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'Motor Sport' magazine


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#4051 john aston

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:41

Never mind the quality, just feel those pages on road cars like the latest Vauxhall Astra, mmm...



Or ignore the Astra stuff , cheer up and read the interview with Pat Symonds - fascinating. Or the bike v Gp car piece by Mat Oxley. Or Roebuck's acerbic piece.Or - most of the mag actually. MS isn't perfect but it is head and shoulders above anything else- Astra content or not. And let's not forget that WB's road car articles were almost invariably dire. No - they were worse than dire...

Edited by john aston, 27 July 2012 - 06:42.


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#4052 Roger Clark

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:17

All that and a letter from Alan Cox!

#4053 D-Type

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:29

Or ignore the Astra stuff , cheer up and read the interview with Pat Symonds - fascinating. Or the bike v Gp car piece by Mat Oxley. Or Roebuck's acerbic piece.Or - most of the mag actually. MS isn't perfect but it is head and shoulders above anything else- Astra content or not. And let's not forget that WB's road car articles were almost invariably dire. No - they were worse than dire...

I totally agree. But ...

#4054 nicanary

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:11

And two more of those ruddy "advertorials" - Heuer and Credit Suisse. All dolled-up to look like editorial features. Sigh.

#4055 hamsterace

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:36

Personally, I'm still thanking my lucky stars that we are now spared the nauseating photo diary of Louisa Skipper (brilliantly once referred to, I believe on this forum, as "The Fragrant Ms. Skipper) and her endless succession of toe-curling photo ops. Chelsea girl in flowery dress brandishing large glass of Pimms/ Bolly hangs out with a load of "B" list celebs at the Hurlingham Club. Gripping...

On a more positive note, I personally find Mat Oxley's column fascinating. Big fan of bikes though I am, I initially thought it might be a step too far for an ostensibly four wheel-centric publication, but I am happy to have been proved wrong.



#4056 Sharman

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 12:48

Personally, I'm still thanking my lucky stars that we are now spared the nauseating photo diary of Louisa Skipper (brilliantly once referred to, I believe on this forum, as "The Fragrant Ms. Skipper) and her endless succession of toe-curling photo ops. Chelsea girl in flowery dress brandishing large glass of Pimms/ Bolly hangs out with a load of "B" list celebs at the Hurlingham Club. Gripping...

On a more positive note, I personally find Mat Oxley's column fascinating. Big fan of bikes though I am, I initially thought it might be a step too far for an ostensibly four wheel-centric publication, but I am happy to have been proved wrong.


Long, long ago there was a joint car/bike meeting at Oulton. I don't recall who was on the bikes but I believe there were some respected names among them. I was on the outside of Lodge in front of the old pavilion with some bike fans who were being derogatory about 4 wheels and claiming that none of the cars would match the times of the 500 Nortons etc. A gentleman by the name of Salvadori hurled his F2 Cooper into the corner, tweaked the wheel this way and that and vanished into the middle distance. There was an embarassed silence from the two wheel aficionados before they began to talk about something else.

#4057 john aston

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 16:58

Slight hijack but I often encounter superbikes on my Caterham runs- I struggle on the straights but my word they are VERY slow in the corners, especially tight ones. I went to watch a superbike race to find out more- yup- utterly pedestrian in the bends compared to any race prepared car but Bejesus they were just staggeringly fast out of the bends. At a guess they were pulling 160 plus where most cars would struggle to top 120 or less. I was impressed - big cojones much in evidence.

#4058 BRG

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 18:19

And two more of those ruddy "advertorials" - Heuer and Credit Suisse. All dolled-up to look like editorial features. Sigh.

All dolled up? It says ADVERTISEMENT FEATURE at the top of each one. :rolleyes:

A much better edition than last month. I am fascinated by Doug Nye's bit on the Chinetti/Ferrari spat. And looking forward to reading Frankel's tests.

Edited by BRG, 27 July 2012 - 18:20.


