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Will all motorsport be banned eventually?


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#1 zepunishment

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:08

Ok, the thought happened across my mind today that motorsport is one of the only sporting activities that in the real world is illegal. i.e, if you take your car out on the road and drive as fast as possible, you'll get fined and/or arrested. Personally, I'm fine with motorsport on private grounds on a circuit as it's up to us if we all want to take the risk and race/spectate etc. But in the future, one could really see some sort of p.c. nutjob banning all motorsport as mirroring an illegal activity, i.e. speeding. its not that out of the question really, switzerland did it....

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#2 Beef Eater

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:14

Box is number one to be banned.

#3 pingu666

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:15

places like the IOM will still have it, too important to the local economy to drop..

#4 mursuka80

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:19

If our goverment tries to ban Rallying,then our parlament will burn :o i will bring the gasoline.

#5 Jedi_F1

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 20:24

2 reasons why it could happen once...

-If a majority of the world leaders find it's too bad for the environment ... big studies and projects are on the way to improve that, so we're working on it!
-If it stays too dangerous for drivers & spectactors, but it's already a big difference against decades ago.. but never think we are all save and nothing can happen.

2 big reasons why this could bring an opposite effect and because of those it will not happen:
-illegal racing will grow
-motorsport is not only a sport but it's a huge industry... you don't kill an industry and jobs just like that.

I follow it almost 20 years.. I never felt the racing encouraged dangerous driving on the roads.


#6 BullHead

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 21:35

It makes loads of money. Govts like loads of money. No bans...

#7 nada12

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Posted 14 August 2009 - 23:52

Ok, the thought happened across my mind today that motorsport is one of the only sporting activities that in the real world is illegal. i.e, if you take your car out on the road and drive as fast as possible, you'll get fined and/or arrested. Personally, I'm fine with motorsport on private grounds on a circuit as it's up to us if we all want to take the risk and race/spectate etc. But in the future, one could really see some sort of p.c. nutjob banning all motorsport as mirroring an illegal activity, i.e. speeding. its not that out of the question really, switzerland did it....

You'll also get arrested if you punch guys in the face like in boxing, or if you dish out vicious bodychecks to strangers like in hockey or football, or if you dash down a slope on your ski's with maximum speed. Dont mean to sound condescending, but practically every sport has elements that are only legal within the confinements of that sport, so that's not really much of a point you have there.

Edited by nada12, 14 August 2009 - 23:54.


#8 Mary Popsins

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 00:04

Switzerland lifted the ban two years ago.

They probably had in mind that Federer is a one of and that they won't be able to keep the America Cup for ever.

It's illegal to throw javelins in a crowd.

#9 stevewf1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 00:09

I guess it would go the way of "public opinion" - which could be manipulated by special interest groups and politics. From a purely environmental standpoint, we all know there are many things which pollute more than "frivolous" motorsport - like flying 747's everywhere - or millions of folks driving their SUV's to the market...

Even if it is banned, there will be "illegal" competitions held here and there which will lead to a safer, more organized form. We've already been down that road before.


#10 zepunishment

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 01:19

You'll also get arrested if you punch guys in the face like in boxing, or if you dish out vicious bodychecks to strangers like in hockey or football, or if you dash down a slope on your ski's with maximum speed. Dont mean to sound condescending, but practically every sport has elements that are only legal within the confinements of that sport, so that's not really much of a point you have there.


thats a good point that you bring up, and i agree that many other sports fit the same template, but i don't think that this is an angle thats been discussed much from a motorsport pov. I think one point is that motorsport really does need a green cred in some way or another to really ensure things keep going. i do think that f1 needs to try harder in this regard. we've got teams spending $150 million plus a year, and a hell of a lot of that gets spent on silly little things like flip ups which lets face it, are pretty useless for next years carolla. it is interesting to think that one day f1 could gain a negative rep though as well as motorsport in general, especially with the scenario of government 'speed kills' campaigns and then said government investing massively in a grand prix, it could easily be picked up by opposition parties etc.


#11 WildmouseX

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 01:56

like anything else that governments have tried to ban, an effort to do so will push it more and more onto the streets and cause far more danger to the populace as a whole. drivers will always race each other, without closed circuts and racing series to compete in, they'll still go do it public roads or not.

#12 Demo.

