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#1901 sterling49

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 14:52

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


MS will have to wait, probably until after the Dennis Munday/Paul Weller book is finished too !


:up: I have still got "Inside Out" and numerous others....the Holidays should be extended...what say you?;)

Sterling

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#1902 bradbury west

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 15:54

Surely someone has a good word to say for Motor Sport? They seem to have listened, and they certainly seem to be giving it a good shot. It is inevitable that some of the articles, ignoring errors, will not appeal to everyone. Simon Taylor's piece with de Cadenet was very good, and maintaining the appropriate length, ( we need one now with Chris Craft.... and what about overseas racers, entrants, sponsors, promoters etc?)

They really seem to be aiming to interest a broad church of readership, which must be progress.

Roger Lund..

#1903 James Page

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 16:53

I agree, Roger. The newly extended Simon Taylor pieces are always good, and the short Roebuck article about Le Mans contained stuff I'd never read before - which is rare these days purely because I've read so much of his stuff.

The Peter Collins bit by WB was incredibly dull, as has been said here before - but nothing of his has ever really grabbed me. "So-and-so won at 110mph. At Silverstone, someone else won at 92mph, blah blah blah."

Haven't delved into the Rondeau or Bentley Boys articles yet, but will do soon. I think they're actually doing a reasonable job at the moment.

#1904 jph

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 17:15

Absolutely agree with the last couple of posts by Roger and James. One of my New Year wishes for 2007 would be for this thread to be locked: I find it generally so petty and infuriating that I don't know why I feel the compulsion even to look at it, let alone post on it! If it can't be locked, at least for the 'Whole magazine is rubbish because (a) I've found a mistake / (b) I don't find some of the articles particularly interesting / © I know more than they do / (d) they should disregard laws I don't agree with' types of post to reduce in number.

#1905 RA Historian

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 20:10

Originally posted by jph
Absolutely agree with the last couple of posts by Roger and James. One of my New Year wishes for 2007 would be for this thread to be locked: I find it generally so petty and infuriating that I don't know why I feel the compulsion even to look at it, let alone post on it! If it can't be locked, at least for the 'Whole magazine is rubbish because (a) I've found a mistake / (b) I don't find some of the articles particularly interesting / © I know more than they do / (d) they should disregard laws I don't agree with' types of post to reduce in number.

Bravo! Well said!! :up: :up:

#1906 Maldwyn

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 08:21

Rather than closing the thread perhaps this is the time to be more positive about the magazine. We've had the campaign to return to green, and the publishers duly obliged, but other than that was there much wrong? Obviously people want different things, and perhaps the knowledgeable historians want greater depth than the general enthusiasts, so to some degree the publishers will never "win".

Still, would we want to see Motor Sport disappear?

#1907 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:16

I am so pleased to read the last five posts here. I am glad Motor Sport is still in business and doing its best to serve a wide audience. We should give them our support.

Happy New Year

Allen

#1908 ensign14

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:23

Originally posted by jph
Absolutely agree with the last couple of posts by Roger and James.

Me too, especially the stuff on De Cad which came up not long after he came up on here. Nice to see that an article series on Le Mans did not concentrate on the obvious. They're definitely delving into the more quirky areas of the sport - if I had criticism on those bits it would be for more text...

#1909 petefenelon

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 15:37

I think MS is about as good as it's going to get, in terms of content and style. It isn't the magazine most of us would like, but at least it's a viable magazine, and the 'green' issues seem to have settled into a fairly consistent level. The best articles are still excellent, the worst ones still diabolical, and on balance I'd rather have the magazine around than not.

I accept that some of its focus has been diluted with the attention to contemporary historic racing and on 'lifestyle' and the historics trade; but the core historic material is still the meat of the magazine and is often done very well.

I'd prefer more words, less pictures, less glitz and more real history, but I think we've thrashed this out so many times - the economics of it aren't viable so we might as well settle for what we've got and just praise what's good about MS and try to stop them making the same mistakes over and over again.

