" Mr Hughes is referring to. AFAIK there have been no prosecutions under the Act.

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#1652 ensign14

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 14:19

Nor me, but two cases - European Commission (supported by the United Kingdom, intervening) v France (Case C-262/02) and Bacardi France SAS v Télévision Française 1 SA (TF1) and others (Case C-429/02) heard together in the European Court - dealt with similar problems over alcohol adverts. That held that background adverts in live broadcasts were OK, if it were not feasible to mask them, despite the absolute prohibition under French law.

And there is R (on the application of British American Tobacco and others) v Secretary of State for Health ([2004] EWHC 2493) trying to stop the implementation of the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002 as being a step too far, but the Court was more or less forced to decide that Bliar can more or less dictate what laws he wants.

#1653 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 14:38

Is "Court was more or less forced to decide that Bliar can more or less dictate what laws he wants" a direct quote from the judgement?

#1654 ensign14

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 14:49

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Is "Court was more or less forced to decide that Bliar can more or less dictate what laws he wants" a direct quote from the judgement?

It was the ratio decidendi.

#1655 David Lawson

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 15:10

Originally posted by ian senior
On the shelves here in the UK this morning. for those who have discussed this before, a feature by Brian Sewell on historic motor racing posters.


What a shame this feature is there purely to promote a gallery's advert on the next page.

David

#1656 Alan Cox

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 15:46

Interesting stuff on tobacco advertising - presumably photos of those guys running John Player Specials and Marlboro-sponsored McLarens in TGP will never appear in print, even if they were to be race winners.

#1657 Sharman

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 15:59

You will note of course that Mr Blair, and a lot of the rest bunch of self-servers (of whatever political persuasion) in Parliament are professional liars (it's also interesting that a great number are also lawyers). Life for the rest of us is governed by their interests, it is never a question of what is sensible, it is "what can get me re-elected to protect all my benefits". While the censoring of an historical document takes now place on the front cover of a magazine, how long will it be before it slips over into political history? It already takes place in a number of countries, Japan for example. Freedom of the press is essential, I may sneer at some of the rubbish printed but I can look elsewhere to get a balanced picture

#1658 Barry Boor

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 19:21

Subscription not yet cancelled - I just haven't had time to get into Bangor in the last month!

Today's issue..... bitty to say the least. Lots of one or two page articles about nothing particularly interesting (to me, that is.) Phil Hill tells his story in a very small number of pages.

Then, the last double page b&w picture is very good. However, the description is poor. It gives the impression that Taylor and Trintignant collided at Rouen on the last lap. This is wrong, of course. They collided AFTER the chequered flag and due to the incompetence and thoughtlessness of the Gendarmerie. I would have thought that might have been explained.

And why do they insist on changine font colours half way through a sentence?????

I know, I know, I'm just a moaning old nit-picker!

SUBSCRIBE TO VINTAGE RACECAR!!!!!!

#1659 Mark A

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 19:33

Originally posted by David Lawson


What a shame this feature is there purely to promote a gallery's advert on the next page.

David


This is something in Motorsport now that is very annoying, and blatently obvious!



On the subject of Tobacco advertising, I was staying at the Dorint at Nuerburgring and there is always the latest copy of Auto Motor Und Sport in the room and they had a full page colour advert for west cigarettes (looks really strange to see people posing with cigs) on the inside rear cover, so how does this meet the new directive?

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#1660 David Beard

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 19:36

Originally posted by Barry Boor


SUBSCRIBE TO VINTAGE RACECAR!!!!!!


And get an editorial that suggests that Jack Brabham won the Indy 500 in his Cooper, and the same Mike Lawrence article 2 months running.

And the magazine title....Vintage? Racecar? Not aimed at the UK, is it!

Otherwise, of course...it's excellent. :)

#1661 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 19:37

Originally posted by Sharman
You will note of course that Mr Blair, and a lot of the rest bunch of self-servers (of whatever political persuasion) in Parliament are professional liars (it's also interesting that a great number are also lawyers). Life for the rest of us is governed by their interests, it is never a question of what is sensible, it is "what can get me re-elected to protect all my benefits". While the censoring of an historical document takes now place on the front cover of a magazine, how long will it be before it slips over into political history? It already takes place in a number of countries, Japan for example. Freedom of the press is essential, I may sneer at some of the rubbish printed but I can look elsewhere to get a balanced picture

What a load of tosh!