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 04:32

I do not think they would ever ban racing from a safety POV the FIA and teams have done far too much work improving and are constantly striving for greater improvements to safety for that to ever be an issue.
However from a green perspective i could see it being banned not soon not maybe even in 100 years but at some point in the future if nothing is done they will decide having a planet we can still live on is more important than having racing.
I am not saying racing will kill the planet just that from a green issue POV racing could well be seen as something that could be removed to reduce greenhouse immissions (part of an action plan not the whole action plan)
where will it move towards perhaps electric cars/ or fuel cells/hydrogen fuel may well end up the way racing goes.
Don't scoff the Isle of Mann TT held its first electric tt race this year so the bikes are certainly working far harder at the green issue than most F1 fans would want.
In F1 KERs is just the first step in a very long journey.

#13 MinT

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:14

I'm pretty sure setting up a football match in the middle of the M25 is illegal too - cant see em banning footaball as its played inside purpose built stadiums - thats what motorsport needs, purpose built tracks off the public roads where it is perfectly legal to race....oh wait

#14 Rob29

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:33

Switzerland lifted the ban two years ago.

Switzerland banned only racing-hill climbs(mountain races) have always taken place.They never had a permanent circuit.
Just about all sport would be banned if some nimbys get their way.I have seen aminal rights people objecting to horse racing as well as bullfighting & foxhunting.I think it was some leader of the GLC (or Birmingham?) who wanted to ban all competitive sport in schools. :(

Edited by Rob29, 15 August 2009 - 07:41.


#15 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:50

Motoport will only be banned when cars are banned. Jeremy Clarkson put it best when he said we can be reasonably certain when the first car race was held: as son as they finished building the second car. As long as tere are cars, there will be car racing.

#16 Slowinfastout

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 07:59

You're not Swiss, arent' you?

Hopefully 'motoport' will survive... ( :p ;) Captain)

Edited by Slowinfastout, 15 August 2009 - 08:00.


#17 cheapracer

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 08:14

It's illegal to throw javelins in a crowd.


Oh now you tell me....


Correct me if I'm wrong but the Swiss banned racing after the Lemons 1955 accident?

I'm not sure what they felt it had to do with them, maybe some of the spectators killed were Swiss?

Oh and then I find this...

http://en.wikinews.o...on_motor_racing


#18 Slowinfastout

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 08:18

Oh and then I find this...

http://en.wikinews.o...on_motor_racing


You can buy Sauber and raise Swiss motorsport from the dead! ..but beware, everyone wants to do that ;)


#19 cheapracer

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 08:21

Don't scoff the Isle of Mann TT held its first electric tt race this year



Yeah I heard that, oh hang on, no I didn't ... :lol:

Electric racing reminds me of the worlds most successful food; The Chip, also known as French Fries, has 3 ingredients - potato, oil and salt. Take one away and they taste like shit (especially the potato!).

Motor Racing has 3 ingredients - speed, thrills and SOUND. Take one away and you have shit.

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#20 Nobody

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 08:22

If 'mixed martial arts' (like UFC) can be legal (and deemed a sport), motorsport has no worries.

#21 jez6363

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:16

Yeah I heard that, oh hang on, no I didn't ... :lol:

Electric racing reminds me of the worlds most successful food; The Chip, also known as French Fries, has 3 ingredients - potato, oil and salt. Take one away and they taste like shit (especially the potato!).

Motor Racing has 3 ingredients - speed, thrills and SOUND. Take one away and you have shit.

Electric F1 cars with ghetto blasters for wings...

Or maybe they could get Bose working on some sort of tube sound system - lots of air flow there to make sound with... Hmm - F1 cars that sound like incoming jets - not sure that would be a bad thing actually - I am not so wedded to V8 or V12 sound as many are I guess. I can imagine the regulations though - must emit at least 130db at 200kph...

#22 Rob29

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:25

Oh now you tell me....


Correct me if I'm wrong but the Swiss banned racing after the Lemons 1955 accident?

I'm not sure what they felt it had to do with them, maybe some of the spectators killed were Swiss?

Oh and then I find this...

http://en.wikinews.o...on_motor_racing

Swiss banned racing in 1956-the only country to do so.May have more to do with previous accident at Geneva when spectators were killled due to no safety barriers?.As I said before 'racing' including motorbikes ,was defined as that in which overtaking takes place.Sprints,slaloms and hill climbs+ rally stages have always taken place.Swiss Clio & F.Renault series last year included races at Dijon,Monza,Spa,Hockenheim & a swiss hill climb.
No news to date of a circuit being built.

Edited by Rob29, 15 August 2009 - 15:26.


#23 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:58

>
^ Personally I hope so because there no real racing anymore, and I for one am of this racertainment B*.
Politicians should force a return to relevance/true motorsport or wipeout anything that goes against this.