As for the 'doctored' fagless cover illustrations, it might be nice to send out 'real' photos to subscribers and to use doctored ones for the retail trade, but doing two covers would probably be horrifically expensive. Blame Colin Chapman ;)

#1910 D-Type

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 18:05

I agree with the sentiment that Motor Sport in its present incarnation is better than no Motor Sport. I consider it a better read than either Octane or Classic and Sports Car. I accept the market it is targeted at has changed. Etc. etc. But...

...it could be far better with very little effort. Whilst I can accept the odd typo or memory lapse I do object to the errors of fact that plague it. For example, the Peter Collins article is riddled with errors and only the major ones have been listed here. It reads as if some hack has had a chat with the Bod and then tried to decipher his handwritten notes without any references to hand. It could seriously distort an uninformed person as to history. Such inaccuracies are unforgiveable. :mad:

I find it sad that many threads on this forum people ask "Was it the case that ... ?" and the reply is "Motor Sport said ..." which is usually taken as confirmation of the facts. Nowadays the question is "Motor Sport said ... Is it the case?" and the answer is very often: "No it is not the case because ...". The accuracy culture of Messrs. Boddy and Jenkinson and their immediate successors has been progressively eroded over the years.

#1911 sterling49

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 22:09

Originally posted by D-Type
I agree with the sentiment that Motor Sport in its present incarnation is better than no Motor Sport. I consider it a better read than either Octane or Classic and Sports Car. I accept the market it is targeted at has changed. Etc. etc. But...

Agree with the points that you make, having 1st taken MS as a 13 year old, I got used to the style, but would much prefer to have it (particularly with Green Cover) than not at all. I look at both the other two named publications ocassionally, but not enough to buy them (newstand browser :rolleyes: )

Sterling

#1912 simon drabble

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 13:33

Motorsport is the one I keep (I have back to 1965 even though I was only three then!) but Octane is a good magazine and has some very good regular columns (Nick Mason and now Tony Dron are two that come to mind) this months article on Don Shead's Allard (now sold by Adrian Hamilton) was very good - pity they didnt concentrate more on teh restoration after Don's big accident because it was the most incredible rebuild taking over 2 years and the finished article is like new (but more importantly using the original body and chassis).
I have only flicked through this months Motorsport but I look forward to reading it at length and celebrate its return to form! If you reread the copies from the 60's they are actually pretty dull!

#1913 bradbury west

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 16:18

Originally posted by simon drabble
Motorsport is the one I keep (I have back to 1965 even though I was only three then!) but Octane is a good magazine and has some very good regular columns (Nick Mason and now Tony Dron are two that come to mind) this months article on Don Shead's Allard (now sold by Adrian Hamilton) was very good - pity they didnt concentrate more on teh restoration after Don's big accident because it was the most incredible rebuild taking over 2 years and the finished article is like new (but more importantly using the original body and chassis).

I have only flicked through this months Motorsport but I look forward to reading it at length and celebrate its return to form! If you reread the copies from the 60's they are actually pretty dull!


Simon, It appears that I am like yourself, one of a minority who sees virtue in the Octane publication, taking the good with the bad, albeit perhaps more in hope than expectation.

However, I feel that your last line displays an attribute with which we are all blessed, namely 20:20 hindsight. The world was a different place in those days so comparisons are not only odious, but totally without purpose.

Your admission that in '65 you were only 3 years old clearly means that you are not in a position to understand just what MS represented in those days, and I feel that that has been more than well enough documented on this thread. It was OF its time, and it was THE definitive example, certainly over here, of the genre, hence the near fanaticism with which the old version has been revered.

As they say, no offence intended, but I felt comment was warranted.

Roger Lund.

#1914 simon drabble

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 17:01

none taken - the fact that I have them at home neatly staked up shows I understand their relevance and I do use them as a form of reference and when I read the small ads become very depressed that as a 3 year old I didnt possess better vision and didnt fill my boots with 0-10 year old sports racers!!
I consider my purchase of them one of my better Ebay transactions!

#1915 sterling49

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 18:56

Originally posted by simon drabble
Motorsport is the one I keep (I have back to 1965 even though I was only three then!)


