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Jaguar 1955 Dundrod


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#1 Flaminiasupersport

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 11:42

I'm planning to modify a 1/12 scale model of a D-type into the one that was driven by Mike Hawthorn during the 1955 Dundrod race. Can someone tell me what the license number was on this particular Jaguar "Longnose" D-type?

Thanks! :wave:

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#2 Mal9444

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Posted 18 August 2009 - 13:16

I'm planning to modify a 1/12 scale model of a D-type into the one that was driven by Mike Hawthorn during the 1955 Dundrod race. Can someone tell me what the license number was on this particular Jaguar "Longnose" D-type?

Thanks! :wave:


It did not have a licence plate. Jaguar had planned to run XKD505, the Le Mans winner, with an experimental De Dion axle but this (or more correctly and according to Andrew Whyte, font of all knowledge on this subject, the Metalastik drive coupling thereto) proved unreliable in practice and they hurriedly shifted to the spare car, XKD506, painting on the competition number (1) in Harry Ferguson's garage during official scrutineering. Pictures of the car racing (and the MFQ footage of the race) show the car running with no licence plate (notwithstanding that it drove up and down to the circuit each day on open public roads).

If you are modifying an existing model (which one, btw?) don't forget to change the steering wheel from three-spoke to four-spoke, and for complete authenticity, you need to break the wrap-around windshield off above the driver's door. Hawthorn broke that jumping into the car at the le mans-style start. For even more complete authenticity, don't forget to break the crankshaft: Hawthorn broke that too... if only Lofty had left it all to Desmond Titterington.

My own modified 1/43rd scale of XKD506:

Posted Image (sorry for the fuzz!) and anopther shot of that model with the eventual winner:

Posted Image

This rear-view shot
Posted Image

Confirms no rear licence plate. (This image is widely available on the web. I do not know who owns the copyright but will take it down if anyone objects.)

The two images here:
http://www.motorspor...uk/gallery8.htm

which are from Martyn Wainwright’s wonderful book 1950s Motor Sport in Colour show that there was no licence plate at the front of the car either.

Edited by Mal9444, 18 August 2009 - 13:37.


#3 Flaminiasupersport

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:46

Well there goes my hope to modify my Autoart 1/12 Jaguar... the so-called Rheims winner! It's a beautiful model of a longnose Jaguar but it wears the number 3 and reg number OKV2 (which, as everybody knows is a shortnose...)

Maybe you could help me out with these questions I have...

1. Was there a Longnose Jaguar driven by Hawthorn with a 3 spoked steering wheel?
2. Had the 2 other Jaguars (Le Mans 1955) 3 spoked steering wheels?
3. Was there ever a race where a longnose D-type wore the nr 3 and if so, what was the license plate?

I was very happy to read your comments about Hawthorn! Must have been a wonderful time for those who were there. If only I had a Zlink MK II to go back in time, boy what a great time I'd have!

I know Hawthorn had his D-type's windscreen lowered at Le Mans and that Norman Dewis wasn't pleased with it as it affected the aerodynamics of the car in a negative way. I'll check that broken off window out on period movies, I have never noticed before that the window was broken. Must have been quite noisy and windy down the Mulsanne straight!

See pics of my model here... http://www.modelauto...hp?f=65&t=16262 i want to modify it into a correct model, if possible "Hawthorn related" but any one will do! I just can't stand this historically incorrect model! And I can't change the steering wheel to turn it into the Dundrod model... Any suggestions?

Thanks for sharing your racing memories with me. I feel very priviliged!

#4 Flaminiasupersport

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:53

I just looked at the Jaguar - Dundrod pics and I noticed that the air intake suround isn't white as during the Le Mans race? Was this white paint easily removable, did they overspray it or what? And why was the window not repaired? How many time passed between Le Mans and Dundrod? I'll look after a good book about the D-types... I want to know every single detail of their original story!