#24 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 16:01

>
^ Personally I hope so because there no real racing anymore, and I for one am of this racertainment B*.
Politicians should force a return to relevance/true motorsport or wipeout anything that goes against this.

And why would politicians care about motor-racing?

#25 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 16:06

And why would politicians care about motor-racing?




Why was Red Bull banned from having an exhibition in Austria in 2008 ?!
Why did politicians threatened to ban open wheel and sport-prototypes unless thee safety improves in the 60s and 70s ?!

#26 nada12

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 17:07

thats a good point that you bring up, and i agree that many other sports fit the same template, but i don't think that this is an angle thats been discussed much from a motorsport pov. I think one point is that motorsport really does need a green cred in some way or another to really ensure things keep going. i do think that f1 needs to try harder in this regard. we've got teams spending $150 million plus a year, and a hell of a lot of that gets spent on silly little things like flip ups which lets face it, are pretty useless for next years carolla. it is interesting to think that one day f1 could gain a negative rep though as well as motorsport in general, especially with the scenario of government 'speed kills' campaigns and then said government investing massively in a grand prix, it could easily be picked up by opposition parties etc.

True, in some circles motorsport already has a bad rep for the reasons you cited. Those are effectively the reasons why circuit racing continues to be banned here in Switzerland. I hope other coutries wont follow our lead  ;)

Oh now you tell me....


Correct me if I'm wrong but the Swiss banned racing after the Lemons 1955 accident?

I'm not sure what they felt it had to do with them, maybe some of the spectators killed were Swiss?

Oh and then I find this...

http://en.wikinews.o...on_motor_racing

That article isnt correct, its still banned here and will be for the foreseeable future. The initiative to lift the ban was evetually rejected.

#27 Johnrambo

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 17:15

I think there won't be much motorsport going on when we start to run out of oil...

#28 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 18:11

Synchronized swimming should be banned.

It is impossible to stop people from racing. As long as there is some kind of motor attached to wheels people will be racing.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 16 August 2009 - 02:21.


#29 Direct Drive

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 18:40

It will certainly change from what we have now.
All kinds of permutations from alternative energy to dictated consumption to alternative energy sources.
Next five years, of course depending upon the rag's price of a barrel of crude, will be very different.

#30 Demo.

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 19:47

Yeah I heard that, oh hang on, no I didn't ... :lol:

Electric racing reminds me of the worlds most successful food; The Chip, also known as French Fries, has 3 ingredients - potato, oil and salt. Take one away and they taste like shit (especially the potato!).

Motor Racing has 3 ingredients - speed, thrills and SOUND. Take one away and you have shit.



Re:- your not hearing about the races
so is that my fault or yours?
People world wide did hear and consider them of them enough importance that they coverd them and not just in the racing press either
http://www.motorcycl...GP-Results.aspx
or
http://www.techradar...-tt-race-591453
More importantly they spectators (including me) also enjoyed the 150MPH bikes.
Yes they were different but that is all.

"Among the competitors are past TT winners and a number of seasoned motor cycle racing pros, all of whom are excited by the challenges and prospect of racing clean machines,"

Different but the same!
The track was the same the racing was the same the enjoyment was the same.

All sport changes over time and while it is far too easy for the nay sayers to Pooh Pooh such changes in the short term. Long term they all add up to benefits. After all far too many people were just like you when it came to such stupid things as seatbelts in F1 cars would you argue they are not needed or detract from motorsport?
BY the way i think you need to check up on a few facts chips are not the most successful food even the spud in all its forms is not the most successfull food try rice it beats spuds in all its forms by 10 to 1 :wave:

Edited by Demo., 15 August 2009 - 19:53.


#31 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 19:54

Re:- your not hearing about the races
so is that my fault or yours?
People world wide did hear and consider them of them enough importance that they coverd them and not just in the racing press either
http://www.motorcycl...GP-Results.aspx
or
http://www.techradar...-tt-race-591453
More importantly they spectators (including me) also enjoyed the 150MPH bikes.
Yes they were different but that is all.
Different but the same!
The track was the same the racing was the same the enjoyment was the same.

All sport changes over time and while it is far too easy for the nay sayers to Pooh Pooh such changes in the short term. Long term they all add up to benefits. After all far too many people were just like you when it came to such stupid things as seatbelts in F1 cars would you argue they are not needed or detract from motorsport?
BY the way i think you need to check up on a few facts chips are not the most successful food even the spud in all its forms is not the most successfull food try rice it beats spuds in all its forms by 10 to 1 :wave:




Forget it, cheapracer is man with a mind stuck in the 60s and 70s.
He doesn't grasp how the world is and will change.

