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3 tenths performance boost for Button?


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#1 JensonF1

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:14

I was interested to note Honda's behaviour when they left Brackley. Apparently they flew their Honda engines and in-development KERS back to Japan having very suddenly loaded all their technology into the back of a van. The mechanics at soon-to-be Brawn then ripped off the back of the car in order to mount it to the new Mercedes powerplant, but the car already had KERS on it's spec sheet and was designed for it.

This leaves the question open... with Button and Brawn seemingly now so far adrift of Red Bull (and even McLaren) on pace and in need of a quick turnaround, how hard would it be for them to simply ask Mercedes for KERS?

Apparently the guys at Mercedes says KERS on the Brawn would give it 3 tenths.

Having seen how Hamilton went at Hungary I think the difference there was more like a second a lap - the second a lap he'd have lost behind a slower car in 5th or 6th from not being able to pass :lol:

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#2 krapmeister

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:22

I was interested to note Honda's behaviour when they left Brackley. Apparently they flew their Honda engines and in-development KERS back to Japan having very suddenly loaded all their technology into the back of a van. The mechanics at soon-to-be Brawn then ripped off the back of the car in order to mount it to the new Mercedes powerplant, but the car already had KERS on it's spec sheet and was designed for it.

This leaves the question open... with Button and Brawn seemingly now so far adrift of Red Bull (and even McLaren) on pace and in need of a quick turnaround, how hard would it be for them to simply ask Mercedes for KERS?

Apparently the guys at Mercedes says KERS on the Brawn would give it 3 tenths.

Having seen how Hamilton went at Hungary I think the difference there was more like a second a lap - the second a lap he'd have lost behind a slower car in 5th or 6th from not being able to pass :lol:



But the Brawn can't get its tyres to work now let alone with KERS on the car...

#3 Thunder Chat

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:31

yeah, everything KERS has shown this year suggests it isn't just a bolt on solution, it would take them a few races at least to get the car working properly with it/ get the balance right (seems a particular issue with brake balance?) by which time they may be in even more trouble.



#4 Matt Somers

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:36

The Mercedes KERS is a world apart from the Honda varient. BGP will not run KERS as its too difficult to integrate at a cost thats suitable.....

#5 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:41

Firstly, as i understand it Mercedes KERS unit fits in the sidepods, which on the McLaren are pretty bulky and on the Brawn are pretty slim. So i dont think they'd be able to fit it in there physically without alot of work.

Secondly, their current tyre issues could very well become worse with KERS onboard and 25kg less weight to move around.

#6 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:46

We saw teams like BMW and Renault take months and months trying to get KERS to work, and they still ended up scrapping the idea.

I think a car that has been developed for so long without KERS isn't going to take well to it just being 'bolted-on'. I think Mclaren and Ferrari have had success because they've stuck with it and developed their cars around it.

If BrawnGP(who have limited resources this year) were to have used KERS, it would have happened by now. Its just too late into the season. They're just gonna need to focus on aerodynamic development and getting a good setup for the race weekends to try and ride out their current points advantage.

#7 Melbourne Park

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 13:20

I was interested to note Honda's behaviour when they left Brackley. Apparently they flew their Honda engines and in-development KERS back to Japan having very suddenly loaded all their technology into the back of a van. The mechanics at soon-to-be Brawn then ripped off the back of the car in order to mount it to the new Mercedes powerplant, but the car already had KERS on it's spec sheet and was designed for it.


Honda were developing two separate cars: one with KERS, and the other without. The KERS car was to be used initially. When Honda left, the KERS project was dropped. The current car was never KERS compatible. There are Ross Brawn quotes about their two cars being developed, and that initially they would not use KERS. So no MB KERS for Brawn.

Even if the chassis was able to run KERS, the lack of testing restricts the opportunity to re-develop a car. The team's resources are also well down on last year's. The last upgrades for Brawn were supposed to turn things around, yet they appeared to loose comparative ground. Which means IMO, the risk of developing for KERS, would be enormous. With KERS, they would start better, and then likely go to mid field at best. Better to use their limited resources, and try and keep developments efficient and effective.

And make sure the vehicles are reliable. They need to put enough pressure on RBR, for RBR to have some failures. If Jenson should have a failure, suddenly Jenson could be less than 10 points in front. Brawn want to prolong that scenario from happening for as long as is possible, hopefully up to Brazil. Risking KERS would risk the whole championship, and possibly chuck it away in just one weekend.

If the impossible were to happen, Rubens would be the guinea pig. And he might be quite useful too at the start - they could have him get around the first corner, and then block the field. The RBRs would keep clear of him as well ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 13 August 2009 - 13:22.