#5 D-Type

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:56

The broken off windscreen was at Dundrod. I think the photos on Motorsport54 will show it

You might be able to lift the OKV 2 decals with 'Microsolve' but if it's been lacquered you may need to use gentle abrasion (cotton buds, orange sticks etc) or a strongerssolvent. Not something I've ever managed successfully

Hawthorn used a 4-spoke steering wheel wherever he could. So this would apply to any works Jaguar except if he took over someone else's car.

Try writing to Autoart - they just might have a 4-spoke wheel and a conscience. Or if they gave you a second 3-spoke one you might be able to make one up if your modelling skills are up to it. You could be sneaky: if anyone else has modelled a car with a 4-spoke wheel (eg incorrect Moss 300SLR) in the right scale, write to them and say you bought one on E-bay and it was missing the steering wheel and can they help you out.

Edited by D-Type, 19 August 2009 - 13:01.


#6 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 13:27

The latest AutoArt 1/12 scale Le Mans (not Reims) winning D type now has the correct trade plate number and 4 spoke s/wheel, I saw one at the Goodwood Festival of Speed on one of the stalls.

One thing I thought was not satisfactory was the very thin s/wheel rim, these items always seem to be a problem as I've noticed on the 1/18 scale CMC models where they are usually too thick and too small a diameter.

#7 Flaminiasupersport

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 07:56

The latest AutoArt 1/12 scale Le Mans (not Reims) winning D type now has the correct trade plate number and 4 spoke s/wheel, I saw one at the Goodwood Festival of Speed on one of the stalls.

One thing I thought was not satisfactory was the very thin s/wheel rim, these items always seem to be a problem as I've noticed on the 1/18 scale CMC models where they are usually too thick and too small a diameter.



You're absolutely right about the steering wheels on model cars. I've never seen one that is absolutely perfect. My CMC Bugatti comes close (I removed that silly cord) and the rim is fine. What bothers me most ith the AA Jaguar D-Type steering wheel is that not only the rim looks too flimsy, but also the steel spokes are too thin. PE (Photo Etch) is Ok, but it's always too thin and square... With a steering wheel like that you'd loose all your fingers before the first corner! These are merely remarks as the overall impression of the AA D-type is wonderful to me.

#8 tonyb

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 07:56

I just looked at the Jaguar - Dundrod pics and I noticed that the air intake surround isn't white as during the Le Mans race? Was this white paint easily removable, did they overspray it or what? And why was the window not repaired? How many time passed between Le Mans and Dundrod? I'll look after a good book about the D-types... I want to know every single detail of their original story!

The white air intake surround was very specific to Le Mans and for XKD 505 only. As it was the team's lead car, Lofty England wanted to be 100% absolutely sure with no doubt whatsoever (i.e. certain) that he could identify that car from any other D-type when it was in sight - hence for the race he ordered the surround painted on the nose and also a white vertical stripe on the rear fin on the offside of the car so it was visible from the pits. The other team cars carried nothing similar. This was normal paint and was simply oversprayed afterwards when no longer required.

As already mentioned, 505 was due to race at Dundrod but was hurriedly replaced by 506 and it ended up with no plate numbers.

If you are coming to the Revival, you can talk to Norman about the lowered windshield if you want - he'll be around the whole weekend and specifically at the TT Garage set at times. And if you (or anyone else) do get the chance to talk to him, please do so, you won't regret it!

Or, you can watch dear old Norman talk about it - when I made the Sideways in a D-type! DVD many years back to help Win Percy, we interviewed Norman for it and the clip where he tells the story is on YouTube for all to enjoy.

There's also a very good recent 2009 seven minute interview with Norman on YouTube with Ken Gross talking to Norman, made at the Saratoga museum.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Norman Dewis at XK 60th 2008
Images Copyright Tony Bailey 2008

Edited by tonyb, 22 August 2009 - 15:12.


#9 Mal9444

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 10:23

I am suffering more than a little déjà vu about this thread.

