188 replies to this topic

[BRK]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/77481


Wonder what the revised regulations are.

[D.M.N.]

"The WMSC has also approved a slightly revised set of stable sporting and technical regulations (to apply from the 2010 championship onwards), which have been agreed by the FIA and the teams and which will be published shortly on the FIA's website.

Will be interesting to see - they dare mess with qualifying....

[engel]

The good thing is, no more teams leaving the sport till 2012, on the back of BMW it's definitely good the whole Renault/Toyota are leaving speculation can now subside.

[brabham bt50]

It is now certain that FIA has signed the Concorde Agreement, regarding their pressrelease of today. That pressrelease however did not made it clear for me whether Ecclestone ( CVC ) and the F1 teams have also already signed this document at this moment !

Can anyone give me that information ?

[Jay]

This is good news..

Looking forward to reading the revised tech reg's soon..

J

[D.M.N.]

It is now certain that FIA has signed the Concorde Agreement, regarding their pressrelease of today. That pressrelease however did not made it clear for me whether Ecclestone ( CVC ) and the F1 teams have also already signed this document at this moment !

Can anyone give me that information ?

You're right. It doesn't: http://www.fia.com/e...1_concorde.aspx

I presume Bernie and the teams have signed it though.

Edited by D.M.N., 01 August 2009 - 11:13.

[BRK]

It does say a revised set of regulations have been agreed by both the FIA and the teams,so I don't foresee any further worries....save BMW.

[engel]

Procedurally the FIA is the last one to sign, CVC (FOA) and the teams sign, they give it to the FIA it gets ratified by the WMC and then signed by the FIA president.

Teams and Bernie signed it on Thursday

[D.M.N.]

Why isn't the Concorde Agreement published anywhere - i.e. the FIA website?

[Pharazon]

i'd be amazed if someone doesn't do a Brawn to BMW Sauber...

they've got massive infastructure there

[JensonF1]

It's a secret legal document containing all the business secrets of F1.

The technical regulations are published - that's a different document.

I am so glad the teams decided to eventually agree to Max Mosley's cost cutting plan. I hear the budget will go from £80 million to £40 million in 2 years. The agreement only lasts until 2012 though, so as Concorde Agreements go, this is going to be a short term solution.

[sreevishnu]

Why isn't the Concorde Agreement published anywhere - i.e. the FIA website?

it wont be
its a legal documents between fia and teams
i dont think any of the known Concorde agreements has been publsihed

[engel]

it wont be
its a legal documents between fia and teams
i dont think any of the known Concorde agreements has been publsihed

the 97 concorde was "leaked" though not officially published http://www.racefax.c...nt/concorde.php

[BRK]

I remember the '97 version was published somewhere and I had a copy..

As for the cost-cutting idea,somehow it doesn't make much sense to agree to cut down gradually to low figures by the time the recession wears off only to drop the cap sometime around 2012.They'd then probably quarrel over the regulation changes that would be necessary to ease spending...

[primer]

The good thing is, no more teams leaving the sport till 2012,

How can you be so sure?

Vijay's empire is in terrible financial trouble, Force India will go down soon. Who knows how long some of the others will last.

[gincarnated]

I hope they stipulated that the FIA have to be more transparent and actually publish their decisions online for the fans. Hopefully different stewards for each race is gone too.

On FOM's end maybe we'll finally get real HD broadcasts for every race and better coverage and access to info during the races.

The teams better not have missed this opportunity to push through some of the changes they were talking about in regards to their own series.

[stevvy1986]

Exactly. There's been Concorde Agreement's before and teams have still left the sport, be it because of going bust or other factors. A Concorde Agreement never has, and never will, stop teams leaving the sport.

[JensonF1]

I thought one of the conditions being spoken about this time around is that it commits the manufacturer teams to 2012, which is why BMW had to make their decision to leave now.

So does this mean Renault & Toyota have decided to stay?

[engel]

I was referring to the manufacturer teams, I believe the concorde includes damages should a team withdraw, for an independent team damages are pointless (as has been demonstrated in the past) because the team will most likely be insolvent by that time, but for manufacturers damages are not irrelevant. Unless obviously the manufacturer becomes insolvent too

Edited by engel, 01 August 2009 - 12:05.

