46 replies to this topic

[Paul Rochdale]

When Peter Williams crashed his Norton as the result of the tank/seat unit coming loose, what were the actual circumstances. Who was held responsible for this oversight?

[Russell Burrows]

When Peter Williams crashed his Norton as the result of the tank/seat unit coming loose, what were the actual circumstances. Who was held responsible for this oversight?

My recollection is that Peter sued Norton Villiers, perhaps via an individual spannerman. I've no idea of the outcome and there dosen't appear to be very much info out there.

About twenty years ago when living in Northampton, I noticed Peter standing ahead of me in a queue in the pubic library. I have to admit that I was attempting to look at the books he was taking out, when he clocked me and gave me something of an quizical look. Lest he thought I was starring at him because of his obvious phyiscal injuries, I hesitated to say anything to him...then the moment was gone.

[Ray Oldam]

Russell,

Think it was at Snetterton wasn't it? I remember seeing a photo in MCN at the time, showing him trying to hang on to the bike as the seat fell off. I know it was a contentious accident, but not sure about the circumstances behind it. He had a shop in Southampton for a few years (Hein Gericke now). He was recently involved with the Evo Design TTXGP bike, and I remember a photo on the TTXGP web site a few months back. I saw him race in the Island a few times when I used to live there - fine rider.

Best wishes.

Ray

[Steve O'Brien]

My recollection is that Peter sued Norton Villiers, perhaps via an individual spannerman. I've no idea of the outcome and there dosen't appear to be very much info out there.

About twenty years ago when living in Northampton, I noticed Peter standing ahead of me in a queue in the pubic library. I have to admit that I was attempting to look at the books he was taking out, when he clocked me and gave me something of an quizical look. Lest he thought I was starring at him because of his obvious phyiscal injuries, I hesitated to say anything to him...then the moment was gone.

Im pretty sure it happened at Oulton Pk

[Russell Burrows]

Im pretty sure it happened at Oulton Pk

Yeah, Oulton Park where the seat Tank arrangement came adrift after it wasn't secured properly

[fil2.8]

Yeah, Oulton Park where the seat Tank arrangement came adrift after it wasn't secured properly

Yes crew , 35 years ago this weekend , August Bank Holiday 1974 , and it was at Oulton as has been stated

[Steve Bateman]

Yes crew , 35 years ago this weekend , August Bank Holiday 1974 , and it was at Oulton as has been stated

He used to have a workshop in Salisbury trying to develop a small capacity multi cylinder engine, must have been 30 years ago when i last went in there !

[Steve O'Brien]

Yeah, Oulton Park where the seat Tank arrangement came adrift after it wasn't secured properly

Was it not at Old Hall were it happened

[picblanc]

Was it not at Old Hall were it happened

Yes, there is a famous B/W photo of him on the bike with the seat/tank unit be-coming detached.

[exclubracer]

Yes, there is a famous B/W photo of him on the bike with the seat/tank unit be-coming detached.

Hi Graham, I think that was the pic in 'the comic' at the time, I believe his legs were very badly broken as he got tangled up with the bike. I think it was at Old Hall corner also

[Mark_C]

I've just registered on the forum and this is my first post. Reading this thread about the genius Peter Williams reminded me of an encounter at Donnington a few years ago. It was the Donnington 25th anniversary classic bike festival. I was thrilled to be able to chat to Peter whilst we were both admiring the Team Obsolete MV triple that was on display. He mentioned that it had always been a dream of his to ride a factory MV and what with him being a bit of a legend and the owner being in hearing range, the bike was duly fired up for Sir Peter to have a play. I think the expression on his face says it all really - he couldn't stop grinning. Made me think really because you could argue that, compared to what he achieved with the Norton, the MV was a very conventional machine.

[Classicpics]

I've just registered on the forum and this is my first post. Reading this thread about the genius Peter Williams reminded me of an encounter at Donnington a few years ago. It was the Donnington 25th anniversary classic bike festival. I was thrilled to be able to chat to Peter whilst we were both admiring the Team Obsolete MV triple that was on display. He mentioned that it had always been a dream of his to ride a factory MV and what with him being a bit of a legend and the owner being in hearing range, the bike was duly fired up for Sir Peter to have a play. I think the expression on his face says it all really - he couldn't stop grinning. Made me think really because you could argue that, compared to what he achieved with the Norton, the MV was a very conventional machine.

Great pictures. He was well ahead of his time.