I assume this is the model we are discussing:

Posted Image

And that we discussed here:

http://forums.autosp...w...2773&st=640 (post 668 et seq)

and even here:

http://forums.autosp...hl=autoart okv3 ?

If so, it would not be difficult to remove or simply paint out the white nose and re-number it as XKD506 in Dundrod guise. IIRC from seeing the contemproary BP black-and-white movie of the race the race numbers were added so hurriedly that there was no Jaguar badge beneath the number, as there is on the model. The licence plates can also be taken off as described above (I used that method reconfiguring a Maisto 300slr as Moss’s car for the same race).

Posted Image

I was fortunate in that I needed to reduce rather than increase the number of spokes in the steering wheel, and so have a 1:18 Moss 300slr with an accurate (more or less) steering wheel that did not cost me £315, which is what I believe the CMC model costs.

Posted Image

I am at a loss to offer advice on this car's steering wheel other than that which has gone before.

Hawthorn broke the Jaguar’s windscreen as he leapt in at the very start of the race, so there is no real need to modify this model unless you want to.

It would need a D-type expert more knowledgable than I to say whether the very detailed curved dash on the Autoart model is correct for XKD506 or not. I do not know which dash came first, curved or flat.

Are you there, Duncan? Duncan…?








#10 tonyb

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 12:21

The works cars had the flat panel but the production ones were different, rounded I think but I won't swear to that without looking it up which I cannot do at the moment.

#11 Mal9444

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 13:40

The works cars had the flat panel but the production ones were different, rounded I think but I won't swear to that without looking it up which I cannot do at the moment.


And presumably when they switched cars it would have been the work of a moment also to change steering wheels, to suit Mike's preference?


#12 D-Type

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Posted 22 August 2009 - 21:17

~
It would need a D-type expert more knowledgable than I to say whether the very detailed curved dash on the Autoart model is correct for XKD506 or not. I do not know which dash came first, curved or flat.

Are you there, Duncan? Duncan…?

Not me mate. Despite my user name, I'm no expert. I chose it because at the time I joined the forum everybody seemed to use pseudonyms and this was a sort of "D for Duncan"

#13 tonyb

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:21

And presumably when they switched cars it would have been the work of a moment also to change steering wheels, to suit Mike's preference?

About 5 mins or so given the tools.

#14 Paul Parker

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 15:30

Speaking strictly from memory the curved dashboard was a feature of the original 'works' D types in 1954 and the later 'short nose' production cars had a conventional flat dash.

Although I cannot be absolutely sure about XKD506, XKD505 had a 'flat' dashboard at Le Mans. I know because I used a pic of the cockpit in Jaguar at Le Mans (P58) to illustrate the CAV fuel filter that was mounted to the left of the transmission tunnel. I had forgotten about this image as it also shows the interior rear view mirror that was the subject of much conjecture in an earlier thread.



#15 tonyb

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 15:05

Hawthorn broke the Jaguar’s windscreen as he leapt in at the very start of the race, so there is no real need to modify this model unless you want to.

These two stills from a JDHT colour film of the Dundrod race just as it starts show the chap at left down on his knees picking up
the broken parts(s) that Mike has knocked off - much clearer when you watch the video itself. Wonder if he kept the bit(s)?

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by tonyb, 24 August 2009 - 17:41.


#16 Graham Gauld

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 17:20



This might give a little more detail of the front three quarters of the Hawthorn car at Dundrod.

Posted Image

#17 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 19:57

Super pic Graham, is that one of yours and what a lovely, curvey thing the 'long nose' D type was with the driver only screen.

#18 Mal9444

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 20:45

These two stills from a JDHT colour film of the Dundrod race just as it starts show the chap at left down on his knees picking up
the broken parts(s) that Mike has knocked off - much clearer when you watch the video itself. Wonder if he kept the bit(s)?


