Jump to content


Photo

Sideways!


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:10

Some of ya' young guns may have never seen a real race car sideways in real life and as I was cruising looking for Carlos's rally history I notice 2 photos of his F1 days and man he surely defines sideways in both of them...

Hope you enjoy the 2 sideways shots and ask for others to contribute open wheelers that are sideways please....

Scroll down to the black and whites of 1972 and especially 1973!

http://www.carlosghy...raphy_lole.html

Advertisement

#2 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:37

Posted Image

NICE! :D

Gilles4Ever will like this...;)

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 15 August 2009 - 09:40.


#3 flyboy

flyboy
  • Member

  • 381 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 15 August 2009 - 11:36

I'm operating from memory on this, but didn't he qualify on the pole for his first F-1 race?

#4 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,194 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 11:53

That just reminded me how much I miss ladies overalls being fashionable!

Being serious for a moment, there is no feeling in driving that comes close to being at full lock and full throttle!

#5 glorius&victorius

glorius&victorius
  • Member

  • 4,327 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:02

great pictures! i wonder if bigger rear tires enable the car to be more sideways...

#6 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,037 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:05

great pictures! i wonder if bigger rear tires enable the car to be more sideways...


lack of aero dependence enables them ... back then aero was 10% of the grip and mech was the rest, now if you lose the aero (and if you 're sideways you lose it because the wings have the wrong angle of attack realtive to the direction of travel and obviously airflow) you lose the car

#7 glorius&victorius

glorius&victorius
  • Member

  • 4,327 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:08

lack of aero dependence enables them ... back then aero was 10% of the grip and mech was the rest, now if you lose the aero (and if you 're sideways you lose it because the wings have the wrong angle of attack realtive to the direction of travel and obviously airflow) you lose the car


thanks for that!

so why this simple logic is not incorporated in modern day F1 cars is beyond comprehension.. (as we fans enjoy nothing more than seeing a car sideways and the driver catching it...)

#8 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:30

Wow what a bio in pictures! Seems like a great guy always with a smile on his face. Amazing cars, the romantic days of motorsport.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 15 August 2009 - 12:31.


#9 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,610 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:42

slip angles of the tyres are probably less too, areo stuff was cruder and probably more tolerant than modern stuff

some stuff still goes sideways :)

#10 slideways

slideways
  • Member

  • 3,194 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 12:45

You can set the cars up to go sideways in corners these days no problem but it will be stupidly slow. The only reason to put the car sideways is if you lack the grip already to take it normally and would otherwise have to brake.

#11 Kalmake

Kalmake
  • Member

  • 455 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 13:01

Ok it's wet, but...



#12 Panch

Panch
  • Member

  • 439 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 13:54



#13 OfficeLinebacker

OfficeLinebacker
  • Member

  • 14,019 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 14:34

Some of ya' young guns may have never seen a real race car sideways in real life and as I was cruising looking for Carlos's rally history I notice 2 photos of his F1 days and man he surely defines sideways in both of them...

Hope you enjoy the 2 sideways shots and ask for others to contribute open wheelers that are sideways please....

Scroll down to the black and whites of 1972 and especially 1973!

http://www.carlosghy...raphy_lole.html


Wow after seeing those pics, for some reason I feel an odd compulsion to visit Argentina and have some nice steaks.

(as we fans enjoy nothing more than seeing a car sideways and the driver catching it...)


Do you watch NASCAR?

#14 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,474 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:11

Reutemann! Always been one of my heroes,a man's man.

#15 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,832 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:25

Bias-ply tires help.

#16 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:49

Reutemann! Always been one of my heroes,a man's man.




Just a note, this wasn't a Carlos thread, I just luckily came across those pics and note I'm Aussie and a big Alan Jones fan so you know what that means!

Edited by cheapracer, 15 August 2009 - 15:49.


#17 DOF_power

DOF_power
  • Member

  • 1,538 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 15:54

What's the point of going slow ?!
Sideways went out of fun with the Group Bs.

#18 ForeverF1

ForeverF1
  • RC Forum Host

  • 6,412 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 17:39

Bias-ply tires help.