#4059 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 18:21

Me too - as above. I have enormous respect for racing motorcyclists, and absolutely boundless respect for the road racers who tackle the Irish and Ulster courses and the Isle of Man TTs. Enormous cojones and no imagination? Maybe - but tremendous confidence and skill too... Real warriors.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 27 July 2012 - 18:27.


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#4060 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 18:52

Looks good, at least they are now saying which articles are sponsored. I don't want to read about motor bikes please and please sack Frankel and his pointless road tests. lets have more about real historic motorsport and not just the "moneyed" events.

#4061 Charlieman

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 19:26

Slight hijack but I often encounter superbikes on my Caterham runs- I struggle on the straights but my word they are VERY slow in the corners, especially tight ones. I went to watch a superbike race to find out more- yup- utterly pedestrian in the bends compared to any race prepared car but Bejesus they were just staggeringly fast out of the bends. At a guess they were pulling 160 plus where most cars would struggle to top 120 or less. I was impressed - big cojones much in evidence.


For the benefit of those who have not read Mat Oxley's piece this month, John is making similar observations. The risk difference between a road race and permanent circuit is difficult to overstate. On a modern permanent circuit, design of run off areas is a compromise of the needs of bike and car racers, and of different sorts. On a road circuit, there is no compromise because there are few run off areas.

For wealthy bikers racing on permanent circuits, there have been some incredible developments in race suit design (materials, air bags). Marco Simoncelli's sad death could not have been prevented by technology, but other racers have escaped with lighter injuries in horrible accidents.

Mat Oxley's contributions to Motor Sport are almost always good. Their presence reflects changing attitudes of Motor Sport readers who, thanks to the BBC's excellent MotoGP coverage and SuperBike broadcasting elsewhere, cannot help but notice that bikes provide great entertainment and that many riders are great characters. Keep the bikes in Motor Sport and dump the road car coverage as much as possible, acknowledging that Porsche, Alfa Romeo, BMW et al expect a bit of contemporary coverage if journalists are to get close to the museum stuff.


#4062 Glengavel

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 20:13

Me too - as above. I have enormous respect for racing motorcyclists, and absolutely boundless respect for the road racers who tackle the Irish and Ulster courses and the Isle of Man TTs. Enormous cojones and no imagination? Maybe - but tremendous confidence and skill too... Real warriors.

DCN


When I see on-bike camera shots of the TT I want to hide behind the sofa...


#4063 LittleChris

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 20:59

Let's not forget that some of DSJ's earliest contributions to Motor Sport were under the nom de plume of Carrozino ( spelling ?) and were concerned with bike racing rather than car racing. I welcome the inclusion of the two wheeled stuff and would like to see more historical articles by Mat Oxley or other respected writers. Perhaps Muddly Talker could contribute given his preference for the two/three wheeled brigade. It would also hopefully open up a wider audience for Motor Sport as I'm sure some of our brethren on the Motorcycle Nostaglia Forum would be interested in well written articles.


#4064 RA Historian

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 14:15

I don't want to read about motor bikes please and please sack Frankel and his pointless road tests. lets have more about real historic motorsport and not just the "moneyed" events.

While I admit that I am not interested in bikes and road tests, I also realize that if the inclusion of such features means some more ad sales and circulation gains I am all for it. Simple economics; more revenue, bigger and better magazine for all. Less revenue, less pages, less features, and a slow spiral into oblivion. Anything that keeps the mag going strong is fine with me and if one does not like bikes or Frankel, simply flip the page over to the next article like I do.
Tom

#4065 Claudio Navonne

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 14:21

While I admit that I am not interested in bikes and road tests, I also realize that if the inclusion of such features means some more ad sales and circulation gains I am all for it. Simple economics; more revenue, bigger and better magazine for all. Less revenue, less pages, less features, and a slow spiral into oblivion. Anything that keeps the mag going strong is fine with me and if one does not like bikes or Frankel, simply flip the page over to the next article like I do.
Tom


:up: +1


#4066 D-Type

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 14:22

But I still want the pages I do read to be accurate!

#4067 kayemod

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 14:45

But I still want the pages I do read to be accurate!