[JPW]

I was referring to the manufacturer teams, I believe the concorde includes damages should a team withdraw, for an independent team damages are pointless (as has been demonstrated in the past) because the team will most likely be insolvent by that time, but for manufacturers damages are not irrelevant. Unless obviously the manufacturer becomes insolvent too

That won't safeguard against teams leaving either, because manufacturers will just transfer the team to an independant entity and let that entity withdraw.

I don't think this agreement gives any guarantees about manufacturers not withdrawing, in fact if the current economic climate continues I would not be surprised if 1 or 2 manufacturers jump ship, Concorde agreement or not.

Edited by JPW, 01 August 2009 - 12:12.

[Calorus]

I was referring to the manufacturer teams, I believe the concorde includes damages should a team withdraw, for an independent team damages are pointless (as has been demonstrated in the past) because the team will most likely be insolvent by that time, but for manufacturers damages are not irrelevant. Unless obviously the manufacturer becomes insolvent too

I wonder if Ferrari have the same terms as the "Lesser Teams"...?

[Captain Tightpants]

Well, I'm happy. It means we can get back to business.

[Anomnader]

I wonder if Ferrari have the same terms as the "Lesser Teams"...?

I think I heard, Ferrari, McLaren and another team (williams?) were asking for a bigger slice for "Historic" reasons

[Calorus]

I think I heard, Ferrari, McLaren and another team (williams?) were asking for a bigger slice for "Historic" reasons

Sounds about right - the natural rebuttal should be "Those historic reasons earn you more in merchandising, sponsorship and quality of applicants... Why on Earth should should it earn you more here, too?"

[primer]

I thought one of the conditions being spoken about this time around is that it commits the manufacturer teams to 2012, which is why BMW had to make their decision to leave now.

Commitment as in financial penalties if the "manufacturers" decided to leave? If they want to leave bad enough, they could transfer or sell the operations to a holding company in Somalia and then shut down their operation. Let's see CVC/Bernard/ go after that.

[engel]

Sounds about right - the natural rebuttal should be "Those historic reasons earn you more in merchandising, sponsorship and quality of applicants... Why on Earth should should it earn you more here, too?"

heh CVC sells merchandising so ... if these teams generate more sales they deserve a bigger slice of the merchandising profits ;)

[bigginge]

I am so glad the teams decided to eventually agree to Max Mosley's cost cutting plan.

They did? I thought that the FIA agreed to the teams "resource restriction" plan.

[GhostR]

I am so glad the teams decided to eventually agree to Max Mosley's cost cutting plan. I hear the budget will go from £80 million to £40 million in 2 years. The agreement only lasts until 2012 though, so as Concorde Agreements go, this is going to be a short term solution.

Where you getting this from? I didn't read that from the article ... what I saw is that the proposal FOTA put forward has been ratified, not Max's. As such, no budget caps but rather an effort to reduce spending to "1990's levels", whatever they may be.

[VicR]

Finally! Now it's official. Good thing Max's budget cap lunacy never happened.

[nudger1964]

That won't safeguard against teams leaving either, because manufacturers will just transfer the team to an independant entity and let that entity withdraw.

I don't think this agreement gives any guarantees about manufacturers not withdrawing, in fact if the current economic climate continues I would not be surprised if 1 or 2 manufacturers jump ship, Concorde agreement or not.

so far as i know the teams are seperate registered companies anyway, so i dont think toyota or renault are signing up to 2012 anymore than they were before signing it...o9ther than from a pr point of view, it would look very bad to have signed the agreement then to wihdraw.

[Calorus]

heh CVC sells merchandising so ... if these teams generate more sales they deserve a bigger slice of the merchandising profits ;)

CVC sells F1 merchandising - that's not quite the same as Team Shirts, Team Caps and Team Pants.

I suspect that most people indulging in the CVC merchandise side like computer games cater for and feature all. In addition the argument has to persist, if you're financially secure and you're required to compete, you owe it to your board to ensure that there are people left to compete against...

[rodlamas]

Was it signed by all the 12 teams due to participate on the 2010 F1 championship?

[JensonF1]

Finally! Now it's official. Good thing Max's budget cap lunacy never happened.

Erm... thats part of the agreement. £40 million in 2011. Whether it's a cap or whatever is not known... by us.