F1, I fear, is a dinosaur heading for extinction, lead by too many old men that are out of touch and out of time.

Good thing there's a hope with the motos.

Edited by DOF_power, 15 August 2009 - 19:57.


#32 ForeverF1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 20:11

Re:- your not hearing about the races


Re:- re:-, I read it that because the bikes were electric, they made no sound (or very little), not that cheapracer had not heard OF them.

Different ways of interpreting humour I guess. :) :wave:

#33 Demo.

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 20:25

Re:- re:-, I read it that because the bikes were electric, they made no sound (or very little), not that cheapracer had not heard OF them.

Different ways of interpreting humour I guess. :) :wave:



True if i missed such a joke sorry i did not 'get it' untill you pointed it out.
shame on me if that was what he meant :|
However i still stick by what i said and do think they are valid points.
Would you argue that ForeverF1?

After all it may have been quieter on the track but boy it made more noise in the racing world and other press than any other race(s) at this years TT.
What was even better was the way the 2 wheeled fraternity embraced them.


P.S. they did make quite a bit of sound but yes very very different but wind and tyre sounds never change the only difference was we got a chance for the first time to hear them mixed up with the motor sounds :stoned:

Edited by Demo., 15 August 2009 - 20:29.


#34 ForeverF1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 20:38

True if i missed such a joke sorry i did not 'get it' untill you pointed it out.
shame on me if that was what he meant :|
However i still stick by what i said and do think they are valid points.
Would you argue that ForeverF1?

After all it may have been quieter on the track but boy it made more noise in the racing world and other press than any other race(s) at this years TT.
What was even better was the way the 2 wheeled fraternity embraced them.


P.S. they did make quite a bit of sound but yes very very different but wind and tyre sounds never change the only difference was we got a chance for the first time to hear them mixed up with the motor sounds :stoned:


Not knowing cheapracer, I have no idea whether his mind is set in the '60s or '70s, so, on that basis, I could not argue.

That F1 is a dinosaur heading for extinction because it is lead by 'old men', I would argue with on the grounds that they have not always been 'old men' and other younger men will eventually take over from them, just as they took over from the 'old men' of the past. :wave:

#35 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:02

That F1 is a dinosaur heading for extinction because it is lead by 'old men', I would argue with on the grounds that they have not always been 'old men' and other younger men will eventually take over from them, just as they took over from the 'old men' of the past. :wave:




These old men have been around since the 70s.
And I doubt a new class is coming that has the cojones, vision and leadership qualities needed.

#36 ForeverF1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:13

These old men have been around since the 70s.


:lol: Well, to me, the '70s is quite recent.

And, of course, the cars and technology has stood still since then? I think not.

#37 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:34

:lol: Well, to me, the '70s is quite recent.

And, of course, the cars and technology has stood still since then? I think not.




70s as in positions of power.
Bernie's been in F1 since the 50s or so.

The technology has gone to peaks and then backwards and there no innovation or relevance anymore.


#38 ForeverF1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:53

The technology has gone to peaks and then backwards and there no innovation or relevance anymore.


So, if you were to put a time line on technology, are you saying that the technology peaks in an earlier time frame were greater or lesser than the peaks later in that time line?

But, we digress, motor racing will never be banned (imho) whilst there are men and motors, whether they be internal combustion of fossil fuels, or, by any other means of propulsion.

#39 DOF_power

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:58

So, if you were to put a time line on technology, are you saying that the technology peaks in an earlier time frame were greater or lesser than the peaks later in that time line?

But, we digress, motor racing will never be banned (imho) whilst there are men and motors, whether they be internal combustion of fossil fuels, or, by any other means of propulsion.




The active ride era was the peak of GP racing technology. And the 6 wheelers and fan car of aerodynamics.

All the gazillions wasted since on inferior aerodynamics and inferior passive suspensions/mechanical grip and balance make F1 the biggest tragedy in the history of motorsport.
It was all just a monumental waste of money and time.

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#40 ForeverF1

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 22:28

The active ride era was the peak of GP racing technology. And the 6 wheelers and fan car of aerodynamics.


Personally, I would love to see the reincarnation of active suspension.

With the advanced knowledge of those systems and metals, I think they would be truly awesome machines and worthy of being called the pinnacle of motor sport.

I don't think the Tyrrell P34 was anything outstanding though even if it was a nice concept.

The 'Fan Car' BT46 was just downright dangerous for following cars and was rightfully banned.

Aerodynamics have certainly advanced in there concept, but, IMHO the 'ground effect' concept should never have been banned but allowed to progress.