Let us know if you want a good home for them please Simon :cat:

#1916 john aston

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 20:03

I may have had a moan about the doctored pictures but it is still the magazine I most look forward to reading.I was around as a youthful enthusiast in the late sixties and whilst I grew to appreciate MS it was terribly staid .I loved the DSJ stuff - and I was lucky enough to have met the great man to tell him as such many years later- but al ot of the editorial was SO dull.I far preferred the gonzo iconoclasm of Car - the reportage by such luminaries as Setright and Manney - as well as one S Moss was terrifuc and pulled no punches in those more deferential times.Octane is superficial tosh - bought a couple and did not enjoy them one jot as my attention spean excees that of atypical goldfish, I do not covet silly watches and I prefer words to pictures.Shame that Car plummeted to unfathomed depths in the mid nineties - and is still in freefall - what a ghastly triumph of style over substance it is...

#1917 Racer.Demon

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 08:33

As a slight tangent - are there any other TNFers who have ordered the 2007 Motor Sport calendar and are yet to receive it?

I ordered it early-December when the offer finally got through with the late December issue, and they already have their money as the creditcard payment was completed weeks ago. But nothing in the mail yet.

Or does this simply fall in line with the traditional late dispatch of Motor Sport on the continent?

#1918 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 16:29

Okay, a change of course and a new tack on this....

If I were the -- or an -- editor of Motor Sport, I would certainly listen to this forum and use it as a means to measure the pulse of at least a part of my corps -- if not the core, so to speak -- of readers.

Indeed, keeping fully in mind my misgivings about the tie-in with Autosport, were I the editor I would have long ago brokered an arrangement so that this would be "The Motor Sport Forum." And, you betcha believe I would shamelessly use it as a source of inspiration and also use it as a way to fnd new talent. Cheap. But, also Good.

I do think that the lads have something on the ball and are fully capable of producing a good magazine.

I have not seen an issue of Motor Sport since the new folks decided to cut off my complimentary issue last Fall which was sent here to the desert by the former publisher -- not exactly the best way to win me over to their camp, so I am a bit in the dark as to what is inside the recent issues.

#1919 E.B.

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 16:36

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I am a bit in the dark as to what is inside the recent issues.


So are its subscribers, by the sound of it.

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#1920 petefenelon

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:08

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Okay, a change of course and a new tack on this....

If I were the -- or an -- editor of Motor Sport, I would certainly listen to this forum and use it as a means to measure the pulse of at least a part of my corps -- if not the core, so to speak -- of readers.

Indeed, keeping fully in mind my misgivings about the tie-in with Autosport, were I the editor I would have long ago brokered an arrangement so that this would be "The Motor Sport Forum." And, you betcha believe I would shamelessly use it as a source of inspiration and also use it as a way to fnd new talent. Cheap. But, also Good.

I do think that the lads have something on the ball and are fully capable of producing a good magazine.

I have not seen an issue of Motor Sport since the new folks decided to cut off my complimentary issue last Fall which was sent here to the desert by the former publisher -- not exactly the best way to win me over to their camp, so I am a bit in the dark as to what is inside the recent issues.



The trouble is, the kind of magazine this forum would want would end up being a small-circulation, subscription-only, research-heavy, high-cost mag that wouldn't attract the coffee-table customers who take note of the ads. No "Top 100s". No more than one Clark/Senna/Fangio/Moss article every six months. Much-reduced coverage of the contemporary historic scene. More words. FAR more words.

All of the above would mean a smaller circulation, fewer ads, the cost would shoot up, and the circulation would go down even further... It would be financial suicide for Stratfield, I suspect - MS would need a sugar-daddy who regarded it as a personal indulgence if it became the kind of magazine that the hardcore here would really like. I think we just have to accept that the market's moved on :(

I agree it'd be great if MS became the kind of magazine 'we' want - but in becoming that it would, I think, implode.

#1921 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:35

Damn, Pete, I try to be nice and....

#1922 PRD

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:50

Originally posted by john aston
I may have had a moan about the doctored pictures but it is still the magazine I most look forward to reading.I was around as a youthful enthusiast in the late sixties and whilst I grew to appreciate MS it was terribly staid .I loved the DSJ stuff - and I was lucky enough to have met the great man to tell him as such many years later- but al ot of the editorial was SO dull.I far preferred the gonzo iconoclasm of Car - the reportage by such luminaries as Setright and Manney - as well as one S Moss was terrifuc and pulled no punches in those more deferential times.Octane is superficial tosh - bought a couple and did not enjoy them one jot as my attention spean excees that of atypical goldfish, I do not covet silly watches and I prefer words to pictures.Shame that Car plummeted to unfathomed depths in the mid nineties - and is still in freefall - what a ghastly triumph of style over substance it is...


Evo is the best magazine covering the moderns. Car is dull.

#1923 PRD

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:56

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Damn, Pete, I try to be nice and....



You're both correct though. This forum would be an excellent source of ideas and information which MS could use and develop, but to totally satisfy the people here and the mass market would be a very difficult juggling act.

#1924 PRD

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 18:57

Originally posted by PRD


Evo is the best magazine covering the moderns. Car is dull.


and Top Gear is ghastly :(

#1925 David Beard

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:19

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Okay, a change of course and a new tack on this....

If I were the -- or an -- editor of Motor Sport,


It would be full of nothing but stuff from the American backwater.....;)

#1926 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:20

Originally posted by PRD
You're both correct though. This forum would be an excellent source of ideas and information which MS could use and develop, but to totally satisfy the people here and the mass market would be a very difficult juggling act.


I have often wondered about that remark on "satisfying" people. It seems that the best examples of writing, painitng, music, what have you found in the arts tend to be those done by folks who would just damned well follow their own instincts, their own inner voice, march to their own music. Just like a certain correspondent of Motor Sport once did.

Motor Sport will never remotely be mass market in this day and age. Trying to do so means it has ends up having no true edge, no soul, no point of view, no moxie, no inner music. As we say in my business, better to march to the sound of the guns and die facing the enemy than shovel shit in Louisiana.

Or something like that.

#1927 David Beard

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:22

Originally posted by petefenelon

I agree it'd be great if MS became the kind of magazine 'we' want - but in becoming that it would, I think, implode.


And yet all those magazines on chuffer trains seem to manage to survive?

#1928 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:27

Originally posted by David Beard
It would be full of nothing but stuff from the American backwater.....;)


....which would be infinitely better and more interesting than the usual Yuropean bilge.




Of course, I am also fully capable of writing that Yuro bilge as well. And damned good Yuro bilge it would be, by golly. ;)

#1929 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 11 January 2007 - 20:29

Originally posted by David Beard
And yet all those magazines on chuffer trains seem to manage to survive?


Which is why I think all the hand-wringing and whining about being afraid of its true audience is nonsense and baloney.

#1930 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 00:14

Chaps you're much closer to Haymarkets HQ than we are so why don't one of you go down there and march around with a sign..."No more American backwater"...

What is happening here?

Do we need the UN? They're currently not too busy.

BTW, we just got Beckham, what do we do with him? Put him in the movies or Info-commercials?

Just kiddin'...$250M US deal...are the Spice Girls included?

#1931 David Beard

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 03:43

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Chaps you're much closer to Haymarkets HQ than we are so why don't one of you go down there and march around with a sign..."No more American backwater"...

What is happening here?


David, I was careful to include a ;) .......

#1932 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:33

No point marching around Haymarket HQ. Motor Sport is now wholly owned by Stratfield.




---------------------



Welsh Motor Sport History

#1933 bradbury west

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 11:46

How many of you have actually taken the trouble to ring MS and speak to the Editor or Ed staff, but constructively.? They are very accessible and good listeners.

RL

#1934 LOTI

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 12:03

I just sent them an e mail but thought I would put one here as well. Just pointing out that in the 60s photographs item the photograph of Nina Rindt is wrongly captioned Sally Courage.
Loti

#1935 James Page

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 12:46

I glanced at that picture, Loti, and can remember thinking that it didn't look much like Sally Courage! Piers being my favourite driver, maybe I should have emailed them, too…

I enjoyed the Bentley Boys piece very much. At college, one of our lecturers was staging a mock press conference, and off the top of his head had to come up with the name of a fictional primary school. "Brooklands," he said. After he'd spelt it out, I said "just like the circuit." His ears pricked up, and for everyone else that was effectively the end of the lecture. Turns out his name was Bob Benjafield, grandson (IIRC) of Dr Dudley…

#1936 Twin Window

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 13:11

Originally posted by David M. Kane

...are the Spice Girls included?

