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'Motor Sport' magazine


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#301 FredF1

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 17:34

Originally posted by petefenelon


I think it will cease to exist with the more "modern" material being incorporated into F1 Racing and the older material (pre-Senna, probably... sigh) into C&SC. I suspect that the majority of MS readers in the UK at least take one or the other of the above, so the value of advertising in three magazines is considerably reduced....


I also suspect that Autosport will become a gosh-wow flimsy weekly devoted entirely to televised/heavily promoted motorsport - F1, WRC, BTCC - with no pretentions towards being a "journal of record". MN will focus even more tightly on its clubbie roots, Racer will concentrate almost exclusively on the US scene, and those of us interested in racing in the rest of the world will be left high and dry because who's interested in reading about (or advertising next to reports of) events that don't have (A) Jenson Button (B) loads of crashes? :(


I find that Autosport has already gone down that particular route. They seem to aim at those who watch motorsport on tv but don't keep up with the news between races. Even then there's far too much supposition and rumour being passed off as 'news'.

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#302 petefenelon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 19:06

Originally posted by FredF1


I find that Autosport has already gone down that particular route. They seem to aim at those who watch motorsport on tv but don't keep up with the news between races. Even then there's far too much supposition and rumour being passed off as 'news'.


I think Autosport has gone a long way down that route but still has some merit (although I gave up on the paper version earlier this year... and don't miss it).

At the moment Autosport still makes some effort to cover US racing, F3000, F3, sports cars/GTs, the British national scene, and at least the major headlines from across the world.

I can easily see US racing being dropped entirely (it's in Racer.... if you want that, pay extra), National stuff being punted to MN, and the rest of the stuff floating away into the distance.... with the possible exception of Le Mans...

#303 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 20:06

Originally posted by Ruairidh
.....is KarlOakie Don's new user name?


Yes, that's right...

#304 RTH

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 20:29

Originally posted by petefenelon





I also suspect that Autosport will become a gosh-wow flimsy weekly devoted entirely to televised/heavily promoted motorsport - F1, WRC, BTCC - with no pretentions towards being a "journal of record". MN will focus even more tightly on its clubbie roots, :(


Actually Pete I hope you are right , then I could happily cancel Autosport and start taking Motoring News (sic) again

#305 Twin Window

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 20:45

Originally posted by Ruairidh

...is KarlOakie Don's new user name?

Ruairidh

As Ray rightly says, 'KarlOakie Research' is Don Capps' screen name. But he still posts as 'Don Capps' too...

#306 Ruairidh

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 20:58

Originally posted by Twin Window
Ruairidh

As Ray rightly says, 'KarlOakie Research' is Don Capps' screen name. But he still posts as 'Don Capps' too...


Cool, and I now remember having seen the name before in RVM along with Messrs Sherman and Peabody. HiYa Don :wave:

#307 Mike Lawrence

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 06:33

When I was at Motor Sport in the mid-1980s, Jenks and I used to worry about what we could offer than TV coverage could not. Jenks's reports were coming out up to six weeks after we had watched the race on TV. We now have the Internet so why do we need weekly print magazines?

They still have a place if they feature outstanding writers. There was a time when I had to have Autosport each week because it not only was first with the news, but it had some great features. About 15 years ago, Autosport gave up on features, it did sound-bites instead. Autosport's masters realised that having Formula One on the cover added 10,000 to the circulation so we had any daft old thing on the cover, things like "Why Damon Must Win In Hungary", anything to get F1 on the cover.

Answer to that daft question: Damon must win in Hungary because he is in the best car, he needs the points, and he is being paid millions to win. Any other questions?

Sales go up on a classic car mag if you put a Ferrari on the cover, they also go up if you put a red car on the cover. The classic car magazines now recycling stuff they ran 10, 15, 20 years ago. They used to print original stuff, now it is all shoot-outs! The exclamation mark is essential. We decide the Top Ferrari/Porsche/Lotus/Maserati! what you will, but there has to be an exclamation mark.

I have a complete run of Throughbred and Classic Sportscar for the first 25 years. At that point I threw in the towel. A once serious magazine was being run by cretins.

With me, it got to the point when the only reason I wanted to read Autosport was Nigel Roebuck's column, so I went down the slippery path, first WH Smith, then the local library. I just wanted to read Roebuck, there was no other reason for buying Autosport. I have known Marcus Pye for a quarter of a century and he has at his fingertips more information about grassroots motor racing than anyone on the planet. Marcus is an amazing resource, yet he has been squeezed to the sidelines.

I do not like the design of the re-launched Motor Sport. I think it is cheap and fussy. As it happens I told my kid brother about this on the phone last evening and he runs a very successful design company. He could not believe than anyone could be so stupid as to abandon the green cover.

I think that it is unfair to criticise Paul Fearnley because he wears his chin with designer stubble, so does Dave Richards. Come on, that is a silly comment. I'd be surprised if Fearnley had very much choice over how Motor Sport looks, the magazine is part of a corporation and has to work to company rules.

Motor Sport has found a niche and, for the first time in its history (I have read every single copy) it represents an international perspective. One regular feature I have enjoyed has been where drivers speak about their only Grand Prix, that has been a revelation.

I agree with almost all the criticism about track tests. None appeared in Motor Sport while I had a say, I did not see the point unless there was a special angle. In the current issue, Ian Flux provides that special angle with his test of the Hill GH2. Fluxie was a mechanic with Hill when everything went pear-shaped. It is a great piece of writing. It may be the only article Ian Flux has in him, but it is a great piece and it has been lying dormant for nearly 30 years. Give Paul Fearnley some credit for having commissioned it.

The guy likes a bit of stiubble on his chin. So what? If it gets him laid it has achieved its purpose. If not, he can pick up a razor and try again.

In the current issue there is Gordon Cruickshank's interview with Michael Burn, the man who ghost-wrote Tim Birkin's 'Full Throttle'. That reveals a lot about the period. It reveals a great deal more than many an acclaimed 'history'.

If we get over some of our quibbles about layout and conventrate on content we might see a different picture. The magazine had Keith Howard foisted on it, because he is (was?) the technical whizz-kid at Haymarket. He is also a man for whom history (of which he writes) is a fuzzy idea. Howard made so many mistakes of fact that it was embarrassing, but the orders came from above

It's good to see Richard Heseltine progress because he promises to be a very good writer. He is not quite there yet, but give him a couple of years and he should have us gasping, unless the corporate body which is Haymarket swallows him up. If it does, he won't be the first.

#308 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 06:50

And the 'Track Test' articles?

I've now been through the first one... I'm amazed at the type size increase in some articles and the relative lack of reading there is... even over the previous issue...

And I agree, the colour change just had to be a nightmare someone had come to life.

#309 Pat Clarke

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 11:16

Quote Twinny on the 18th ....."Paul Fearnley is out of the office for a few days, which would explain why you haven't had your reply yet, Pat,"

...........Still waiting!
Pat

#310 KarlOakie Research

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 13:49

I have had the December issue for several days now. There is a decent magazine lying within its covers, which is something that could be said for the issues of the past several years. However, it is next to impossible to try to wade through the Benneton article for the simple reason that its layout is absolutely terrible.

I think I have to echo many of ML's comments, particularly those on the interview with Michael Burns, this being one of those things where we have to give PF full marks for an excellent idea and the sort of thing Motor Sport is fully capable of delivering. However, this merely makes the lame "track tests" look even more lame, especially since they rarely seem to have much to do with the tracks themselves, but more about the vehicle and its occupant. Either revamp the presentation or drop them, in my opinion.

As for the Ian Flux article, ML may have hit it dead center mass: an excellent bit of writing.

I am not really certain how I view Motor Sport at times, there being moments when an issue is so hopeless as to be impossible to do much more than skim it, then there is an issue which shows that there is still hope, flashes of promise shining through.