This is a blood-pressurish complaint, but some of the writers' grammar leaves a little to be desired, especially personal pronoun abuse. Editor Damien got 'I' where it should have been 'me' twice on a single page. Ok, so I know that's getting petty, but professional writers ought not to make mistakes like that. Probably still a lot better than the likes of Autosport however.


#4068 Sharman

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 15:56

This is a blood-pressurish complaint, but some of the writers' grammar leaves a little to be desired, especially personal pronoun abuse. Editor Damien got 'I' where it should have been 'me' twice on a single page. Ok, so I know that's getting petty, but professional writers ought not to make mistakes like that. Probably still a lot better than the likes of Autosport however.


Interesting comment, I don't remember ever thinking that anything written by DSJ or WB, or by GG or JVB, was grammatically incorrect. :cat: and DCN writes nicely too!

#4069 PCC

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 17:44

DCN writes nicely too!

I don't think he gets enough credit for this. We all know how knowledgeable he is, but he also really understands how to tall a story - so much so that I find myself riveted to articles that I had thought would not interest me in the slightest.

#4070 LittleChris

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 20:51

I don't think he gets enough credit for this. We all know how knowledgeable he is, but he also really understands how to tall a story - so much so that I find myself riveted to articles that I had thought would not interest me in the slightest.



Is that a new adjective for telling tall tales ? :D And if so, does DCN get the right of reply ?

#4071 PCC

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 21:23

Is that a new adjective for telling tall tales ? :D And if so, does DCN get the right of reply ?

Oops... but the typo is actually more interesting and suggestive than what I meant to say!

#4072 kayemod

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 22:37

Oops... but the typo is actually more interesting and suggestive than what I meant to say!


Doug? Suggestive?? Surely not!!!


#4073 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 23:07

Hmmm - assessing potential interest is always more luck than judgement. As for 'suggestive', my ribs are still aching from a recent edition of the BBC Radio quiz programme 'I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue' which I believe was held in the Natural History Museum.

In expressing regret at the apparent absence of resident (totally imaginary) scorer, 'the lovely Samantha', Chairman Jack Dee explained how she had been showing unexpected interest in the Museum's archaeological collection tracing the evolution of early man.

So much so, in fact, that she was suspected of pilfering some of the exhibits. He said she had last been seen taking a fine example of Homo Erectus through the tradesman's entrance...

God Bless Auntie Beeb.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 28 July 2012 - 23:14.


#4074 LittleChris

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 23:26

And for anyone not fortunate enough to have been able to listen to BBC Radio 4's ISIHAC and in particular 'the lovely Samantha':

Abridged from Wikipedia

Since 18 May 1985 the show has included a fictional and completely silent scorer "whose job is eased by the fact no points are actually awarded", usually "the lovely Samantha". There is a seat with a microphone next to the Chairman ( At that time the late Humphrey Lyttelton ) which is 'used' by Samantha. During the introductory music the Chairman would stand up and 'help' Samantha into her seat. In practice the seat and microphone was only used by the producer to welcome the audience, to introduce the participants and to give any other information to the audience such as the expected date of broadcasting, and to supervise re-recordings of fluffs made in the programme.

Lyttelton would describe Samantha's social activities, usually in an apology received from the absent character who had been detained, often with a "gentleman friend". His comments included innuendo and double entendres, often more outrageously offensive (in the implied innuendo) than could be got away with anywhere else, even before political correctness was heard of. Early in Samantha's career on ISIHAC, when it was not completely clear she was a fictional character, a letter appeared in the BBC's Radio Times magazine protesting at the sexist and humiliating treatment she received.Producer Jon Naismith adds "I remember when we [Naismith and Iain Pattinson] took over the show we used to get quite a few letters accusing us of sexist references to Samantha." Samantha's inabilities as score-keeper often form the basis for humour; in a programme from 1997, Humph said: "It's just occurred to me that Samantha hasn't given us the score... since 1981."

Samantha has sometimes been replaced by a Swedish stand-in, Sven, or occasionally another substitute, Monica. When Margaret Thatcher left office in 1990 Lyttelton introduced a scorer named Margaret. In an episode in November 1991 both Samantha and Sven were present but occupied with each other and unable to award points.

The program has used "advanced laser display-boards" over recent decades, sometimes described in more elaborate terms and "so generously funded by our hosts", in rounds in which the panel must not see what the audience sees, but these are actually a large card with the words written on it (conveyed to listeners at home by the "mystery voice", a device also employed in the 1960s radio show Twenty Questions).


#4075 Glengavel

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 18:21

And for anyone not fortunate enough to have been able to listen to BBC Radio 4's ISIHAC and in particular 'the lovely Samantha':

Abridged from Wikipedia


The program has used "advanced laser display-boards" over recent decades, sometimes described in more elaborate terms and "so generously funded by our hosts", in rounds in which the panel must not see what the audience sees, but these are actually a large card with the words written on it (conveyed to listeners at home by the "mystery voice", a device also employed in the 1960s radio show Twenty Questions).


And the mystery voice is in fact producer John Naismith.

There are a couple of CDs out which have the full show from start to finish, before it's edited for radio, along with some comments on the show from Naismith. Worth looking out for.



#4076 Dunc

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 20:23

Out of curiosity, how old are most MS readers? I'm in my late 20s and love the mag but, judging by the adverts, I get the impression it's mainly read by a much older crowd.

#4077 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:39

I'm 34, going on 54 though if you asked my girlfriend!!

#4078 Les

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Posted 28 August 2012 - 08:47

Out of curiosity, how old are most MS readers? I'm in my late 20s and love the mag but, judging by the adverts, I get the impression it's mainly read by a much older crowd.


31 and a subscriber but I wondered the same thing!

#4079 LittleChris

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 21:33

Recently hit half century and have been reading MS for 39 years.

Next months edition includes an interview with Andrea de Cesaris and Lunch With David Brabham.

There's one of those poll thingies on the site asking people to vote for their favourite GP track and currently Old Spa has almost double the votes of anywhere else :up: Can't understand how Rouen isn't one of the choices though it can presumably be voted for under Other

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#4080 Allan Lupton

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 22:19

Recently hit half century and have been reading MS for 39 years.

Yes, I gave up on it when I was 53 (having started at 18) :D

#4081 D-Type

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 22:25

I suspect that the membership of this forum who are Motor Sport readers is unrepresentative of the general readership of Motor Sport - our average age is probably higher.

Edited by D-Type, 29 August 2012 - 22:26.


#4082 DogEarred

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 06:25

OMG!

Just realised I've been reading it for about 46 years! Even subscribed to it abroad on several occasions. I first saw it when I was doing a paper round as a kid & I found the front cover pictures so fascinating. I'd read a bit each morning. That's what really made me interested in going to see my first race. (F1 ROC 1968)
Still read it but I do accept some of the recent critisism of it here.

#4083 john aston

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 07:05

42 years and counting. Started buying it in 6th form when I was 18. And it's a far better read than it was then.I miss DSJ reports - which were terrific and the classifieds were compelling.But a lot of the rest was a bit tired even then...

#4084 sterling49

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 16:04

47 years.............where has the time gone :eek:

#4085 David Lawson

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 20:28

I bought the magazine from time to time starting in 1963 and every month from 1966.

David

#4086 pete53

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 10:54

I recently picked up a copy of a running magazine that I used to buy on a regular basis ( running having been my drug for 25 years). I was shocked by the paucity of content - lots of adverts, pictures, but precious little editorial, and what editorial there was consisted of banner headlines and a few spaced out paragraphs. I don't know who the magazine is aimed at (yes, obviously runners), but presumably people who, it is perceived, can only digest small bite sized chunks of information before their attention wanders elsewhere ( and perhaps that includes the contributors) . In fact, a quick glance at some other magazines, courtesy of WH Smith's magazine "library", suggests this is now fairly commonplace.

I only mention this because when I returned to Motor Sport it didn't seem so bad after all! Not perfect, but at least there is still a sizeable amount of readable content.

ps from an on and off reader since 1963

Edited by pete53, 31 August 2012 - 11:55.


#4087 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 11:46

As my father bought it, he used to say I learnt to read via MS! So all my life really although there was a period at the end of the Boddy erea 9in the 80s) when I stopped it and then when it was revvived I started again. I almost stopped a couple of times whne it hit a bad phase but still get it on subscription. I would like to see more about clubby historic racing not the "elite, no more bikes and less USA stuff and of course Frankel being ejected but most of it is great.

#4088 David Beard

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 11:50

I'm 63 and I've been reading it since I was 6. Before that I just looked at the pictures in the middle.

Edited by David Beard, 31 August 2012 - 11:50.


#4089 Hamish Robson

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 11:58

I see in the new issue that Frankel's Road Cars section has made it very near the front. "Motor Sport"?

Sorry I've only been buying it for 13 years.

#4090 P0wderf1nger

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:28

As my father bought it, he used to say I learnt to read via MS!

Me too. Certainly by the age of eight, I'd spend ages reading Motor Sport. I wonder when Eoin Young started his 'Straight from the Grid' pieces in Autocar? I loved them too.

How my father let me cut his magazines up into scrapbooks, to write my own race summaries, photo captions and points tables, is beyond me.

My 2/6 pocket money usually went in its entirety on another book in the Ladybird 'Kings and Queens of England' series. Roll forward almost 50 years, and I'm still devouring Motor Sport, and biographies of racing drivers and historic personalities.

I don't know who said, 'Show me the boy of eight and I'll show you the man', but in the context of what I read and write, he was absolutely on the money.

#4091 jcdeleted

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 12:54

I'm 63 and I've been reading it since I was 6. Before that I just looked at the pictures in the middle.


I'm of the same vintage, but as a relative latecomer, I didn't get my first copy until I was 9. On my 11th birthday I persuaded my parents that it would benefit my education for them to buy me Motor Sport every month rather than the Eagle every week. Precocious, pretentious or sad? Probably a bit of all three. I also persuaded them at the same time to change their paper from the Daily Mail to the Manchester Guardian, whose editorial musings differed somewhat from those of the sainted, but to an 11 year old somewhat pompous Boddy. Always found the writings of DSJ absolutely wonderful though, and indeed still do.

#4092 kayemod

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 13:01

I recently picked up a copy of a running magazine that I used to buy on a regular basis ( running having been my drug for 25 years). I was shocked by the paucity of content - lots of adverts, pictures, but precious little editorial, and what editorial there was consisted of banner headlines and a few spaced out paragraphs. I don't know who the magazine is aimed at (yes, obviously runners), but presumably people who, it is perceived, can only digest small bite sized chunks of information before their attention wanders elsewhere ( and perhaps that includes the contributors) . In fact, a quick glance at some other magazines, courtesy of WH Smith's magazine "library", suggests this is now fairly commonplace.


You've just described Autosport, which was once a worthwhile magazine.

Some of the advertising in Motor Sport bemuses me somewhat, ugly but expensive watches I can understand in a way, but merchant banks..?


#4093 bradbury west

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 14:04

42 years and counting. Started buying it in 6th form when I was 18. And it's a far better read than it was then.I miss DSJ reports - which were terrific and the classifieds were compelling.But a lot of the rest was a bit tired even then...


Come on John, these views, as all views, are so subjective. We have had these discussions before about MS of old. It was of its time, and the best of its time, IMHO. Perhaps some of us do not share your views about the current version. It is a different type of publication now, again moving with the times, through a difficult transition, to a no doubt different clientele, but with a very patient and indulgent, but commercially aware, backer. Personal choice for him as it is for us in all these sorts of things.
Roger Lund, buyer and reader of MS since January 1960

#4094 RA Historian

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 14:26

I would like to see more about clubby historic racing not the "elite, no more bikes and less USA stuff

Of course, those of us in the USA would like to see more USA stuff! As for "clubby historic racing", that does not hold my interest. Who wins what at a club meet is of no interest to most of us. To me, the car is what matters in historic racing, not the driver. But that is just me. The magazine has researched its audience periodically and as a result has to do a balancing act of content, advertising, and so forth, which is not an easy task at all. The end result obviously does not please everyone, but on the whole is an excellent compromise with something for everyone. I don't really think that we can ask for more than that.

Come on John, these views, as all views, are so subjective. We have had these discussions before about MS of old. It was of its time, and the best of its time, IMHO. Perhaps some of us do not share your views about the current version. It is a different type of publication now, again moving with the times, through a difficult transition, to a no doubt different clientele, but with a very patient and indulgent, but commercially aware, backer. Personal choice for him as it is for us in all these sorts of things.
Roger Lund, buyer and reader of MS since January 1960

Well said, Roger!

Tom

#4095 john aston

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 15:25

Well of course my views are subjective and how dull it would be if we had to provide empirical evidence to support our strongly held opinions and prejudices. So in my world I think Villeneuve was overrated, Rosberg underated and Lauda one of the best of all - and hang the stats! But on topic , the 20 something me did find MS very stuffy and establishment -and in those days Autosport was a far better read for me- but it wasn't then an Effone fanzine for people with the attention span of an ant of course...

#4096 kayemod

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:33

...in my world I think Villeneuve was overrated, Rosberg underated and Lauda one of the best of all - and hang the stats! But on topic , the 20 something me did find MS very stuffy and establishment -and in those days Autosport was a far better read for me- but it wasn't then an Effone fanzine for people with the attention span of an ant of course...


Couldn't agree more with all of that, especially about the drivers. I'm a slow reader, it takes me a week or two to read most of MS, and I've just reached the Bill Boddy piece in the current issue, what a man. I wonder how many of us have drawn the attention of our wives/partners/significant others to his collecting tendencies? I thought I was bad, but I'm a saint in comparison. The only complaint I get, though on a fairly regular basis it has to be said, is "You've got too many books!"


#4097 nicanary

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 13:56

Couldn't agree more with all of that, especially about the drivers. I'm a slow reader, it takes me a week or two to read most of MS, and I've just reached the Bill Boddy piece in the current issue, what a man. I wonder how many of us have drawn the attention of our wives/partners/significant others to his collecting tendencies? I thought I was bad, but I'm a saint in comparison. The only complaint I get, though on a fairly regular basis it has to be said, is "You've got too many books!"


We're going a bit OT here, but the "collecting" is a sore point in my household. I'm a single parent, with a 27 year-old daughter who know very little about my collection and values. She's panicking already about how to dispose of things, and I'm only 62, with no real health issues. So far I've listed all my Dinkys with likely resale values, but she wants me to start selling books now that I've read them - she just doesn't understand.

Why don't they "get it"? They never throw away their handbags and shoes. Anyway, E-bay is a great leveller; things usually sell for their real value if you describe them correctly. She probably can't be bothered with the wrapping and packaging. Moan over.


#4098 PCC

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 14:35

The only complaint I get, though on a fairly regular basis it has to be said, is "You've got too many books!"

There's no such thing as 'too many books'...

#4099 DampMongoose

DampMongoose
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Posted 01 October 2012 - 16:22

There's no such thing as 'too many books'...


I agree, the two problems I have however, are firstly if the kids wake up in the night, I have the dangerous situation of leaping out of bed and sliding straight into the wardrobe on one of the many issues of Motorsport I happen to have at easy reach on the floor (The Mrs loves this filing system but when the bookcase is full???) and secondly that large hardback reading material; in particluar 'Mike Hawthorn - Golden Boy' can leave a nasty bruise on the forehead when you fall asleep reading into the small hours...

Edited by DampMongoose, 01 October 2012 - 18:58.


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#4100 Charlieman

Charlieman
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Posted 01 October 2012 - 18:59

I agree, the two problems I have however, are firstly if the kids wake up in the night, I have the dangerous situation of leaping out of bed and sliding straight into the wardrobe on one of the many issues of Motorsport I happen to have at easy reach on the floor...


I've observed that the new breed of Motor Sport does not vertically stack very well. When placed in the bed side pile (inc WB's Brooklands History -- I'm up to 1932), they have a tendency to shoot out like an eel if disturbed.