I am completely in favour of stopping tobacco companies marketing their cancer sticks to children so I am in favour of a ban on tobacco advertising. To suggest that such a ban is an infingement on the freedom of the press is one of the most absurd arguments I have yet heard on this board.

MS, or its lawyers, have chosen to interprete the legislation as meaning that an advert for JPS on the front cover of a magazine is now banned. Fine. So be it. Rather we have to actually expend energy opening the magazine than yet more children run any risk of becoming smokers. Smoking kills people. Opening magazines does not.

TNF is no place for political vents. I have no greater regard for Tony Blair than the next man but to twist this episode into the nonsense above makes me recall Norm's question to his drinking buddy: "What colour is the sky in your world Cliff".

Now can somebody please delete this post as it's bound to have broken several rules and censorship is therefore completely warranted. But please take some of the above guff with it.

Allen

#1662 Bob Riebe

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 19:55

Originally posted by Allen Brown
What a load of tosh!

I am completely in favour of stopping tobacco companies marketing their cancer sticks to children so I am in favour of a ban on tobacco advertising. To suggest that such a ban is an infingement on the freedom of the press is one of the most absurd arguments I have yet heard on this board.

MS, or its lawyers, have chosen to interprete the legislation as meaning that an advert for JPS on the front cover of a magazine is now banned. Fine. So be it. Rather we have to actually expend energy opening the magazine than yet more children run any risk of becoming smokers. Smoking kills people. Opening magazines does not.

TNF is no place for political vents. I have no greater regard for Tony Blair than the next man but to twist this episode into the nonsense above makes me recall Norm's question to his drinking buddy: "What colour is the sky in your world Cliff".

Now can somebody please delete this post as it's bound to have broken several rules and censorship is therefore completely warranted. But please take some of the above guff with it.-Allen

Ah yes, pick and choose your devil, then have the government ban it.
My devil, is more important than your'e devil...there was a book about 1984 or something....
Bob

#1663 petefenelon

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 20:32

Originally posted by ian senior
On the shelves here in the UK this morning. Had a very quick look and there appears to be a decentish article on Phil Hill, but more remarkably, for those who have discussed this before, a feature by Brian Sewell on historic motor racing posters. Might actually part with some cash this month. Some hilarity on seeing the "expensive toys" page showing a watch costing in excess of 170,000 Euros.


On the shelves at WH Smith in Leeds station. Subscription copy in my hands yet? No chance.... :(

#1664 Roger Clark

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 20:37

Thank you Allen.

Some things are more important than motor racing.

However, TNF is not the place to discuss them.

#1665 David Beard

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 20:39

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Thank you Allen.

Some things are more important than motor racing.

However, TNF is not the place to discuss them.


Roger...so well put.

#1666 bill patterson

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:07

Surprise! Surprise!

My subscription copy has landed. Comment on standard awaited..........

#1667 petefenelon

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:39

Originally posted by bill patterson
Surprise! Surprise!

My subscription copy has landed. Comment on standard awaited..........


Likewise, and it could be the best since the green relaunch on the basis of a quick flick this morning.

#1668 ian senior

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:45

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Interesting stuff on tobacco advertising - presumably photos of those guys running John Player Specials and Marlboro-sponsored McLarens in TGP will never appear in print, even if they were to be race winners.


Could they sneakily get round the ban by some slight tampering with the writing and logos - eg - put "Marlburo" or "JRS" instead of the real thing? Or would they say this would be too close to the proper advertisement?

#1669 ensign14

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:52

I still say it's not against the law as it's not sponsorship. MotorSport is not being paid to run these alleged adverts. It's more governmental attempts to rewrite history. Next they'll be passing laws against cars as they pollute.

#1670 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:56

And I still say this is not the place for politics.

#1671 Twin Window

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:57

Can we knock the moral/ethical/political debate on the head, please? If anyone wants to continue in that vein, please take it to the Paddock Club.