I think what is the most frustrationg aspects of Motor Sport are its inconsistency and appalling graphics and layouts. I find it a challenge to read an issue simply because the layout is so terrible, something the re-launch made worse in many respects. Simplicity would work wonders. A magazine focused on the historical aspects of motor sports (although this is obviously no longer the case) which uses a hyper-modern design and graphics is a magazine floundering.

I still think that Motor Sport has a foot in the grave.

#311 David Beard

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 17:04

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
However, it is next to impossible to try to wade through the Benneton article for the simple reason that its layout is absolutely terrible.

I


Wade through it, Don? I didn't even FIND a Benneton article. :confused:

#312 David Beard

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 17:09

I'm sure I'm not alone in greatly enjoying Mike Lawrence's recent TNF contributions...as I did his Farina article in Motor Sport which he didn't mention....
Nice to see someone defend the Fearnley editorial photo, too. Of all my objections to the Red 'un, that mug shot is the smallest. It isn't relevant.

#313 Garagiste

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 17:14

I guess Don means the "that was 1994" article - as it features Benetton pretty heavily.
I have to agree, there is interesting stuff in there, but the layout is bizarre - it's looks a bit like something you might find in a teen mag.

#314 David Beard

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 17:17

Originally posted by Garagiste
it's looks a bit like something you might find in a teen mag.


I thought that was the idea of the revamp :(

#315 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 18:08

Oooh - so that's where they got the idea from (I don't read teen mags, you see).

There is hope for the old girl yet - but I'm not convinced it'll see out 2005.

#316 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 23:28

Don't teen mags pander to those with ADD?

#317 Marcel Schot

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Posted 10 January 2005 - 12:26

Just heard another one that I really like. Paradox doing a speed metal version of ABBA's S.O.S. :cool:

#318 Barry Boor

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 19:11

To anyone who does not subscribe and who has not yet bought the next issue - if you don't like 'tin tops', think carefully before you buy.

There are 19 pages given over to various aspects of saloon car racing, from a Gerry Marshall question/answer session to a 'top 20 tin-top drivers' feature, followed by another one of these road car comparisons - a Ford and a BMW.

There is a nice little item about Monsanto and some stuff about Schumacher and Mansell.... and some other items too, of course, but far too many vehicles with rooves for my liking.

#319 dolomite

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 19:27

Well I have nothing against saloon car racing but something that irritates me beyond belief is the constant use of the stupid term 'tin-tops' in magazine headlines. :mad: Looks like I shan't be buying this issue then.

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#320 David McKinney

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 20:27

More saloon stuff than I personally care for, but I recognise they have to appeal to more tastes than mine :cool:
And I'd rather see efforts to expand readership go in that direction than some they could have chosen instead :lol:

#321 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 19 January 2005 - 21:24

I don't mind the saloon stuff on this occasion as it is not featured too often.
At least they are trying to give us some variety so credit where due.
...and they mentioned me in the Rick Morris v Senna feature so not all bad! :p

#322 green-blood

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:37

are we really that snobby lads... my complaints have not been directly concerned with the content but with the presentation etc. There are 12 mags a year, 1 given over to feature saloon car racing is surely not out of proportion. Read nothing new, learn nothing new.

#323 smarjoram

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:59

Didn't I see a Sierra vs. M3 comparison in Octane last month?

#324 Mallory Dan

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 10:13

I hate the phrase 'Touring Cars', surely they're just Saloons.

Touring Cars to me implies more of a GT, ie Grand Tourer, like the current FIA GTs, not a modified Astra/MG/Honda hot hatch. Sorry to be pedantic...

#325 green-blood

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 10:54

so you'd prefere hatchback racing to be termed saloons.... how do we sell pedantic :lol: (joke!!)