A complete rider, another "if only". It would have been good to see him on the MV, no doubt he would have been a world champion on it.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Welcome to the forum Mark , great photos! I'm the one who gets them all wrong which is fun as it still stirs lots of memories


David

[GD66]

A complete rider, another "if only". It would have been good to see him on the MV, no doubt he would have been a world champion on it.
[/quote]

I remember hoping things would open up for him after that win in the 350 Ulster Grand Prix on the MZ. He was unlucky in that he was just bursting into peak form as the factories withdrew their support. But the lad could ride....

[Classicpics]

A complete rider, another "if only". It would have been good to see him on the MV, no doubt he would have been a world champion on it.


I remember hoping things would open up for him after that win in the 350 Ulster Grand Prix on the MZ. He was unlucky in that he was just bursting into peak form as the factories withdrew their support. But the lad could ride....

[Russell Burrows]

Yeah, can't help thinking he would have given Ago more than some hurry up. Just had a look on the database and was reminded that even though he was invariably on outclassed singles he has no less than seven runner up positions. I think I'm right also in claiming that he didnt start racing until '64 aged about 24, cos his Dad, Jack, was dead set against it? Brilliant engineer to boot. Perhaps only one Brit quicker than him around the late sixties?

[Russell Burrows]

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Hi Russ. Brilliant pic. Is that Dan Shorey on the 17?

[Russell Burrows]

Yes Rhodie, with Cooper and Croxford, Brands '67.

[pushstart]

Very good to see some recent pics of Pete Williams. He hardly appears to have aged! Definately one of my favourite riders, I remember watching him win at Brands on the Arter Matchless when Ago fell off trying to keep up! Brilliant!! Such a shame the Oulton crash finished his career.

[Classicpics]

Found a couple of pics of Peter








MCN please note: copywrite John S Nowell

[picblanc]

Found a couple of pics of Peter








MCN please note: copywrite John S Nowell

They nicking your pics!!?

[Classicpics]

They nicking your pics!!?

Only the Rayborn one, emailed both editor and the guy who wrote the article, no reply...

[rotrax]

They nicking your pics!!?

Only the Rayborn one, emailed both editor and the guy who wrote the article, no reply...

Hi,Peter Williams was a Kawasaki dealer.I had frequent contact with him when I worked in the Kawasaki technical dept.in the late seventies.Through this I helped get the "Wheelbarrow" Matchless out on track with Steve Linsdell aboard.Peter and steve both have exeptional mechanical and engineering skills and were on the same wavelengh.Steve had a few good rides on it but other stuff came up and he started going good at the T.T.I last saw Peter at the Beezumph rally at Cadwell a few years ago-you are right-he is a bit of a Peter Pan! Yours in sport.

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

I believe Peter currently works for Lotus Cars in Norfolk.....

[stokeith]

Regarding the crash at Old Hall it was a classic case of a good idea that unfortunately didn't have a fail-safe mode. The seat and tank were one unit and it hinged to allow good access to the top of the engine and all the other components in that vicinity. So far so good. I believe the problem was that it hinged at the rear of the bike and without a secure fixing for whatever reason the unit lifted up at the front whilst Peter negotiated the rise at that part of the circuit with terrible consequences.
I loved watching Peter in the Island especially on the Arter-Mathless, a true expert.

[Herr Wankel]

Regarding the crash at Old Hall it was a classic case of a good idea that unfortunately didn't have a fail-safe mode. The seat and tank were one unit and it hinged to allow good access to the top of the engine and all the other components in that vicinity. So far so good. I believe the problem was that it hinged at the rear of the bike and without a secure fixing for whatever reason the unit lifted up at the front whilst Peter negotiated the rise at that part of the circuit with terrible consequences.
I loved watching Peter in the Island especially on the Arter-Mathless, a true expert.

Was there ever a better combination of rider/engineer (can of worms now opened!)
HW

[Rennmax]

Was there ever a better combination of rider/engineer (can of worms now opened!)
HW

Not directly comparable, but Helmut Fath is worth a mentioning in this context

Edit: Not intending to make any PR, but Peter's biography 'Designed to race' is soon to be published

Edited by Rennmax, 02 September 2010 - 19:17.

[Herr Wankel]

Not directly comparable, but Helmut Fath is worth a mentioning in this context

Edit: Not intending to make any PR, but Peter's biography 'Designed to race' is soon to be published

As I was asking the question,Helmuts name came to mind.
HW

[philippe7]

Was there ever a better combination of rider/engineer (can of worms now opened!)
HW

Well, Jarno Saarinen was a certified engineer, with a real diploma from the Turku Insitute of Technology, unlike many self-acclaimed "engineers" - however, I see where you're coming from, if Jarno was certainly a fine tuner of his bikes, he wasn't instrumental in their design and in creative research in the same way as Peter Williams or Helmut Fath ( or Eric Offenstadt , to name another one .... )

Edited by philippe7, 03 September 2010 - 00:22.

[joepotts7]

Well, Jarno Saarinen was a certified engineer, with a real diploma from the Turku Insitute of Technology, unlike many self-acclaimed "engineers" - however, I see where you're coming from, if Jarno was certainly a fine tuner of his bikes, he wasn't instrumental in their design and in creative research in the same way as Peter Williams or Helmut Fath ( or Eric Offenstadt , to name another one .... )

I agree on Saarinen. Evene when riding works Yams he insisted on building his own cranks. An amazing talent. I would also include Bob McIntyre. A great development rider who also built his own bikes. He had the most amazing 'feel' for how to set a bike up, and was often to be found helping out others in the paddock who were having trouble with their machines.

I am never hugely impressed with Peter Williams. He seems to sing his own praises just a little to easily. Anyway, it is bad of me to be negative...

Ben

[Rennmax]

Well, Jarno Saarinen was a certified engineer, with a real diploma from the Turku Insitute of Technology, unlike many self-acclaimed "engineers" - however, I see where you're coming from, if Jarno was certainly a fine tuner of his bikes, he wasn't instrumental in their design and in creative research in the same way as Peter Williams or Helmut Fath ( or Eric Offenstadt , to name another one .... )

On second thought, Helmut Fath was more a unbelievable gifted precision mechanic than a 'engineer',due to the lack of formal education or studies in this field. But he compensated that (and more than that !) by his dedication and his natuaral talent.The brain behind the URS was Dr. Ing Peter Kuhn, a professor for mechanical engineering from the Heidelberg university. Don't know if he got some academic assistance for his ARO, which was a lot more than a König copy btw...

Edited by Rennmax, 03 September 2010 - 11:25.

[timhanna]

At the risk of banging on what about Kim Newcombe? Kim designed, built, developed, raced and maintained his own 500cc GP bike. He achieved second place in the world championship, beating Ago fair and square in the process. Can those claims be made for or by anybody else?
Of course like Fath he was also just a mechanic.
I do agree that the Aro was a lot more than a König copy.

On second thought, Helmut Fath was more a unbelievable gifted precision mechanic than a 'engineer',due to the lack of formal education or studies in this field. But he compensated that (and more than that !) by his dedication and his natuaral talent.The brain behind the URS was Dr. Ing Peter Kuhn, a professor for mechanical engineering from the Heidelberg university. Don't know if he got some academic assistance for his ARO, which was a lot more than a König copy btw...

[Herr Wankel]

At the risk of banging on what about Kim Newcombe? Kim designed, built, developed, raced and maintained his own 500cc GP bike. He achieved second place in the world championship, beating Ago fair and square in the process. Can those claims be made for or by anybody else?
Of course like Fath he was also just a mechanic.
I do agree that the Aro was a lot more than a König copy.

Good call Tim.
HW

[philippe7]

Of course like Fath he was also just a mechanic.

Strange that you mention this Tim..... Kim Newcombe is precisely another widely described as an "engineer" ( at least that was the case in the french press...) and I really thought he had some formal higher education. Considering the book you're writing about him ( how is that coming along by the way ? ) I of course take your word for it that it wasn't so .

[Russell Burrows]

Good call Tim.
HW

M’mm, wasn’t the Konig a rocketship, faster than anything then around?

I think a decade of brilliant performances on bikes largely of his own design, puts Peter in a different category. And on the design front, he’s still at it. http://www.inter-bik...-williams-.html

Ben, the blowing his own trumpet stuff is surely more about publisher’s hype. Having said that, presumably SMBH is being quoted accurately.
http://www.peterwill...g.com/book.html

Edited by Russell Burrows, 04 September 2010 - 09:06.

[Rennmax]

At the risk of banging on what about Kim Newcombe? Kim designed, built, developed, raced and maintained his own 500cc GP bike. He achieved second place in the world championship, beating Ago fair and square in the process. Can those claims be made for or by anybody else?

Wonder where Kim Newcombe beat Ago 'fair and square' on the track ? I suppose you refer to the '73 season, where Ago crashed at Le Castellet, dropped out at Salzburgring, Hockenheim and Assen with mechanical failure and didn't take part in Opatija, which meant that he had scored zero points when half the season was over, but whenever he dropped out or when he finished, he was ahead of Kim. This takes nothing away from Kim's performance or his achievements as 'engineer', 'mechanic' or whatever he was in adopting a boat engine and building a competitive bike around it though

[timhanna]

You are right. I meant to write that Kim beat Ago and his MV fair and square on the track in the 73 championship. At the end of the day Kim and his Konig had amassed more points than Ago even if Read and his MV won it.
This was as much about Kim's ability to build a bike that could compete and finish reliably as it was about his ability as a rider - hence the comment in a stream about rider- engineers. And again I ask if any other person of that description ever achieved something of that magnitude.

