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McLaren winning anthem - NZ or GB?


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#1 doohanOK

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 01:33

When a McLaren car wins a Grand Prix, why do we hear the British National Anthem, "God Save The Queen", instead of New Zealand's "God Defend New Zealand"?

(Just a side note, according to wikipedia.org, NZ's anthem can also be God Save The Queen).

Anyway, does anyone know the answer?

regards,
doohanOK.

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#2 uechtel

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 06:31

The team runs under British license.

#3 goffer

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 06:33

When a McLaren car wins a Grand Prix, why do we hear the British National Anthem, "God Save The Queen", instead of New Zealand's "God Defend New Zealand"?

(Just a side note, according to wikipedia.org, NZ's anthem can also be God Save The Queen).

Anyway, does anyone know the answer?

regards,
doohanOK.


As NZ'er I'm guessing it's as simple as the fact that when Ron Dennis and Project 4 took over McLaren in 1980 (IIRC) the connection to the NZ origins went. The 1979 & 1980 seasons (early ground effects days) were a bit of a disaster for McLaren (the 28, 29 & 30 (slightly less so) were dogs) and at Marlboro behest Dennis was brought in to correct their poor run of form. IIRC incumbent team management at that time included several kiwi's - Phil Kerr & Alister Caldwell come to mind, though Americans Teddy Mayer & Tyler Alexander were also prominent, and they carried on in various roles through a bit of a transition phase. Although I'm sure many talented kiwi's have worked for McLaren since, it has effectively been a 'British' team since the 1981 season. From 1981 McLaren model numbers had the prefix MP4 (McLaren Project4).

However I have always felt that the kiwi heritage is well respected - ie; the name never changed, they have on occasions used a derivative of 'gulf' orange on test mules / pre-sponsorship unveilings ......




#4 bschenker

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 06:47

I think it's only a license question.

Like the driver needs the driver license, the team need the competitor license.

Same as today RedBull the workshop is in Britain, but the competitor license is from Austria.
.


#5 2F-001

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:05

But the team was established, and has always been based, in the UK; was anything other than the British national anthem ever played in their honour prior to the merger with Project 4?

Edited by 2F-001, 28 August 2009 - 07:06.


#6 Rob29

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:14

But the team was established, and has always been based, in the UK; was anything other than the British national anthem ever played in their honour prior to the merger with Project 4?

I think youre right-does anyone remember when an anthem for the team was first played? Must check the movie 'Grand Prix' to see if Japanese anthem was ever played for the fictional 'yamura' team-actually McLaren. :wave:

#7 lustigson

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:23

Same as today RedBull the workshop is in Britain, but the competitor license is from Austria.

A fact that the Chinese GP organisers missed when S. Vettel won Red bull Racing's first Grand Prix, earlier this year.;)

#8 Tony Matthews

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:43

The vast majority of true race enthusiasts know of the New Zealand connection, but think of the team as being British. One of the best things about the sport is the intermingling of Nationalities, more so now than in the past, I would guess, when teams like Williams seemed to be 100% beef.

I was somewhat surprised to see that Peter Winsor refers to Cosworth as a US company now, as it has been bought by an American. Probably correct, but it will always be British in my mind.

#9 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:51

Trick question, what anthem did they play when Jack Brabham won his GPs? (and Alan Jones as well)

#10 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:04

Trick question, what anthem did they play when Jack Brabham won his GPs? (and Alan Jones as well)

Probably "God Save the Queen" as you still had Dominion status then (pre-1986 IIRC)!

#11 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:10

But the team was established, and has always been based, in the UK; was anything other than the British national anthem ever played in their honour prior to the merger with Project 4?

Yes it's always been British, even though it was founded and staffed by expatriate New Zealanders, etc.
I remember attending a talk by Bruce M on the Can-Am races and their cars designed for it. I think I remember him referring to the team as British in that context (as in something like "the Americans coudn't understand what the British were up to" when describing the self-pumping fuel tank system of the CanAm McLaren).

#12 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:21

This one brings to mind the 'real' as opposed to ' political' nationality of teams which have been rather diverse for many years.

McLaren have always built cars in Britain, never in NZ. But with most of the original key staff being Kiwis I guess one could say the original 'team' was from New Zealand but the 'company' has always been British?

All American Racers (Eagle) - again much the same for the F1 cars , designed, built, run out of Britain. I'll risk some " incoming " here by saying this has there ever been team name that was quite such a misnomer? "All American..." meaning what, in this context, exactly?

Penske would be much the same , particularly when they ran in F1. Did the US national Anthem play in Austria in 76?

Minardi was always Italian. But when Paul Stoddard bought it perhaps it could have been called Australian ?