Thanks.

#1672 Mallory Dan

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 12:54

V quick flick thru' mine last night, I noted Stuck jumping at the Ring in an F1 March, its says 741, looked like a 761 to me...

#1673 Twin Window

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 13:07

Is it orange, Dan?

Edit: stupid question, as his car was orange in '74 and '76...

#1674 2F-001

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 13:16

No, it's in Jagermeister livery.

In view of your edit...
read: yes, it's orange - Jagermeister livery.

(Twinny originally asked if it was white - on balance, ignore this... the car is orange whether a stupid question or not!)

#1675 Twin Window

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 13:26

Sorry about that! Had a bit of a CRAFT moment... :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure he carried Jaegermeister in both 1974 and 1976, but I can't remember about 1975. I guess logically he ran it then too.

Hey-ho...

#1676 2F-001

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 13:33

In the pic in question, the car has the much more extended splitter ahead of the nose, with the little angled supporting rods either side. I associate that set-up more with post-74, so Dan may be right. No suprise there then.


re: a 'CRAFT' moment... is this an acronym that has passed me by, or is the Chris of that ilk known for some particular muddlesome episode (that has also passed me by)?
Have a snifter of Jagermeister - that'll sort you out...

#1677 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 13:53

Originally posted by 2F-001


re: a 'CRAFT' moment... is this an acronym that has passed me by ...


Can't remember a f---ing thing! :p

#1678 Twin Window

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 14:01

That's the one!

#1679 2F-001

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 14:02

Ah, yes; I'd forgotten that one...

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#1680 PeterElleray

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 15:39

definately 1976, the car has the low line airbox, 761 cockpit surround and nose, although, as we know, that tub could easily be from an earlier car/year - must check on Allan's site.

#1681 Spaceframe

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 15:47

Originally posted by Twin Window
Sorry about that! Had a bit of a CRAFT moment... :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure he carried Jaegermeister in both 1974 and 1976, but I can't remember about 1975. I guess logically he ran it then too.

Hey-ho...

No, Stuck's car was in Lavazza colours (white with a bit of red) for the 1975 German GP.

#1682 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 20:25

Originally posted by 2F-001
Ah, yes; I'd forgotten that one...

:lol: :up:

#1683 RA Historian

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 03:06

Originally posted by Flemming

Hi

I read all the comments with interest. Motorsport is a good magazine in my opinion - but there will naturally be issues with lesser interest and issues that stands out.


Geeeez....

I get a headache reading all the diatribes, venom, venting, ill will, insults, so on and so on about MS. Hey, it's just a magazine! Not only that, it is one of the few left. What are you trying to do, destroy it? So what if it has an airbrushed cover. That's just the way things are these days. Live with it.

So you complain that you don't have your current copy yet. Hey, they come once a month, and I accept that. Two days ago I got the one with Emmo on the cover. I get mine around the first of each month, and it is a few weeks behind the UK delivery. Well, I'm across the pond, and as long as I get one a month I am fine with it. If MS was a news magazine, that it one that prints reports on current racing (not historic), that would be a different matter. But it is not Autosport, so there is not an urgency to get it right now. It does not have a time element to it due to its very nature. Further, anything put into the mail is at the mercy of the postal system. They work at their pace, and I am afraid there is not a blasted thing that can be done about that. Ya just gotta accept that!

Frankly, it is my favorite mag. I enjoy each and every issue. As the chap above said, there will be issues with lesser interest and issues that stand out. Not every article in the mag appeals to me. I have no interest in rallying, so I skip those articles. I do not see much relevance in who finished third in a Formula Ford race at Oulton Park, so I skip that. But the articles on racing cars and drivers whom I admired from afar in my youth, I devour them. For what we are looking quite frankly there is not much left compared to a number of years agol The internet has revolutionized journalism, and as time goes by print media will continue to dwindle. This is what we have, so enjoy it for what it is; the alternatives are just not there anymore.

I may be way off your wave length; maybe if I was in the UK I might be getting as lathered up as you about it, but from my perspective on the US side of the pond Ihave few choices, MS is very good, I enjoy it and I guess that I just don't see the point in blasting every thing about it.

Now, if we start talking about the precipitous decline of Road & Track, that is another matter!

Cheers!

#1684 john aston

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 06:38

I received my copy , flicked through it and heart sank. Dreadful layout, bite size factoids about irrelevancies like watches and , my usual gripe, hardly any text.Lots of pictures but I buy mags to read.Sure , articles need illustration but the ratio seems to be 80% picture to 20% text.What a missed opportunity the Stuck piece was- outspoken ,hugely experienced driver who must have a wealth of stories to share so what do we get- 2 or 3 sentences to accompany some piccies ... Not good enough, sorry.

#1685 Even Darker

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 06:53

I may be way off your wave length; maybe if I was in the UK I might be getting as lathered up as you about it, but from my perspective on the US side of the pond Ihave few choices, MS is very good, I enjoy it and I guess that I just don't see the point in blasting every thing about it.


I think for many in the UK Motor Sport represents something iconic that is at the heart of why we visit the Nostalgia Forum.

Forty years ago I used to go out to the caravan behind my grandfathers house and read his collection of old Motor Sport magazines. (I wish I had them now!)

I'm sure many others have even longer connections with the magazine.

I agree that some of the minor carping appears over the top, but we wouldn't bother complaining if it didn't mean so much to us.

#1686 RA Historian

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 13:45

Originally posted by Even Darker

I think for many in the UK Motor Sport represents something iconic that is at the heart of why we visit the Nostalgia Forum.

Forty years ago I used to go out to the caravan behind my grandfathers house and read his collection of old Motor Sport magazines. (I wish I had them now!)

I'm sure many others have even longer connections with the magazine.

I agree that some of the minor carping appears over the top, but we wouldn't bother complaining if it didn't mean so much to us.


That makes sense to me. I understand your point. As someone who grew up in the late 1950s reading Road & Track ( and who has every issue for 50 years) I am very disappointed in the decline of that magazine over the last 10-15 years and let them know in a pointed e mail about once a year. So, yes, I believe I see where you are coming from.

Maybe we should all get together and start our own! (Anyone with a LOT of money out there?)

#1687 David Beard

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 16:32

Originally posted by RA Historian


Maybe we should all get together and start our own! (Anyone with a LOT of money out there?)


Then we will have to start a new motor racing history forum in which we can moan about its late delivery, font style, photos that are too large, articles that are too short..... :rolleyes:

#1688 RA Historian

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 19:01

Originally posted by David Beard


Then we will have to start a new motor racing history forum in which we can moan about its late delivery, font style, photos that are too large, articles that are too short..... :rolleyes:


Yes, ain't that the truth!

#1689 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 07 October 2006 - 20:31

Now, if we start talking about the precipitous decline of Road & Track, that is another matter!


That worthless rag has been dead for so long that it is almost difficult to realize that it was once worth reading versus being an utter waste of cellulose.

#1690 sterling49

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 21:28

Originally posted by RA Historian


That makes sense to me. I understand your point. As someone who grew up in the late 1950s reading Road & Track ( and who has every issue for 50 years) I am very disappointed in the decline of that magazine over the last 10-15 years and let them know in a pointed e mail about once a year. So, yes, I believe I see where you are coming from.

Maybe we should all get together and start our own! (Anyone with a LOT of money out there?)


Bravo! My sentiments entirely, I periodically bought Road & Track in the '60's, always bought Motorsport, Motoring News and Autosport, and sometimes Motor and The Autocar, however, I cannot abide MN or Autosport anymore, forget the editorial copy, just the format and layout are enough to put me off! Call me churlish, but even Motor magazine only has real interest in testing high powered cars.....no 1 litre hatchbacks for them only the latest Beemer 540........, but lots of families have smaller cars as practical 2nd vehicle for the school run/shopping trolley. Maybe I am just jealous of the job they have, but as the older "experienced" guys retire, we get the gelled hair brigade with all of their digital attachments...... ):

#1691 Alan Cox

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 21:38

Originally posted by sterling49

Bravo! My sentiments entirely, I periodically bought Road & Track in the '60's, always bought Motorsport, Motoring News and Autosport, and sometimes Motor and The Autocar, however, I cannot abide MN or Autosport anymore, forget the editorial copy, just the format and layout are enough to put me off! Call me churlish, but even Motor magazine only has real interest in testing high powered cars.....no 1 litre hatchbacks for them only the latest Beemer 540........, but lots of families have smaller cars as practical 2nd vehicle for the school run/shopping trolley. Maybe I am just jealous of the job they have, but as the older "experienced" guys retire, we get the gelled hair brigade with all of their digital attachments......