#326 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 15:10

Any news if there will be a giveaway video or DVD with a next issue??? :

#327 Mallory Dan

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 16:17

Only opened my copy last night. I thought PF seems very defensive on his previous use of Top Twenty Lists and so forth. In fact it seemed the whole Editorial was written rather 'on the back foot'. Has the recent TNF criticism been getting to him and the Editorial Team, does anyone else think ?

#328 Gary C

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 16:29

'Any news if there will be a giveaway video or DVD with a next issue???' Why? Was this touted as happening?

#329 David Beard

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 17:10

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
I hate the phrase 'Touring Cars', surely they're just Saloons.

Touring Cars to me implies more of a GT, ie Grand Tourer, like the current FIA GTs, not a modified Astra/MG/Honda hot hatch. Sorry to be pedantic...


I have long been puzzled by the "Touring Car " terminology, too. The teenagers who are supposed to be buying Motor Sport now must be even more puzzled.

#330 David McKinney

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 17:18

Wasn't it always called the British Touring Car Championship? (even if everyone called them saloons)

#331 dolomite

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 18:02

Back in the days when it was a proper racing series it was called the British Saloon Car Championship.

#332 David Beard

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 18:11

Originally posted by David McKinney
Wasn't it always called the British Touring Car Championship? (even if everyone called them saloons)


Of course. But it didn't stop me always thinking it was a daft appellation. Or is that wine? Sorry, relaxing with some just now.......

Touring cars should have large roof racks, or perhaps tow a caravan.

#333 David McKinney

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 18:47

Now I think of it, dolomite's right. It was the Saloon Championship when it started. When did it become the BTCC? When the RAC took it over from the BRSCC - or later? Being 12,000 miles away at the time, I wasn't paying too much attention.
I guess the British series copied the European Championship's terminology at some stage.
Of course the Australians had a Touring Car Championship even before the ETC - and they didn't even call them saloons, let alone touring cars :lol:

#334 JohnS

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 20:06

I enjoyed Simon Taylor's article on collecting. It struck a chord! :)

John

#335 h4887

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 20:46

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David McKinney
Being 12,000 miles away at the time, I wasn't paying too much attention.
[/QUOTE]


In which direction? :lol:

Geoff

#336 Pils1989

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 23:56

Nice yellow Daytona in Janurary issue ;)

#337 Patrice L'Rodent

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:11

Quote Twinny on the 18th Nov 2004 ....."Paul Fearnley is out of the office for a few days, which would explain why you haven't had your reply yet, Pat,"

Should I give up waiting yet? :p
Pat

#338 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:26

As Motor Sport was not stocked at either Norwich or Gatwick airports, or ANY newsagents or supermarkets in Luton & Dunstable, I have finally tracked down a copy.
I actually think the cover stands out more - it's Autosport you have to search for. That would be better advised going Green I think.
Inside:
Look - well if anything it looks less "stuffy", but a bit more cluttered. But it's okay.
Content - the only thing I will say is certain articles seem out of place, as it were, in the magazine - you'd expect them to be linked together. But content was readable.

Not enough to make me subscribe again, but not as bad as feared as some had suggested on here. An improvement? About the same, which is a disappointment.

#339 Twin Window

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 10:42

Originally posted by Patrice L'Rodent

Quote Twinny on the 18th Nov 2004 ....."Paul Fearnley is out of the office for a few days, which would explain why you haven't had your reply yet, Pat,"

Should I give up waiting yet? :p
Pat

Pat - I have actually mentioned this to Stuart Forrest recently, as well as Ray Bell's query.

I'm sure Stuart will do someting when he reads this... :wave:

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#340 tonicco

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 15:15

Originally posted by Barry Boor
There is a nice little item about Monsanto



And I think your thread on Monsanto is far better than the mentioned article... ;)

#341 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 16:18

Still waiting for that video....