Wonder where Kim Newcombe beat Ago 'fair and square' on the track ? I suppose you refer to the '73 season, where Ago crashed at Le Castellet, dropped out at Salzburgring, Hockenheim and Assen with mechanical failure and didn't take part in Opatija, which meant that he had scored zero points when half the season was over, but whenever he dropped out or when he finished, he was ahead of Kim. This takes nothing away from Kim's performance or his achievements as 'engineer', 'mechanic' or whatever he was in adopting a boat engine and building a competitive bike around it though

[twotempi]

All the examples mentioned are very special in their own way.

In the smaller capacity classes there are also a number of individuals who achieved great results as constructor / riders.

Jos Sturgers ( please correct spelling of name ) with his Bridgestone 175 based contender in the 125cc class for instance , and I am sure that other examples exist in the 125's and other classes such as 50cc's etc

Who was the most sucessful as these people who achieved results from their talents is really a bit irrevelant - they have used their natural abilities of design, building, and riding in their particular classes in a way that us mere mortals can only wonder at. And be very envious of !!!

And we are the richer for it.

[Russell Burrows]

You are right. I meant to write that Kim beat Ago and his MV fair and square on the track in the 73 championship. At the end of the day Kim and his Konig had amassed more points than Ago even if Read and his MV won it.
This was as much about Kim's ability to build a bike that could compete and finish reliably as it was about his ability as a rider - hence the comment in a stream about rider- engineers. And again I ask if any other person of that description ever achieved something of that magnitude.

Yes and more still. As previously posted, Helmut Fath, who unlike Newcombe, built his bike, including the fantastic engine, from scratch and won his world title.

[Rennmax]

Yes and more still. As previously posted, Helmut Fath, whon unlike Newcombe, built his bike, including the fantastic engine, from scratch and won his world title.

Hi Russ, let me play the 'advocatus diaboli'.... Helmut won against the BMWs, which were basically constructions of the fifties and then nearly 15 years old. In the solo championship, the URS had no chance to beat the MV, being a lot more bulky ..... so salute to both Helmut and Kim !!

Edit: and Peter !

Edited by Rennmax, 08 September 2010 - 13:05.

[Russell Burrows]

Hi Russ, let me play the 'advocatus diaboli'.... Helmut won against the BMWs, which were basically constructions of the fifties and then nearly 15 years old. In the solo championship, the URS had no chance to beat the MV, being a lot more bulky ..... so salute to both Helmut and Kim !!

Edit: and Peter !

Hi Renn, just as the bulk of the opposition for Newcombe consisted of TZ 350 Yams ? As you say he didn't manage to beat the MV's in any race; in his one GP victory, he made it across the line ahead of Steve Ellis' TZ ! (no offence towards Steve intended)

[Rennmax]

Hi Renn, just as the bulk of the opposition for Newcombe consisted of TZ 350 Yams ? As you say he didn't manage to beat the MV's in any race; in his one GP victory, he made it across the line ahead of Steve Ellis' TZ ! (no offence towards Steve intended)

But Kim had a lot more to do than to hop on a well prepared works bike or fetch a production racer out of the crate
Russ... bearing in mind that this is Peter Williams' thread, is his biography already available ?

Edited by Rennmax, 08 September 2010 - 16:49.

[Russell Burrows]

But Kim had a lot more to do than to hop on a well prepared works bike or fetch a production racer out of the crate
?

That's true but once hopped on he could outsquirt them along the straight bits..... He was doubtless bloody good and it's a great shame he didn't go on to show us more.

The site says the book's available now Renn.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 08 September 2010 - 17:08.

[littlemono82]

Hallo,

Just received my copy of the Peter Williams book.
If the text is as good as the pictures and the layout, it will be a very good read.
Haven't read it of corse, but do like the technical drawings of some of the bikes.
Oh and amazone is a cheap place to buy a copy.

Groet Remco

[GD66]

The boy's been doodling again....
http://www.motorspor...nning-replicas/

Well-made little promo vid, and a bloody good idea, if overdue...

[Classicpics]

The boy's been doodling again....
http://www.motorspor...nning-replicas/

Well-made little promo vid, and a bloody good idea, if overdue...

Wooweee

Good luck to them, if only I had some spare cash, if only I had some cash!

What a beauty.