At last! Proof positive that my theory was correct. I have just spent ages hunting for the thread and the post in which I asked, back in about 2005 when I first made the acquaintance of this wonderful collection of people, 'can anyone tell me how Hawthorn's windscreen became broken... etc'. Assiduous detective work with video footage and photos led me to deduce that it must have been as he jumped in at the start (whole screen before the start, broken screen by Leathemstown Bridge first time around was a bit of a clue) but no one could provide the definitive answer. And you, Tony, had it all the time!

Who or what, please, is JDHT, was the colour film from which you have the stills ever released, where might one find it and do you have any more such pictures you can share (or that I can acquire, at modest cost, for my own little collection of Dundrod snaps and memorabilia, such as that lovely shot above by Graham, a print of which along with various others from the same source adorn my office wall)?

#19 Mal9444

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 20:52

Dumb bloke - dumb question: Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust. Presumably I can ask them about the video - unless tonyb can short the circut for me. (Now you see the point of my signature quote.)

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#20 tonyb

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 22:50

Dumb bloke - dumb question: Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust. Presumably I can ask them about the video - unless tonyb can short the circut for me. (Now you see the point of my signature quote.)

I've had a look at the original file and on reflection, it's not in the format the JDHT use. I can't for the life of me remember where I d/l it from though (in May 2007) and there is no copyright info on it or titling.

When I was writing Golden Boy, I collected over 30 videos related to Mike and that's one of them. The JDHT kindly also supplied me with a DVD that they had produced privately that contains loads of their history as racing videos (including the only colour sequence, abt 5 secs, of VDU 881 racing at Silverstone I'm aware of), a lot of which few people had ever seen before - although someone well known on this forum did quite a lot of the DVD commentary! Unfortunately, I have no permission to show any of it publicly though. Just had a quick look and that doesn't contain any Dundrod footage at all.

Posted Image

The JDHT have very recently changed their name to just 'Jaguar Heritage' BTW.

PM me your postal address and I'll put a copy of the Dundrod one on a CD.... It's only a 320px wide version, the two stills were blown up for posting - no commentary just a rendition of the Ride of the Valkyries! Looking at the copyright notice, it's possible you could have a copy of the Jaguar DVD as well but I'd need to check. It has the 1956 Le Mans video where Mike does a trip round commentating - at full original resolution taken directly from the film.

Posted Image


Edited by tonyb, 25 August 2009 - 07:08.


#21 Graham Gauld

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:10

Super pic Graham, is that one of yours and what a lovely, curvey thing the 'long nose' D type was with the driver only screen.



Yes,Paul, the good old Leica with 135 Elmar lens.

#22 Mal9444

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 16:48

I've had a look at the original file and on reflection, it's not in the format the JDHT use. I can't for the life of me remember where I d/l it from though (in May 2007) and there is no copyright info on it or titling.

Posted Image



Having now seen the cd - for which many thanks - I am fairly sure it is from the same source that was used for the Motor Films Quarterly Dundrod footage that appeared in volume 12. IIRC this was from a Rootes Group camera crew (or one commissioned by Rootes) sent to Dundrod to chart the progress of the works TR2 team. They got these wonderful colour pictures (so far as I am aware the only colour footage of that race) but if I remember the story aright they missed some crucial parts of the race (such as Moss being flagged across the finish line to win!) and so the movie was never made - or perhaps it was not made because of the calamatous accidents. I say this because although the stills that you have posted here are not in the MFQ version, and nor is some of the other footage, much appears to me to be exactly the same: the pictures of the fleet passing the pits, the lingering shots of OKV2 in the ditch with Bob Berry looking on, the shots on the outside of the bend at Tournagrough etc. This is not, however and I emphasise here, a rip-off from the MFQ production because the editing is very different. It is clearly a rough-edit put together by (presumably) someone else.

How very intriguing: I had thought that Doug's and the MFQ story and footage were an exclusive. Someone else must have a copy of at least some of the rushes also, somewhere.

Can DCN throw any light?