Just the one, unfortunately. Sadly the hoped-for export of one of the remaining three to Mr E Murphy has fallen through.

Originally posted by bradbury west

How many of you have actually taken the trouble to ring MS and speak to the Editor or Ed staff, but constructively.?

I was with the Publisher yesterday.

#1937 Sharman

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 13:41

.....and he said?

#1938 ensign14

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 13:58

"Who are you?"

#1939 David M. Kane

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 14:13

Thank you David Beard, I tried to send you a private message; but you're mailbox is fulled.

You'd be surprised how well businesses responded to their customers feedback because they realized that if they don't they will lose money and eventually go out of business.

Clearly it requires some efforts on everyone's part. I suggest that someone close to the scene provides us with the proper email address and we can send individual messages positively written with constructive points on the areas where we feel they are falling down.

Otherwise, we can pointlessly continue this purse fight. :kiss:

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#1940 sterling49

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Posted 12 January 2007 - 18:27

Originally posted by Twin Window
Just the one, unfortunately. Sadly the hoped-for export of one of the remaining three to Mr E Murphy has fallen through.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

#1941 Roger Clark

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 10:12

I think Motor Sport would benefit from more articles about football.

May I be the first to say that my March copy hasn't arrived yet?

#1942 kayemod

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 10:20

Originally posted by Roger Clark
May I be the first to say that my March copy hasn't arrived yet?


I think I've just heard the first cuckoo.

#1943 Gary C

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:04

'May I be the first to say that my March copy hasn't arrived yet?'
No, I'm sorry, there isn't time.......................
(with thanks to the Monty Python 'Election' sketch.)

#1944 sterling49

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Posted 13 January 2007 - 11:50

Originally posted by Gary C
No, I'm sorry, there isn't time.......................
(with thanks to the Monty Python 'Election' sketch.)


:lol: :lol: :lol: :up:

#1945 Racer.Demon

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 16:56

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
As a slight tangent - are there any other TNFers who have ordered the 2007 Motor Sport calendar and are yet to receive it?

I ordered it early-December when the offer finally got through with the late December issue, and they already have their money as the creditcard payment was completed weeks ago. But nothing in the mail yet.

Or does this simply fall in line with the traditional late dispatch of Motor Sport on the continent?


So I guess I'm the only one who got suckered into this calendar? :lol:

#1946 Racer.Demon

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 16:58

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Indeed, keeping fully in mind my misgivings about the tie-in with Autosport, were I the editor I would have long ago brokered an arrangement so that this would be "The Motor Sport Forum." And, you betcha believe I would shamelessly use it as a source of inspiration and also use it as a way to fnd new talent.


And oh, indeed a missed opportunity if there ever was one.

But sadly too late now, with the magazine out of the Haymarket loop.

#1947 sterling49

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 16:59

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


So I guess I'm the only one who got suckered into this calendar? :lol:


It will still be good for the other 11 months of the year ;)

#1948 kayemod

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 17:46

Originally posted by sterling49
... for the other 11 months of the year ;)


Optimist.

#1949 Racer.Demon

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 14:14

Well, it arrived today, so still 13 days left to enjoy the January photograph. :lol:

So sterling49, you're an optimist by right. ;)

Funny thing is, the moment I got the reply from the Motor Sport office to offer me a refund, the door bell rang. :D

#1950 sterling49

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Posted 18 January 2007 - 17:56

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Well, it arrived today, so still 13 days left to enjoy the January photograph. :lol:

So sterling49, you're an optimist by right. ;)

:D


After 30 plus years in sales, you learn that tomorrow can only get better ;)

Glad it turned up in time for use in January, why you still have two weeks of the month left yet!