#8 Touti

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 13:37

As RB said himself, they have to look back at what they've done and try to understand what changed. The car didn't go from good to bad overnight with nothing done on it. They had no problems warming up the tires at the beginning of the season and now they do so something changed, they have to find what it is. I don't think introducing new unknowns into the equation would help them resolve this.

Edited by Touti, 13 August 2009 - 13:38.


#9 HSJ

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 13:49

But the Brawn can't get its tyres to work now let alone with KERS on the car...


True, so Brawn should try the KERS on Rubens' car for a race or two first. They are falling behind rapidly and have nothing to lose by doing so. Red Bull and McLaren are the fastest cars now, Renault could be 3rd and Brawn only 4th (debatable and could be track-specific). At this rate either MW or SV will be WDC.


#10 pingu666

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 14:43

if you want a 3/10ths boost cut alonso in half and stick him on your car..

#11 JensonF1

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 14:52

Firstly, as i understand it Mercedes KERS unit fits in the sidepods, which on the McLaren are pretty bulky and on the Brawn are pretty slim. So i dont think they'd be able to fit it in there physically without alot of work.

Secondly, their current tyre issues could very well become worse with KERS onboard and 25kg less weight to move around.


Apparently the Mercedes KERS unit itself is the lightest on the grid at 5kg. A motor producing 85bhp, running at 1 third of it's full capacity, weighing in at 5kg. That is extraordinary.

Secondly the batteries, in the sidepods and possibly under the driver, are what make up all the extra weight of KERS for McLaren. But they are just ballasts with wires connected. Surely not hard to mount?

#12 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 15:12

Apparently the Mercedes KERS unit itself is the lightest on the grid at 5kg. A motor producing 85bhp, running at 1 third of it's full capacity, weighing in at 5kg. That is extraordinary.

Secondly the batteries, in the sidepods and possibly under the driver, are what make up all the extra weight of KERS for McLaren. But they are just ballasts with wires connected. Surely not hard to mount?


Its more like 25kg according to Norbert Haug himself.

#13 scarbs

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 15:15

The Brawn was designed with a flywheel in front of the fuel tank, the Merc KERS systems uses a large battery mounted in the right hand sidepod and a nearly as large control unit in the left one.
With Brawns waisted sidepods, they would have to make the sidepods far more bulky to accommodate these, losing rear downforce from the poorer airflow over the diffuser in the process. Plus robbing some 25Kg of forward mounted ballast to be replaced by the mid mounted KERS set up, forcing a 2% rearwards weight shift. To balance the car they would then need to add more rear wing to offset the diffuser and weight dist’ changes, losing top speed in the process. Then the lost front end load (downforce and weight) would rob the car of front end grip, probably reversing their tyre troubles due to a lack of front tyre temperature.


#14 Demo.

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 02:27

As others have quiet eloquently said its far more than just bolt on and go.
Infact you are better off considering it a completely different car to what they are running now due to the massive changes that would be needed.
And as we all saw its far more difficult to get a KER's fitted car working well and has taken what most would consider the two top F1 teams 1/2 a season to start to get it right Brawn don't have 1/2 a season left.
Better IMHO to go back to when the car was working well and work forward to see what part(s) started to degrade the cars performance.
Don't forget most races the teams have had more than just one new part fitted so it could be as simple as one of the parts or as difficult as multiple parts form multiple packages just not working together.
Whatever the problem is I am certain Brawn will be working flat out to find and fix the problem(s) and am certain no matter what KERs would just be adding far more problems than it helped out with.

#15 klyster

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 05:34

3 tenths performance boost for Button?


How about a button for a 3 tenths performance boost?;)

oh well......

Edited by klyster, 14 August 2009 - 05:36.


#16 rodlamas

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 09:38

True, so Brawn should try the KERS on Rubens' car for a race or two first. They are falling behind rapidly and have nothing to lose by doing so. Red Bull and McLaren are the fastest cars now, Renault could be 3rd and Brawn only 4th (debatable and could be track-specific). At this rate either MW or SV will be WDC.


Brawn hasn't got the money and their Mercedes engine deal doesn't include KERS (contrary to Force India's which includes engines, gearboxes, hydraulics and KERS). So they would have to renegotiate and I cannot see that happening since we are well into the season.

And the most important argument: system integration rules. So they would have to do thousands of kms to understand how to use it, to gather its reliability and get rid of its inherent teething problems and also the drivers would have got to change their driving style considering the KERS harvest settings and also how the drivers would brake and also how it would affect weight distribution, balance and their problems regarding tire warming (KERS would transfer weight to the back making it even more difficult to warm the front tires, causing even more understeer).