Jordan - as Irish as ... as .. as... Silvertsone ?

Force India .... ditto

BMW.... aren't they still (for the moment) built and run out of Sauber's Swiss base?

Go way back and you find Bugatti was originally a German car making company, until the treaty of Versailles shifted the border after WW1, then it became French, but the Bugatti family were Italians... so is Bugatti Italian, French or German?

Is the nationality of the team that of it's location? Or is it that of it's owners ?

I guess it's really whatever suits the situation best at the time.

What price a 'Monaco' , 'Camen Islands' or 'Jersey' national anthem at some point if registering in a tax haven suddenly provides a financial bonus?












#13 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:48

What price a 'Monaco' , 'Cayman Islands' or 'Jersey' national anthem at some point if registering in a tax haven suddenly provides a financial bonus?


They should have played the Swiss national anthem when one of Mr Chapman's Loti won, as that was where much of the cash ended up.


#14 # 0

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 11:53

All American Racers (Eagle) - again much the same for the F1 cars , designed, built, run out of Britain. I'll risk some " incoming " here by saying this has there ever been team name that was quite such a misnomer? "All American..." meaning what, in this context, exactly?

Wasn't the F1 team named Anglo-Amercan Racing because of that?

#15 Rob

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:11

What would they have played if British American Racing had won a race? Some sort of Star Spangled Banner-God Save the Queen remix?

#16 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:12

Wasn't the F1 team named Anglo-Amercan Racing because of that?


The F1 team was only ever Anglo-American Racers, All-American Racers was what they called themselves both before and after the F1 period when racing in the USA.


#17 D-Type

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:15

My twopennyworth:

Bruce McLaren was a New Zealander and when he won they should have played the NZ anthem (when did it change from "God save the Queen"?)
The McLaren Team was always British-based although initially staffed largely with Kiwis so whenever a McLaren car won they should play "God save the Queen"
Jack Brabham, Alan Jones and Mark Webber are Australians and when they won they should have played "Advance Australia fair" or "God save the Queen" depending on when it was
The Brabham Team was always British-based, whether owned by SirJack, Ron T, Bernie or anybody else, so again it's "God save the Queen" for the car

I suppose for any team it depends what the registration document with the FIA says

AAR was either "Anglo-American" or "All-American" depending on the context. e.g. definitely "All American" when dealing with Goodyear regarding sponsorship and "Anglo-American"when dealing with the local council in Rye. I believe that the UK-based operation was registered in UK as "Anglo-American" but I don't know for certain.

But my favourite apocryphal story is that when Pedro Rodriguez won the South African GP they didn't have a copy of the Mexican anthem so they played "South of the Border (down Mexico way)" instead

#18 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:33

...and "Anglo-American"when dealing with the local council in Rye.


Ashford surely, it's Harry Weslake who was in Rye.

#19 Duc-Man

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:47

What about Alan Jones winning the austrian GP in a Shadow in '77?
Shadow was an american team also based in England...

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#20 retriever

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 13:38

Being sentimental, it is a pity that Mclaren do not still carry the Kiwi logo that adorned cars such as the M7A and Canam cars when Bruce McLaren was alive - I know the practice carried on after his death but I suppose now even such a small area on a current vehicle would sell for money in the six to seven figure region. Or am I wrong and that somewhere hidden on the current cars the little creature still resides safe and well.

#21 Michael Oliver

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 13:40

The F1 team was only ever Anglo-American Racers, All-American Racers was what they called themselves both before and after the F1 period when racing in the USA.

Looking back to a contemporary programme for the 1967 Race of Champions, the team is entered under the name "Anglo American Racers" without the hyphen...

I would be interested if anyone can offer any evidence that there was a hyphen as I am currently pondering this conundrum while working through the proofs of my book of mechanic's anecdotes, Tales from the Toolbox, where I mention the UK arm of AAR in several places.

Michael

#22 RA Historian

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:41

However I have always felt that the kiwi heritage is well respected - ie; the name never changed, they have on occasions used a derivative of 'gulf' orange on test mules / pre-sponsorship unveilings ......

It wasn't gulf orange. See separate thread 'Early McLaren Liveries'.

On that thread, in response to a question as to where the orange originated, Kayemod replies:

No, Bruce saw some new Lola T70 bodywork one day at SM, Hugh Dibley's I think, and decided that would be the colour for all his cars in future, it was that simple. It's a stock pigment called Traffic Yellow, still available today, though many restored cars in the Woking collection are not the correct shade at all. SearchBB will find a lot more info on this. It was never called 'Papaya' at the time, I think some journalist might have used the term, and sadly, it seems to have stuck. It wasn't called Gulf Orange at the time either, that was just a lucky coincidence for one of their main sponsors, the cars were orange before Gulf came along.
--------------------

Rob.


Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 28 August 2009 - 14:42.


#23 RA Historian

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:46

All American Racers (Eagle) - again much the same for the F1 cars , designed, built, run out of Britain. I'll risk some " incoming " here by saying this has there ever been team name that was quite such a misnomer? "All American..." meaning what, in this context, exactly?

I am confused, Simon. In his book on Dan Gurney and the Eagle cars, John Zimmermann says that the cars were designed and built in California. Len Terry supposedly physically moved to California to do the job. The cars were supposedly built in the AAR shop in Costa Mesa, Calif., then sent to the UK base where the engines, gearboxes, etc., were installed and the cars finished. What is the straight scoop?

Tom

#24 La Sarthe

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:17

Didn't Eddie Irvine get the Irish national anthem when he won his four GPs, despite being very much British, because he was racing under an Irish licence at the time?

This year the Rad Bull team have had the Austrian national anthem for their wins, in deference to their owner and because, presumably, they race under an Austrian licence. They are of course based at the very Austrian Milton Keynes.

Peter

#25 ensign14

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:27

Probably "God Save the Queen" as you still had Dominion status then (pre-1986 IIRC)!

"When The Flag Drops" by Jack Brabham, page 139:

"Although Mike had been the first Briton to win the Championship, I had clinched the double and become the first British driver in a British car to do so!"

#26 D-Type

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:37

Ashford surely, it's Harry Weslake who was in Rye.

Fair comment, I was posting from memory. I thought that as Weslake designed the engines they also manufactured them in Rye.

#27 D-Type

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:41

I am confused, Simon. In his book on Dan Gurney and the Eagle cars, John Zimmermann says that the cars were designed and built in California. Len Terry supposedly physically moved to California to do the job. The cars were supposedly built in the AAR shop in Costa Mesa, Calif., then sent to the UK base where the engines, gearboxes, etc., were installed and the cars finished. What is the straight scoop?

Tom

Was that all the Eagles or just the Indycar ones? Only supposition. I would expect that as a minimum, any in-season development work of the F1 cars would have been done in Ashford/Rye.


#28 RA Historian

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:49

Was that all the Eagles or just the Indycar ones? Only supposition. I would expect that as a minimum, any in-season development work of the F1 cars would have been done in Ashford/Rye.

All Eagles of all types were built in California, with the only question being about the F-1 cars which I raised above. Once the cars got to the UK, I would suspect that they stayed there. No reason to fly back to the States for any repairs or maintenance.
Tom

#29 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:55

Fair comment, I was posting from memory. I thought that as Weslake designed the engines they also manufactured them in Rye.


That can be a fatal mistake, but it's what I do myself most of the time. On whether it's Anglo-American Racers or All-American Racers, with or without the hyphen, again I was posting from memory myself, but I've just checked with History of the Grand Prix Car and Doug Nye agrees with me, so if I'm wrong, at least I'm in good company. On Michael Oliver's point, I imagine that the operation was really always All-American Racers, but I understood that they called it Anglo-American as far as the UK subsidiary was concerned, so that was the name over the Ashford factory door.


#30 RS2000

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:23

Didn't Eddie Irvine get the Irish national anthem when he won his four GPs, despite being very much British, because he was racing under an Irish licence at the time?

He had an Irish Republic licence, as it was his main residence, although he's not British, being from the Northern Ireland bit of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The FIA then made an exemption regarding the flag etc. after his family was threatened. It doen't help that the FIA and the MSA seem to use "GB" where "UK" would be correct.

Edited by RS2000, 28 August 2009 - 16:25.


#31 Tim Murray

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:30

... although he's not British, being from the Northern Ireland bit of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I used to have a Guernsey passport, in which I was described as a British citizen, even though Guernsey has never been part of the UK.

#32 Nick Wa

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 17:50

As has already been stated God Save the Queen is still a joint New Zealand national anthem (from 21-11-77) and was only replaced by Advance Australia Fair on 19-4-84 as Australia's national anthem.
So as far as drivers are concerned Mark Webber was the first to stand for Advance Australia Fair.

#33 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 18:03

...although he's not British, being from the Northern Ireland bit of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


You'll have to try to explain that again, if he's from the Northern Ireland part of the UK, then surely he's 100% British, and as Tim points out, it will say so on his passport. A separate issue, but citizens of the Republic of Ireland, Eire according to their postage stamps, live on the British Isles, because whether they like it or not, that's an unarguable geographic entity, and nothing to do with any political situation.

#34 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 18:30

Being sentimental, it is a pity that Mclaren do not still carry the Kiwi logo that adorned cars such as the M7A and Canam cars when Bruce McLaren was alive - I know the practice carried on after his death but I suppose now even such a small area on a current vehicle would sell for money in the six to seven figure region. Or am I wrong and that somewhere hidden on the current cars the little creature still resides safe and well.


If you look at McLaren's current "swoosh" icon it appears to be a stylised kiwi.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 August 2009 - 18:32.


#35 hay!

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:00

If you look at McLaren's current "swoosh" icon it appears to be a stylised kiwi.


I do so hope that's true. :cool:

#36 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:19

I do so hope that's true. :cool:


Go to the McLaren Racing web site (mclaren.co.uk) and look at the red icon that appears in your address bar. It looks like a smoothed out version of the old "speedy kiwi"

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 August 2009 - 19:21.


#37 h4887

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:31

Stylised into extinction, I'd say...

#38 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:35

Stylised into extinction, I'd say...


As has much of what we call F1 these days...


#39 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:38

As has much of what we call F1 these days...



I see your points, of course, but I understand it is intended to resemble a kiwi (and I can see it as such). You have to view it in comparison to the Speedy Kiwi logo used from 1971 onwards rather than the conventional kiwi silhouette used prior to that point.

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#40 kayemod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:45

I see your points, of course, but I understand it is intended to resemble a kiwi (and I can see it as such). You have to view it in comparison to the Speedy Kiwi logo used from 1971 onwards rather than the conventional kiwi silhouette used prior to that point.


On that kiwi, I regard Ron Dennis as one of the underappreciated men of F1, in his own way, I think he's contributed as much over the years as Bernie Ecclestone. I know he'll never forget how it all came about for him, and as far as honouring Bruce goes, I know we can rely on him to do the decent thing. 'Ere, I seem to have come over all emotional...


#41 ensign14

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:47

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#42 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 19:58

IIRC incumbent team management at that time included several kiwi's - Phil Kerr & Alister Caldwell come to mind,


Purely for historical reference sake, Alastair was actually born in Yorkshire and emigrated to NZ when he was six. His website (alastaircaldwell.com) recounts this story and many others. He considers himself a New Zealander, though he also has a UK passport in addition to his NZ one.

Other kiwis at McLaren in the sixties and seventies included Phil Sharp, Leo Wybrott, Ray Grant, Kerry Adams, Howden Ganley and many more. It would seem that it was the gelling of this mix of national talents (Brits, Kiwis and Americans) which made them so successful at that time.

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 28 August 2009 - 20:04.


#43 hay!

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 23:07

Go to the McLaren Racing web site (mclaren.co.uk) and look at the red icon that appears in your address bar. It looks like a smoothed out version of the old "speedy kiwi"


Posted Image


I go to bed a happy man :clap:

#44 GD66

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 06:30

What about Alan Jones winning the austrian GP in a Shadow in '77?
Shadow was an american team also based in England...


I saw an Alan Jones interview some years ago where he indicated his win was such a surprise to all concerned that the organisers had no copy of an anthem for the ceremony, and in the end a drunk played "Happy Birthday" on a trumpet. :lol:


#45 2F-001

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:29

The playing of a National Anthem for a driver is a relatively (in TNF terms, that is) recent addition, isn't it? Surely it used to be just in honour of the team or entrant's nation.



#46 Michael Oliver

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 10:43

That can be a fatal mistake, but it's what I do myself most of the time. On whether it's Anglo-American Racers or All-American Racers, with or without the hyphen, again I was posting from memory myself, but I've just checked with History of the Grand Prix Car and Doug Nye agrees with me, so if I'm wrong, at least I'm in good company. On Michael Oliver's point, I imagine that the operation was really always All-American Racers, but I understood that they called it Anglo-American as far as the UK subsidiary was concerned, so that was the name over the Ashford factory door.


Well, as I said in my earlier post, the contemporary programme at the time has no hyphen in 'Anglo American' and an email I have from Dan's office also reads 'All American Racers' without a hyphen...

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:18

Well, as I said in my earlier post, the contemporary programme at the time has no hyphen in 'Anglo American' and an email I have from Dan's office also reads 'All American Racers' without a hyphen...


But Mike - they were colonials. It's well known they can't spell and never grasped Her Majesty's hyphenation rules.
DCN


#48 kayemod

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:27

But Mike - they were colonials. It's well known they can't spell and never grasped Her Majesty's hyphenation rules.
DCN


At least nobody has referred to the outfit as All-American Racer's. I wonder if Eats Shoots & Leaves is available outside the UK?