Edited by JensonF1, 01 August 2009 - 12:59.

[VicR]

Erm... thats part of the agreement. £40 million in 2011. Whether it's a cap or whatever is not known... by us.

FOTA have stated from the get go that they want to reduce the costs. But they couldn't do it the way Max wanted. It couldn't be done that fast. We've been over this for months. There are employees in the factories that would have to be let go if Max would have won. Let go instantly. These are REAL people we're talking about not factory robots. Now the teams will be able to downsize their operations during a couple of years. It's sensible.

[JPW]

Was it signed by all the 12 teams due to participate on the 2010 F1 championship?

From what I've read yes, only "the team currently known as team BMW-Sauber" hasn't signed and they have until this Wednesday to do this.

[mattorgen]

Procedurally the FIA is the last one to sign, CVC (FOA) and the teams sign, they give it to the FIA it gets ratified by the WMC and then signed by the FIA president.

Teams and Bernie signed it on Thursday

Care to provide proof of this? Otherwise, I think you will find that the only hard evience we have (the FIA statement) cannot confirm that either the teams or CVC/FOM has signed.

[GhostR]

Erm... thats part of the agreement. £40 million in 2011. Whether it's a cap or whatever is not known... by us.

No, it's not. The agreement is FOTA's "return to the levels of the 1990's" proposal. Max's budget cap proposal is ancient history as far as F1 is concerned. We don't know what the exact "resource restriction" agreement in place is, but we do know one thing: Max's budget cap lunacy is not part of it.

[engel]

Care to provide proof of this? Otherwise, I think you will find that the only hard evience we have (the FIA statement) cannot confirm that either the teams or CVC/FOM has signed.

Your english must suck ...

"All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber."
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/77481

Procedurally it works like I said before, the agreement needs to be ratified by the WMC before the F1 signs it so ... they 're last.

[GhostR]

Care to provide proof of this? Otherwise, I think you will find that the only hard evience we have (the FIA statement) cannot confirm that either the teams or CVC/FOM has signed.

From the Autosport article:

All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber.

[mattorgen]

Your english must suck ...

"All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber."
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/77481

Procedurally it works like I said before, the agreement needs to be ratified by the WMC before the F1 signs it so ... they 're last.

This is NOT proof (from a direct source not a report) of your comment that: "the FIA is the last one to sign, CVC (FOA) and the teams sign, they give it to the FIA it gets ratified by the WMC and then signed by the FIA president." and that "Teams and Bernie signed it on Thursday."

In fact, I think you will find that with previous agreements, CVC/FOM have held off signing for days after they were signed by the teams.

[JensonF1]

FOTA have stated from the get go that they want to reduce the costs. But they couldn't do it the way Max wanted. It couldn't be done that fast. We've been over this for months. There are employees in the factories that would have to be let go if Max would have won. Let go instantly. These are REAL people we're talking about not factory robots. Now the teams will be able to downsize their operations during a couple of years. It's sensible.

True, but if they haven't done it the way Max wanted, Max wouldn't have just put pen to paper.

[mattorgen]

From the Autosport article:

Again, this is not proof - until we have it from a direct source then we have no evidence of this. For example, why has FOTA not put out a release about this? Why is it not on f1.com? Don't count your chickens before they have hatched...

[GhostR]

True, but if they haven't done it the way Max wanted, Max wouldn't have just put pen to paper.

Max got sidelined by the CVC and FOTA working together. The resource restrictions are FOTA's proposal, and Max has not got what he wanted (a full budget cap).

[GhostR]

Again, this is not proof - until we have it from a direct source then we have no evidence of this. For example, why has FOTA not put out a release about this? Why is it not on f1.com? Don't count your chickens before they have hatched...

Because the press release only went out today and Formula1.com and FOTA have both shown in the past that they tend to be slow getting stuff out?

The quotes about BMW being given a deadline to sign (or not sign) is indicative that all the other teams have, in fact, signed. The lack of any quotes about "now that the FIA has signed it only remains for the teams to sign..." is indicative that the teams have already signed.

So while we don't yet have a direct source saying the teams have signed, all available circumstantial evidence points to them having signed - in particular the PR stating that a legally binding agreement between FIA, FOM and the teams now exists. Especially as the last sticking point preventing the Concorde being signed by the FIA were two things for the teams to agree on (2010 tech regs and resource restriction). That both are now agreed by the teams (confirmed by direct sources) indicates that the Concorde is now fully signed.

[VicR]

True, but if they haven't done it the way Max wanted, Max wouldn't have just put pen to paper.

We're back to the "Irresistible Force and Immovable Object" discussion. We know the force budged the object. Max couldn't win against Ferrari, yes, and the other FOTA teams. Too much was at stake at the break away threat was real. Max misjudged his powers. He lost and now he signed.

IMHO there has been a huge communication breakdown in all of this. Everybody basicly wanted the same but everybody had different ideas how to get there. In a financial crisis you can't just break. You have to accelerate as well. It's a fine line. But panic will never help. You have to be sensible and analyze everything carefully. But panicing never helped anyone.

Edited by VicR, 01 August 2009 - 13:41.

[mattorgen]

The quotes about BMW being given a deadline to sign (or not sign) is indicative that all the other teams have, in fact, signed.

I'm not doubting you but where are the quotes saying this?

in particular the PR stating that a legally binding agreement between FIA, FOM and the teams now exists.

Again, I'm not doubting you but where does the PR state this?

[sreevishnu]

I'm not doubting you but where are the quotes saying this?

did u read the article in autosport.com??

here it is
All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber.

AUTOSPORT understands that the team has been given a deadline of next Wednesday (5 August) to sign as the German manufacturer decides whether to open the operation up to a potential rescue package following its decision to quit F1 at the end of the season.

[JensonF1]

We're back to the "Irresistible Force and Immovable Object" discussion. We know the force budged the object. Max couldn't win against Ferrari, yes, and the other FOTA teams. Too much was at stake at the break away threat was real. Max misjudged his powers. He lost and now he signed.

IMHO there has been a huge communication breakdown in all of this. Everybody basicly wanted the same but everybody had different ideas how to get there. In a financial crisis you can't just break. You have to acclerate as well. It's a fine line. But panic will never help. You have to be sensible and analyze everything carefully. But panicing never helped anyone.

Indeed as Bernie said, the document is just one massive compromise after the other. But a compromise on both sides. Max. FOTA. Bernie. CVC. They lot. All compromised.

Bernie: "Well this is a big problem now. We have been two and a half years, or three years trying to sign this document. In the meantime there has been a void and Max has had to make decisions which should have been made by the people who are involved. And that is what has caused the trouble. So when they start trying to make an agreement, everybody is thinking what is good for them. And they wanted to change things. So in the end you have got what I said is bad for democracy, you have got a compromise. So the document when it is prepared will be a compromise."

So I don't have high hopes that F1 will be going anywhere much in the next 2 years, its just business as usual but no breakaway. What I really want to see (I couldn't care less about who spends what or who gets the share of the pie or who has the biggest yacht) is the overtaking regulations being honed, so the cars can follow each other closely around bends. But now it seems we won't have this.

[mattorgen]

did u read the article in autosport.com??

here it is
All the teams entered for the 2010 Formula 1 world championship have signed up to the agreement with exception of BMW Sauber.

AUTOSPORT understands that the team has been given a deadline of next Wednesday (5 August) to sign as the German manufacturer decides whether to open the operation up to a potential rescue package following its decision to quit F1 at the end of the season.

Nowehere have I seen direct quotes or a statement from an official source saying that the teams and/or CVC/FOM has signed. If you want to take second hand analysis as proof of this then go ahead but, as I mentioned above, previous agreements (such as the Barcelona MoU) were initially signed by one party despite being (wrongly) reported to be signed by all relevant parties.

[JensonF1]

Nowehere have I seen direct quotes or a statement from an official source saying that the teams and/or CVC/FOM has signed. If you want to take second hand analysis as proof of this then go ahead but, as I mentioned above, previous agreements (such as the Barcelona MoU) were initially signed by one party despite being (wrongly) reported to be signed by all relevant parties.

But when have Autosport been massively wrong before? They are the most reliable source on the internet for F1 news along with the BBC. This ain't PlanetF1.

Edited by JensonF1, 01 August 2009 - 13:49.