Hear, hear.

#1692 Keir

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Posted 10 October 2006 - 13:54

Road & Track - It once was my bible ...... now, well ..... it isn't !

#1693 Mallory Dan

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 12:21

Originally posted by john aston
I received my copy , flicked through it and heart sank. Dreadful layout, bite size factoids about irrelevancies like watches and , my usual gripe, hardly any text.Lots of pictures but I buy mags to read.Sure , articles need illustration but the ratio seems to be 80% picture to 20% text.What a missed opportunity the Stuck piece was- outspoken ,hugely experienced driver who must have a wealth of stories to share so what do we get- 2 or 3 sentences to accompany some piccies ... Not good enough, sorry.


I regret I agree with John. I thought the Palmer article was potentially excellent, but like the Stuck one, way too short.

JP was really 'my era', ie c1975-85, so was looking forward to some good recent history. Instead we got what time he gets to work, what he had for lunch, and how he knows the names of the girls at the Kentagon...

No mention of the Lloyd 956 days, working with Dick Bennetts, the Marcos, how he got on with Ron T or Sir Frank W. A massive missed opportunity.

I thought the 312PB article was wasted too. The author (Gordon Cruickshank?) seems to have bought fully into the Ferrari-hype. The car was IMHO, unreliable in 71, beat very little in 72, and then comprehensively blown off by the Matras in 73. The great man then took his sportscar bat home. Oh and he avoided the only race in 72 he was likely to lose...

Back on MS, I'm sorry to say my sub is not being renewed.

#1694 ghinzani

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 13:21

I'd cut them some slack here though as he is an immensely boring and self-obsessed man so making him sound interesting must be some feat. Now if they had decided to investigate all his crooked deals a la the News of the World or something, that would be a real eye opener.

#1695 Mallory Dan

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 15:01

Originally posted by ghinzani
I'd cut them some slack here though as he is an immensely boring and self-obsessed man so making him sound interesting must be some feat. Now if they had decided to investigate all his crooked deals a la the News of the World or something, that would be a real eye opener.


Sounds intriguing Ghinzy, can you tell us more. I presume you mean JP, and not Stucky?

#1696 ian senior

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 15:03

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Sounds intriguing Ghinzy, can you tell us more. I presume you mean JP, and not Stucky?


No way is it Stuck, you could never describe him as boring.

#1697 ghinzani

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 20:33

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Sounds intriguing Ghinzy, can you tell us more. I presume you mean JP, and not Stucky?


I cant, he's a libellous swine with no sense of humour, thats why I was vague. Sorry.

#1698 ensign14

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 20:45

Except that a man who has been convicted of causing death by dangerous driving (or whatever the Portuguese equivalent is) does not arguably have a reputation that is worth anything in libel damages.

#1699 Roger Clark

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 23:11

Originally posted by Mallory Dan



I thought the 312PB article was wasted too. The author (Gordon Cruickshank?) seems to have bought fully into the Ferrari-hype. The car was IMHO, unreliable in 71, beat very little in 72, and then comprehensively blown off by the Matras in 73. The great man then took his sportscar bat home. Oh and he avoided the only race in 72 he was likely to lose...

Comprehensively blown off? Do you really think so?

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#1700 Fiorentina 1

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 01:34

Road and Track is getting a lot better. They are trying to bring it to European standards (Sport Auto, etc) with their comparison tests and stories (24 Hours Nurburgring, Poesche Cup etc). It's still not as good as Evo, but it's better then say Car & Driver and Automobile.