#342 Stephen W

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 17:09

I have to admit I wasn't too pleased with the change initially BUT it is growing on me! A bit like moss! :lol:

Can't always agree about their choices in the Top 20 lists but that is the point! All I'd want to ask is which cretin put Alain Menu ahead of Sir Frank Gardner, Gerry Marshall and Jim Clark? :mad:

#343 Darren Galpin

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 08:19

I think you highlight there, Stephen, the problem with all of these lists. You watched Gardner, Marshall and Clark doing there stuff out on the track. Given the ages of the jury who compiled that list, a lot of them didn't. On the other hand, I have seen Menu competing in touring cars, and have only seen Marshall competing in his modified Aston Martin - it makes it more difficult to feel impassioned about Marshall, so you tend to look at the statistics. And it will always be thus as newer people join the juries, as they remember the newer drivers better. Perhaps they ought to look at a better way of selecting a more representative jury?

#344 Kpy

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:32

I think this highlights the danger of "best" lists. They rely on the memory and opinions of a jury. Is MotorSport's current saloon drivers list one of specialist saloon racers, or of the best drivers ever to race a saloon?
Soper was a very good journeyman racing driver. There is no possible way of saying that he was the equal of, say, Clark, G.Hill, Gurney, J.Mass, H. Stuck jr, or Ronnie Peterson.

#345 Frank de Jong

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 11:06

Coming back on the "touring car" discussion: the term is used outside the UK too.
NL: toerwagens
D: tourenwagen
I: Turismo
F: Tourisme

So, for once, Britain uses an international term :p

A Saloon is a place in the far west where you can buy a drink - a saloon car takes you home after that, or am I on the wrong track?

#346 Vitesse2

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 11:53

Surely the term "Touring Cars" goes back to the roots of motor sport? Admittedly, not in that exact form, but there were "Tourist" classes in some of the early city-to-city races. There were varying degrees of competitiveness in these, most being no more than reliability runs, but some included regularity sections or similar elements, thus setting the scene for the later development of rallies, which were generally for production cars.

However, I think the term "Touring Cars" may actually have been coined for the first Tourist Trophy in 1905: among the regulations were stipulations that cars had to have four wheels and a four-seater body and that exact duplicates of any competing chassis could be purchased for a declared price within a month of the race.

So, actually, Frank, it's you foreigners using one of our terms! :p

#347 Mallory Dan

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 13:39

If the phrase is an 'International term' and in common use in Europe, I'd much prefer we stick to 'Saloon cars' thanks.

#348 RTH

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 14:12

When Le Mans started in 1923 it was for touring cars (pity it still isn't ) i.e with folding hoods and they had to start the race with the hoods up.

The tourer version of 1930's road cars meant a soft top to the man in the street. This sort of changed over the years to Grand Touring , the big powerful sort of car two of you might go on a touring holiday in across the continent, often with a fixed head.

Personally I would prefer the BTCC type cars were called saloon cars , as better befits there station.

#349 petefenelon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 16:07

Originally posted by RTH
When Le Mans started in 1923 it was for touring cars (pity it still isn't ) i.e with folding hoods and they had to start the race with the hoods up.

The tourer version of 1930's road cars meant a soft top to the man in the street. This sort of changed over the years to Grand Touring , the big powerful sort of car two of you might go on a touring holiday in across the continent, often with a fixed head.

Personally I would prefer the BTCC type cars were called saloon cars , as better befits there station.


"Repmobiles" was the rather perjorative epithet used when the two-litre atmo rules came in in the early nineties -- although, looking back, it gave us some damn good racing....


#350 oldtimer

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 16:24

Originally posted by Kpy
I think this highlights the danger of "best" lists. They rely on the memory and opinions of a jury. Is MotorSport's current saloon drivers list one of specialist saloon racers, or of the best drivers ever to race a saloon?
Soper was a very good journeyman racing driver. There is no possible way of saying that he was the equal of, say, Clark, G.Hill, Gurney, J.Mass, H. Stuck jr, or Ronnie Peterson.


Just to emphasise the point, to watch Mike Hawthorn in a Jaguar saloon was as exciting as any on the list. Well, maybe not as exciting as Clark in the Lotus-Cortina, but that looked more like controlled craziness.