Indeed they do.
At the advent of radial ply tyres, there was a large and sustained TV coverage of the dangers of mixing radial and cross/bias tyres on normal road cars because of the added grip from radials that caused the cross ply tyres to loose adhesion and send cars into front/back end slides.

Great fun if you liked to 'hang the ass out' on corners. :lol:

#19 Kucki

Kucki
  • Member

  • 1,237 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 17:52



Advertisement

#20 Pato

Pato
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:19

If you want to see cars going sideways with HUGE angles, just go to a drift event. Most entertaining form of motorsport ever.

#21 thiscocks

thiscocks
  • Member

  • 903 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:46



#22 Kucki

Kucki
  • Member

  • 1,237 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 21:55



#23 Dispenser89

Dispenser89
  • Member

  • 3,460 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 15 August 2009 - 22:47



#24 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 3,474 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 15 August 2009 - 23:07

Just a note, this wasn't a Carlos thread, I just luckily came across those pics and note I'm Aussie and a big Alan Jones fan so you know what that means!


Indeed it wasn't,but hadn't known you were a Jones fan. :p






#25 OfficeLinebacker

OfficeLinebacker
  • Member

  • 14,019 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 00:04


That guy does not know how to drive in the rain. Quite entertaining, though.

#26 klyster

klyster
  • Member

  • 4,249 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 16 August 2009 - 00:07

Some cool links here, cheers :up:

#27 Levike

Levike
  • Member

  • 1,036 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 16 August 2009 - 09:54

Full Throttle :

http://www.youtube.c...8...PL&index=35

#28 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,832 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 16 August 2009 - 10:03

If you want to see cars going sideways with HUGE angles, just go to a drift event. Most entertaining form of motorsport ever.


Minus the motorsport.

#29 thiscocks

thiscocks
  • Member

  • 903 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 10:49

That guy does not know how to drive in the rain. Quite entertaining, though.


... :confused: He was a pretty handy wet weather driver, and I think there he was doing a bit of show boating for the camera

#30 Pato

Pato
  • Member

  • 179 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 16 August 2009 - 10:55

Minus the motorsport.


Lol I was so expecting a reply like that, How is drifting not a motorsport? It's a sport in which cars are used, just because it is a judged sport it doesn't make it not a motorsport. What about Motocross? That's judged too and nobody says thats not a motorsport. If you actually went to a drift event you would be change your mind, I know people with similar opinions to you and I took them along to an EDC event at Silverstone and they completely changed their minds, and they regularly attend drift events with me.

#31 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 56,832 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 16 August 2009 - 10:58

Real motocross involves a field racing to a checkered flag, not doing flips and being cool.

If people want to drift I have no problem with it, just don't call it motorsport. It's the difference between ice skating and speed skating.

#32 Ogami musashi

Ogami musashi
  • Member

  • 787 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 10:58

The tires had much more progressive slip angle vs grip curve and yes either the aero proportion was low (early 70's) or the aero were from ground effects.

Today the wings works only in a small yaw window, the tires have their peak lateral force with very small slip angle (around 3°) so it is almost a no go (it does happen at some corner's exits).

By the way when grip is there, it is far slower.


While i like sideways in the form of slighly sliding with the 4 wheels (which still happens but cornering speed is so high that this is barely noticeable) i'm not quite on the full opposite lock wagon.

That said, great photos.

#33 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 12:21

Lol I was so expecting a reply like that, How is drifting not a motorsport? It's a sport in which cars are used, just because it is a judged sport it doesn't make it not a motorsport. What about Motocross? That's judged too and nobody says thats not a motorsport.


Motorsport and MotoX are judged by one thing, who is first across the finish line.

It really is that simple, no ballet about it.

#34 OfficeLinebacker

OfficeLinebacker
  • Member

  • 14,019 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 15:40

... :confused: He was a pretty handy wet weather driver, and I think there he was doing a bit of show boating for the camera


You got me. After I posted that I realized it I was being way too general. We agree though--in that particular clip he's exhibiting a suboptimal driving technique in the wet.

#35 mikeC

mikeC
  • Member

  • 602 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 August 2009 - 20:22

When sideways was quicker :clap: :





Edited by mikeC, 16 August 2009 - 20:26.


#36 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,326 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 16 August 2009 - 20:57

That guy does not know how to drive in the rain. Quite entertaining, though.



Are you kidding? Look at the amount of water on track, you can see the mirror image of the surroundings about everywhere!

#37 Chezrome

Chezrome
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 17 August 2009 - 10:56

I'm operating from memory on this, but didn't he qualify on the pole for his first F-1 race?


Well, Lole did VERY well (don't know about pole though) in his first couple of Grand Prix's (what's the correct plural?). Rumour had it he had found a little black book Emmerson Fittipaldi had compiled for himself ... and then lost. In this black booklet were lines, breakingpoints, gearratio's etcetera.

In the times before telemetry a right little helper.



#38 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 17 August 2009 - 14:42

When sideways was quicker :clap: :


Sideways is still quicker, fastest ever F1 lap, JPM, sideways through Lesmo 1 AND Ascari chicane ;) Maybe only a split second but it can be done!



#39 glorius&victorius

glorius&victorius
  • Member

  • 4,327 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 17 August 2009 - 15:40

Sideways is still quicker, fastest ever F1 lap, JPM, sideways through Lesmo 1 AND Ascari chicane ;) Maybe only a split second but it can be done!



Montoya said once: loose is fast

Advertisement

#40 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,326 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 17 August 2009 - 16:24

Sideways is still quicker, fastest ever F1 lap, JPM, sideways through Lesmo 1 AND Ascari chicane ;) Maybe only a split second but it can be done!


In both cases he throws the car in aggressively and applies opposite lock at the moment he notices the back of the car is beginning to slide. I'm pretty sure it was just tad over the limit and not intended. Only example of intentional sliding in on a dry track I can think of was Schumacher drifting the car through corner2 in Austria, in 2002 and 2003.

#41 Villes Gilleneuve

Villes Gilleneuve
  • Member

  • 2,248 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 17 August 2009 - 18:15

no sideways thread is valid without Ronnie Petersen.

Posted Image
Posted Image

or Emmo...or both

Posted Image


#42 Chezrome

Chezrome
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 18 August 2009 - 09:01


My five cents:

Sideways is quicker when braking early (to apply throttle as early as possible) will lose more time than braking very, very late. That's why with a kart you have to take as much speed into the corner as possible (and perhaps slide through the corner) while with a powerfull roadcar the traction and grip and power is so good sliding is of no need. You brake early (lose some time there) but you will back all the time because you can get on the throttle early. Take a motorbike. The power of that is always enormous in relation to the weight.

Recently, on Top Gear, the Stig drove streetcars of today compared with race-cars of thirty and twenty years ago. You could see the difference nicely there. The older cars (except the Ford GT40) had to be slung around corners, the rear stepping out, because braking early enough to get the car in a straight line through the corner would be braking THAT early that straightline speed would be severely hindered.




#43 FlatOverCrest

FlatOverCrest
  • Member

  • 2,823 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 19 August 2009 - 19:05

Anyonefor some sideways!?

Holy crap these things are mad!

:lol:




#44 Scotracer

Scotracer
  • Member

  • 2,685 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 19 August 2009 - 20:23

My five cents:

Sideways is quicker when braking early (to apply throttle as early as possible) will lose more time than braking very, very late. That's why with a kart you have to take as much speed into the corner as possible (and perhaps slide through the corner) while with a powerfull roadcar the traction and grip and power is so good sliding is of no need. You brake early (lose some time there) but you will back all the time because you can get on the throttle early. Take a motorbike. The power of that is always enormous in relation to the weight.

Recently, on Top Gear, the Stig drove streetcars of today compared with race-cars of thirty and twenty years ago. You could see the difference nicely there. The older cars (except the Ford GT40) had to be slung around corners, the rear stepping out, because braking early enough to get the car in a straight line through the corner would be braking THAT early that straightline speed would be severely hindered.


Nowadays it's all about tyres. F1 tyres have a very narrow operating window therefore going ye ol' drifty style doesn't work.