#41 DOF_power

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 00:09

Personally, I would love to see the reincarnation of active suspension.

With the advanced knowledge of those systems and metals, I think they would be truly awesome machines and worthy of being called the pinnacle of motor sport.

I don't think the Tyrrell P34 was anything outstanding though even if it was a nice concept.

The 'Fan Car' BT46 was just downright dangerous for following cars and was rightfully banned.

Aerodynamics have certainly advanced in there concept, but, IMHO the 'ground effect' concept should never have been banned but allowed to progress.




I meant the Williams enhanced ground effects 6 wheeler, it had 4 times the aero efficiency of modern/contemporary aerodynamics.

#42 ForeverF1

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 01:26

I meant the Williams enhanced ground effects 6 wheeler, it had 4 times the aero efficiency of modern/contemporary aerodynamics.


But, the Williams FW08B never actually raced did it.

#43 Victor_RO

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 09:51

But, the Williams FW08B never actually raced did it.


It never raced because of various reasons: the 6-wheeler ban coming back into force in '83, the flat bottom rule (though that was imposed after the '82 season finished) and the fact that Rosberg's consistency, combined with major issues for his title contenders, meant that there was no need to risk bringing this car into action.

#44 BullHead

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 16:07

Under FiA I thought racing was banned :p

#45 DOF_power

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 20:45

Under FiA I thought racing was banned :p




It was actually.

#46 J. Edlund

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 23:18

I think there won't be much motorsport going on when we start to run out of oil...


Oil production rates will not affect motorsport. We can switch to oil free fuels and lubricants today if we want. Unlike road cars the total energy use from motorsport is small enough for such a switch and the increase in cost would be insignificant, or may even lead to a decrease in cost. For instance ethanol can be produced for arounbd 50 euro cents per liter, while this is more expensive than gasoline on an energy basis, it's actually cheaper than most oil based racing fuels.

The 'Fan Car' BT46 was just downright dangerous for following cars and was rightfully banned.


Actually, the fan car was never banned. It was withdrawn by Brabham.

The argument that it was dangerous for following cars are vague at best.

#47 ForeverF1

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 02:50

Actually, the fan car was never banned. It was withdrawn by Brabham.

The argument that it was dangerous for following cars are vague at best.


According to Ecclestone's biographer Terry Lovell, the heads of the other FOCA teams, led by Colin Chapman threatened to withdraw their support for Ecclestone unless he withdrew the BT46B. Ecclestone negotiated a deal within FOCA whereby the car would have continued for another three races before Brabham would voluntarily withdraw it. However, the CSI intervened to declare that henceforth fan cars would not be allowed and the car never raced again in Formula One. The car was not considered to have been illegal when it raced however, so the Swedish Grand Prix win stood.


Seems like a ban to me, or as good as one.

It was only the designer (Gordon Murray) who said it was not dangerous, The other drivers (who were allegedly pelted by the rubbish) had different views. :wave:

#48 nordschleife

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:18



I wonder why the decision did not apply retroactively. I suppose the grounds for exclusion cited by the CSI must have been that a fan car's effect on other racers' safety had not been considered by them until after its first race. On the other hand if they concluded that the fan was a movable aerodynamic device wouldn't the car and its results have been illegal and subject to being disallowed retroactively? Unless it was just an easier compromise to agree that Gordon Murray put one by us this time so keep the results but we're wise to it now, it's illegal, don't argue and don't bring any variation of it around again.

Edited by nordschleife, 17 August 2009 - 03:19.


#49 stevewf1

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:30

According to Mike Lang's book Grand Prix! there were complaints about the BT46B "fan car", but nothing mentioned about it being "downright dangerous".

But of course that was a different era...


#50 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
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Posted 17 August 2009 - 03:30

I wonder why the decision did not apply retroactively. I suppose the grounds for exclusion cited by the CSI must have been that a fan car's effect on other racers' safety had not been considered by them until after its first race. On the other hand if they concluded that the fan was a movable aerodynamic device wouldn't the car and its results have been illegal and subject to being disallowed retroactively? Unless it was just an easier compromise to agree that Gordon Murray put one by us this time so keep the results but we're wise to it now, it's illegal, don't argue and don't bring any variation of it around again.


I think it was more a case of the perceived danger of debris, the extraordinary high lateral G forces placed on the driver and a good helping of sour grapes from the other competitors. :|

But, there again, I am not young enough to know everything and memory does play tricks at times. :blush:

Edited by ForeverF1, 17 August 2009 - 03:33.