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Mercedes W154 performance in 1951 Formula Libre


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#1 crooky369

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 16:31

After watching the "The world's greatest f1 cars" DVD I'm curious to find out if anyone knows any thing about the 1951 Formula Libre races in Argentina (Buenos Aires and Eva Duarte Perón??) they are of particular interest because three pre-war Mercedes W154 raced in each of these two races.

What I find puzzling is that in both races they were beaten by a supercharged 2 litre F2 Ferrari 166 FL driven by José Froilán González with around 300hp even though the Mercedes W154 had at least 425hp and were been driven by someone who had prior experience with the car Hermann Lang who won several races with the same car before the war, arguably the best f1 driver of all time Juan Manuel Fangio and Karl Kling.

Can anyone shed some light on why they got beaten?

Below is the only information I have found.

V Gran Premio del General Juan Perón y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires


18 February 1951 - Costanera Norte, Buenos Aires: 157.5 km (3.50 km x 45 laps)



1 Froilán González (RA) A.C.A. Ferrari 166 FL 011F (2.0 sc) 1h35m18.9, 100.34 kph
2 Hermann Lang (D) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 1h35m35.3
3 Juan Manuel Fangio (RA) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 1h36m10.4
4 Oscar Gálvez (RA) A.C.A. Ferrari 166 C 013F (2.0 sc) 44 laps
5 Alfredo Pian (RA) Maserati (1.5 sc) 44 laps
6 Karl Kling (D) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 44 laps

Fastest Lap: Juan Manuel Fangio, 2m02.4 (103.11 kph)


Did Not Finish
Clemar Bucci (RA) Alfa Romeo 12C-37 51204(4.6 sc)
Carlos Menditeguy (RA) O.Gálvez Alfa Romeo 308 50017 (3.8 sc)
Viannini (RA) Viannini Maserati 4CLT 1608 (1.5 sc)
Alfredo Pián (RA) Maserati 4CLT 1599 (1.5 sc)
Jorge Daponte (RA) Maserati 4CLT 1600 (1.5 sc)


Qualifying
1 Juan Manuel Fangio Mercedes-Benz W154/163 1m58.4
2 Karl Kling Mercedes-Benz W154/163 2m00.0
? Hermann Lang Mercedes-Benz W154/163 2m06

Giuseppe Farina was originally nominated to drive for Mercedes, but was replaced by Fangio
at the insistence of the race organizers. Farina lodged a formal complaint with the FIA against
the ACA.



V Gran Premio Extraordinario de Eva Duarte Perón


25 February 1951 - Costanera Norte, Buenos Aires: 157.5 km (3.50 km x 45 laps)



1 Froilán González (RA) A.C.A. Ferrari 166 FL 013F (2.0 sc) 1h35m40.6, 98.98 kph
2 Karl Kling (D) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 1h37m53.1
3 Hermann Lang (D) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 43 laps
4 Jorge Daponte (RA) Maserati (1.5 sc) 43 laps

Fastest Lap: Froilán González, 1m58.6 (106.2 kph)


Did Not Finish
Carlos Menditeguy (RA) O.Gálvez Alfa Romeo 308 50017 (3.8 sc) 36 laps/Fuel pipe
Juan Manuel Fangio (RA) Daimler-Benz Mercedes-Benz W154/163 (3.0 sc) 16 laps/Carburation
Oscar Gálvez (RA) A.C.A. Ferrari 166 C 011F (2.0 sc)
Alfredo Pian (RA) Maserati 4CLT (1.5 sc) 32 laps


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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 16:45

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1935822

:)

#3 crooky369

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 18:36


Thanks for the quick response so the smaller Ferrari was more suited to the slower/twisty circuit so why didn't mercedes use the 1.5 litre voiturette W165?

Edited by crooky369, 15 August 2009 - 18:37.


#4 RStock

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 18:52

You might learn more here...


http://www.jmfangio....p1951baires.htm

http://www.jmfangio....1951baires2.htm

Sorry , not available in English . Babbelfish might produce a somewhat coherant translation .

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 18:53

OTTOMH I think the W165s were still in Switzerland at that point, enmeshed in a legal dispute over their ownership.

Also bear in mind that they were really only hand-built prototypes for a projected 1941-43 GP car, the first one designed and built in less than six months and the second actually completed on the boat to Tripoli (there are notable detail differences). They proved very good at Tripoli and would no doubt have performed well at Monza too, had they had the chance: but neither of those was a street course either.

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 22:18

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=1935822

:)

There was also the intention of taking the W154 to Indianapolis after Argentina.

During 1951 Daimler-Benz contemplated a return to Grand Prix racing with the W165 but called it of when they say the speed of the unsupercharged Ferrari in the German Grand Prix

Another possible reason for the failure in Argentina was that a lot of the pre-war team, including Uhlenhaut were not involved. Cars as complex as these need a large team of engineers if they are to function properly.


#7 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 07:17

Bit off , sorry. Does any of you know if Mercedes had any fuel contracts pre and after war , and with whom ?