Bearing in my mind all of what's been said above, it's more possible for me to accept a US$ 3 bill than imagining we'll see a Brawn car with KERS this season, regardless if it's a Honda (does it still exist?) or a Mercedes system.

#17 potmotr

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:19

Button has clearly spent his summer break deeply concerned with the tyres issues his Brawn is suffering. :)

http://www.dailymail...-St-Tropez.html

#18 One

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 10:20

Most Slow tracks where Kers can make it most advantage is now gone, after Monaco and Hungaroing. We are going to Monza, Spa Szuka and so on, so it is hard to imagine that the Kers-Brawn will make benefits out of the efforts. See I rather think that Brawn must be quiet for a while on it and wait forthe fast cirquit to come. We see what happens, if RBR do have a better car then Brawn is nowhere to gain their ground, but if the advantage gained by RBR that it is track/temperature related the BRanws may havemore chances with no Kers.

#19 Dalton007

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:41

Button has clearly spent his summer break deeply concerned with the tyres issues his Brawn is suffering. :)

http://www.dailymail...-St-Tropez.html



:lol: She'd make you forget anything. :love:

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#20 potmotr

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 11:48

:lol: She'd make you forget anything. :love:


Yep, she'd be a model girlfriend.

#21 rodlamas

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 12:53

Most Slow tracks where Kers can make it most advantage is now gone, after Monaco and Hungaroing. We are going to Monza, Spa Szuka and so on, so it is hard to imagine that the Kers-Brawn will make benefits out of the efforts. See I rather think that Brawn must be quiet for a while on it and wait forthe fast cirquit to come. We see what happens, if RBR do have a better car then Brawn is nowhere to gain their ground, but if the advantage gained by RBR that it is track/temperature related the BRanws may havemore chances with no Kers.


Benefits from KERS are on stop-go tracks. And the shorter (in time) the laps are, the bigger is its benefit.

Ferrari and Mclaren will have an advantage for this final part of the season. But for Monza and Interlagos that will significantly huge.

#22 nudger1964

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 13:03

As RB said himself, they have to look back at what they've done and try to understand what changed. The car didn't go from good to bad overnight with nothing done on it. They had no problems warming up the tires at the beginning of the season and now they do so something changed, they have to find what it is. I don't think introducing new unknowns into the equation would help them resolve this.



the trouble with this notion is that the car hashad to be developed to keep ahead the field, so yes it has effected the tyres somewhat, but you cant just back track and expect to still be on the pace. If they went back to turkey spec, then they would still be off the pace, albeit for different reasons. bst thing to do is get the geometry working with where they are now, else they stuff themselves

#23 rodlamas

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 13:06

the trouble with this notion is that the car hashad to be developed to keep ahead the field, so yes it has effected the tyres somewhat, but you cant just back track and expect to still be on the pace. If they went back to turkey spec, then they would still be off the pace, albeit for different reasons. bst thing to do is get the geometry working with where they are now, else they stuff themselves


I think that's something they introduced at Turkey. The temperature there was atrociously high so they thought that update was fantastic. From then on, they started to update the car from the development path that has started at Turkey.

And the result we already know.

Valencia might prove a bit different from the last few races as I expect temps to be high there. But at Spa they will in deep s***.

#24 Jay

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 17:38

Brawn are all punched out...

Ross had the technical smarts to deliver an early season sucker punch, whilst Ferrari and McLaren recovered from last years title challenge hangover...

In previous years, nobody would have fought to challenge them, so they didn't expect it again this year.

The only person in any condition to translate his technical smarts into a WDC this year is Newey. Brawn has a lack of ££££ to inject into his creative dreaming..

This is, of course, only my opinion. Although, it is there for all to see.

Peace

Jay

#25 Touti

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:01

the trouble with this notion is that the car hashad to be developed to keep ahead the field, so yes it has effected the tyres somewhat, but you cant just back track and expect to still be on the pace. If they went back to turkey spec, then they would still be off the pace, albeit for different reasons. bst thing to do is get the geometry working with where they are now, else they stuff themselves


No of course not but if back tracking allows them to understand which change(s) did that, why and how then it gives them something to work on. My understanding of what I've read about Brawn's comments (and Button's) is that they know their problem is that the tires don't warm up but don't know why. Finding the cause of a problem usually leads to its solution.


#26 peroa

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:03

if you want a 3/10ths boost cut alonso in half and stick him on your car..


:rotfl: