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Championships won NOT in the "best car"?


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#1 Jimisgod

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:51

People complain about drivers only winning the title in the best car and treat it like a bad thing (Damon in 96, JV in 97...) however, who has actually won the title without the best car? Remember that the quality of cars tends to chane over the season (just look at this year or 1979 for a good example) so how do we define the "best car" anyway? Prost in 1986 comes to mind as one of the clearer examples of winning in a lesser car than the Williams.

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#2 bigginge

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:53

People complain about drivers only winning the title in the best car and treat it like a bad thing (Damon in 96, JV in 97...) however, who has actually won the title without the best car? Remember that the quality of cars tends to chane over the season (just look at this year or 1979 for a good example) so how do we define the "best car" anyway? Prost in 1986 comes to mind as one of the clearer examples of winning in a lesser car than the Williams.


I would start by looking for someone who won the WDC when the WCC was won by a different team.

#3 TinyJim

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:57

I would start by looking for someone who won the WDC when the WCC was won by a different team.


I would say NOT best TWO cars!

Last year it arguably the Ferrari was overall the quicker of the two championship contender cars but generally it was very close.

#4 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:58

Would the 1999 or 2000 season have any arguments?


Edited by George Costanza, 28 August 2009 - 14:59.


#5 wasssup bra

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 14:59

LEWIS HAMILTON :clap:

#6 bigginge

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:00

Would the 1999 or 2000 season have any arguments?


You'll always find an argument on here! Of course 1999 was when MS broke his leg..... :lol:

#7 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:01

True.

I do not think in 2000 that Ferrari had the best car, though.

Edited by George Costanza, 28 August 2009 - 15:02.


#8 bigginge

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:03

Also, by best does that mean fastest? There's a history of fast but unreliable cars which didn't win championships (I'm looking at you Adrian Newey!).

#9 Paolo

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:05

Rosberg, Williams, 1982.

Sheckter, Ferrari, 1979.

Brabham, Brabham, 1967.




#10 Alexis*27

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:08

Plus years where there wasn't any single 'best' car. Raikonnen and Hamilton in my opinion.

#11 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:09

1981 Nelson Piquet (Williams team rivalry)
1982 Keke Rosberg (Renault's appalling reliability and Ferrari Tragedy hit)
1986 Alain Prost (Williams team rivalry
1992 Ayrton Senna (Willimas unreliability early in the season)
1995 Michael Schumacher (Williams was the better car)

1999 and 2000 are debatable

2005 perhaps as well ???


henri

#12 ceebdub

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:11

And how many races did Keke win in '82 ? Go look that one up.

#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:12

The problem with these discussions is people think 'best car' means you are a second a lap quicker than everyone else, when it could easily be .013 seconds a lap. So I would say the Williams and Benettons in 1995 were very similar, so there wasn't really a best car. There isn't a 'best' car this year either when you take the season into account as a whole.



#14 MLC

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:14

And how many races did Keke win in '82 ? Go look that one up.


Only 1 less than the guy who won the most. :)

#15 MLC

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:21

Alain Prost in '86 is one the clearest examples.

#16 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:22

1981 Nelson Piquet (Williams team rivalry)
1982 Keke Rosberg (Renault's appalling reliability and Ferrari Tragedy hit)
1986 Alain Prost (Williams team rivalry
1992 Ayrton Senna (Willimas unreliability early in the season)
1995 Michael Schumacher (Williams was the better car)

1999 and 2000 are debatable

2005 perhaps as well ???


henri


Senna was in 1991.
2000 was McLaren. 1999 was Ferrari. Yes, not the 'best', but faster than the other by a slim margin.

Edited by George Costanza, 28 August 2009 - 15:25.


#17 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:30

LEWIS

Kov had 3 podiums all year

#18 werks prototype

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:32

Hamilton arguably nutured the last two great Ferrari's. 08 title definitely.

#19 Johnrambo

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:33

Räikkönen in 2007. The McLaren was super reliable and super fast.

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#20 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:34

2007 and 2008 were simliar to 1999 and 2000 in the car respects. Just like 2006 between Alonso and Schumacher.
.

#21 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:35

Räikkönen in 2007. The McLaren was super reliable and super fast.


wasnt as super fast in all the high aero efficiency tracks - Spa, Silverstone, Turkey, Barcelona, Malaysia, Brazil, Nurburgring.....

#22 ryan86

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:36

LEWIS

Kov had 3 podiums all year


Is that because because Lewis was dragging the McLaren to places it didn't deserve to be or indicative of Heikki's attraction to niggles that compromised his race?

#23 RodrigoL

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:37

wasnt as super fast in all the high aero efficiency tracks - Spa, Silverstone, Turkey, Barcelona, Malaysia, Brazil, Nurburgring.....


But it was super fast on those tracks in 2008. Does that mean Lewis had a better car that year?  ;)

#24 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:37

Is that because because Lewis was dragging the McLaren to places it didn't deserve to be or indicative of Heikki's attraction to niggles that compromised his race?



The latter.

#25 Orin

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:40

Jackie Stewart won the 1973 title in what was widely considered the second best car.

EDIT: gratuitous onboard clippage

Edited by Orin, 28 August 2009 - 15:45.


#26 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:40

But it was super fast on those tracks in 2008. Does that mean Lewis had a better car that year? ;)


comparatively, MP4-23 and F2008 were closer than MP4-22 and F2007

#27 engel

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:41

comparatively, MP4-23 and F2008 were closer than MP4-22 and F2007

presumably you 've driven all 4 cars?

#28 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:42

Jackie Stewart won the 1973 title in what was widely considered the second best car.



A good example, sir.

#29 Hole

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:42

2007 and 2008 were simliar to 1999 and 2000 in the car respects. Just like 2006 between Alonso and Schumacher.
.

I'm partially agreed with the exception of 2008. Lewis' McLaren and Massa's Ferrari were equal IMO. One of them was better in certain races than the other and vice versa.

Edited by AdamKOR, 28 August 2009 - 15:43.


#30 RodrigoL

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:44

comparatively, MP4-23 and F2008 were closer than MP4-22 and F2007


Perhaps, but I'd argue that McLaren had the better car in both instances....purely because of their reliability record. Kimi and Massa lost around 15-20 points per season just because of mechanical DNFs. :down:

#31 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:48

Schumacher 95/94/00

Alonso 05/06

Hamilton 08


#32 sreevishnu

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:49

Schumacher 95/94/00

Alonso 05/06

Hamilton 08

got to disagree with Schumy 95, Alonso 05/06 and Lewis 08

#33 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:52

got to disagree with Schumy 95, Alonso 05/06 and Lewis 08


An analysis of those years clearly shows they were not the best cars. In 95 for example a rookie coulthard was better than schumacher in qualifying. Just think about that before you suggest the williams was anything but the best.

#34 Clatter

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:53

I would start by looking for someone who won the WDC when the WCC was won by a different team.


That means nothing as the WCC takes both drivers. If we take Ferrari as a current example, KR could be winning races while LB sits at the back of the grid.

#35 engel

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:53

An analysis of those years clearly shows they were not the best cars. In 95 for example a rookie coulthard was better than schumacher in qualifying. Just think about that before you suggest the williams was anything but the best.


qualifying != race ... back then cars used different setups for each, some were good in quali trim others were good in race trim

#36 George Costanza

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:56

An analysis of those years clearly shows they were not the best cars. In 95 for example a rookie coulthard was better than schumacher in qualifying. Just think about that before you suggest the williams was anything but the best.



This is true. 1995 Williams had the best car on one basis (Qualifying) Benetton had it for race trim.

#37 Birelman

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 15:56

Well, first you have to ask, what the best car really is..

Is it the car that goes the fastest?
the one with the best reliability?
the one with better luck?

There's probably a million combinations, but it's definately not as easy as just saying, "well, look at his teammate's result, he was clearly in a crap car" or, "look there was his teammate wiinning too, he was in the best car by far" those are stupid arguments.

To me, the best car is the car that will give you more oportunities to score more points, more often. It might not be the quickest at one point, but it gets the job done.

Once you figure that one out, then you can answer the OP's question IMHO

#38 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:00

qualifying != race ... back then cars used different setups for each, some were good in quali trim others were good in race trim

Its highly unlikely that a superb Newey chassis with the same engine and tyres that was superior in qualifying, would lose that speed advantage in the race. If you look back at that season the williams drivers generally had the speed advantage over schumacher on race day but they just couldnt race. Hill was all over schumacher at monza, silverstone, nurburg ect.

#39 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:02

This is true. 1995 Williams had the best car on one basis (Qualifying) Benetton had it for race trim.

Whats that based on? Just because schumacher won more races than coulthard and hill??? Johney herbert was almost lapped every race by the williams drivers. When did coulthard and hill ever lap any team mate in their careers?

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#40 ryan86

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:05

An analysis of those years clearly shows they were not the best cars. In 95 for example a rookie coulthard was better than schumacher in qualifying. Just think about that before you suggest the williams was anything but the best.


Which car, from the list you posted, was the best car in 2006? The Ferrari was the fastest for the last part of the season, but the Renault was clearly more sorted at the beginning of the season.

#41 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:10

Which car, from the list you posted, was the best car in 2006? The Ferrari was the fastest for the last part of the season, but the Renault was clearly more sorted at the beginning of the season.


When you say the last part, you mean the last 10 races I hope. And dont forget Ferrari locked out the front row in the first race of the season. Not bad from a less sorted car dont you think?

I think on balance in the first 9 races, Renault had a slight edge, but in the second half ferrari were dominant, which is why I claim Ferrari was the best car of 2006.

#42 Scotracer

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:34

From my own memory:

Shumacher 2000
Alonso 2005
Raikkonen 2007 (I think the Mclaren was faster but the two eejits behind the wheel were incompetent)

#43 Norm

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:58

Also, by best does that mean fastest? There's a history of fast but unreliable cars which didn't win championships (I'm looking at you Adrian Newey!).



lol, I see Newey is taking a lot of heat on this forum of late. I guess fans of F1 have short memories. Is 6 out of 10 WCC for Newey while at Williams not enough? Is designing a title winning car for Mika in 98 and 99, only in his second year at Mclaren not enough.

I'll step out on a ledge here with my next comment.

If you are a fan of F1 and do not regard Newey as one of the best if not the best designer in F1 then you are fool. There is only one other designer in the history of F1 that has secured more Championship than Newey. :stoned:

#44 Coral

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 16:58

Prost 1986
Senna 1991
Schumacher 1994 & 1995
Raikkonen 2007
Hamilton 2008

Edited by Coral, 28 August 2009 - 16:59.


#45 bigginge

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 17:00

lol, I see Newey is taking a lot of heat on this forum of late. I guess fans of F1 have short memories. Is 6 out of 10 WCC for Newey while at Williams not enough? Is designing a title winning car for Mika in 98 and 99, only in his second year at Mclaren not enough.

I'll step out on a ledge here with my next comment.

If you are a fan of F1 and do not regard Newey as one of the best if not the best designer in F1 then you are fool. There is only one other designer in the history of F1 that has secured more Championship than Newey. :stoned:


Actually Newey is the person in F1 that I have the most respect for. I'm reluctant to say he's my hero :love: !

However, Newey cars are known for pushing the limits - which has resulted (on occasion) in going over the limits of the materials and components used to make it, and consequently reliability issues. If I gave the impression that I had anything other than the utmost admiration for the guy, then I apologise!

Edited by bigginge, 28 August 2009 - 17:04.


#46 fanboy

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 17:02

Newey is by far the best designer in history. Not only did he acheive his staggering results without the most dominant driver in history but he did it racing against him. Just imagine his results without having to race against Schumacher, then imagine them, racing with Schumacher. :drunk:

#47 ZZMS

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 17:10

94/95/00/03/08

#48 Atreiu

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 18:08

This is like the mother of all bombs of a can of worms...


#49 Mackey

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 18:10

Lots of people saying 08 and i think that McLaren was the best car alongside the Ferrari.

#50 Tantor

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 18:19

Schumacher 95/94/00

Alonso 05/06

Hamilton 08


I agree, and this year will be the next one with Button/Vessel/Webber winning instead of those McLarens and Ferraris.