Jump to content


Photo

Lancia did it...


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:02

...and Mercedes-Benz did too. But if we consider the World Championship races since 1950, how many other cars have taken a pole position BEFORE they scored any points?

I know it must have happened in the very first race too, but that one doesn't count.

In case it has escaped anyone's notice Giancarlo Fisichella has achieved that with a Force India car this afternoon at Spa.

Advertisement

#2 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,092 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:08

Not quite sure I agree with your premise.

If I bought the BMW team in the off season with my spare change, renamed it Force Denmark and I had Quick Nick plant his car on pole in the first race next year, it would be comparable. But both you and I know that it really isn't so.

Jordan---> Midland ---> Spyker ---> Force India (sorry if I forgot an incarnations along the way)

#3 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:11

Are we saying that the Force India IS a Jordan?

Surely the car is new, this year, built by the Force India work force. How much of a Jordan/Spyker etc would that be, then?

Vijay Mallya bought the franchise. Not the same as buying a car and running it, IMHO.

Edited by Barry Boor, 29 August 2009 - 17:12.


#4 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,886 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:12

...and Mercedes-Benz did too. But if we consider the World Championship races since 1950, how many other cars have taken a pole position BEFORE they scored any points?

I know it must have happened in the very first race too, but that one doesn't count.

In case it has escaped anyone's notice Giancarlo Fisichella has achieved that with a Force India car this afternoon at Spa.


BrawnGP?

#5 Giraffe

Giraffe
  • Member

  • 7,005 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:15

Eddie was taking some of the reflected glory today...... :smoking:

#6 scheivlak

scheivlak
  • Member

  • 11,390 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:17

BrawnGP?

And March of course.

#7 jcbc3

jcbc3
  • Member

  • 5,092 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:19

Are we saying that the Force India IS a Jordan?

Surely the car is new, this year, built by the Force India work force. How much of a Jordan/Spyker etc would that be, then?

Vijay Mallya bought the franchise. Not the same as buying a car and running it, IMHO.


Except the rear end is bought whole sale from McLaren.  ;)

#8 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,324 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:21

Lola

Edited by Tim Murray, 29 August 2009 - 17:32.


#9 Phil Rainford

Phil Rainford
  • Member

  • 5,289 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:28

Tyrell as a constructer ( Canada 1970 ).......


PAR

#10 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 689 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:35

And March of course.

Veto
Team March scored theire first points at Jarama 1970 (Andretti 3rd) and JYS put its March on pole and that's a team Tyrell Car. Team Tyrell had scored already a 3 in South Africa in 1970.
JYS set fastest time with his Team Tyrell at the US GP in the same year, first point scoring with Team Tyrell was in 1971.

Edited by Hugo Boecker, 29 August 2009 - 17:35.


#11 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:38

Can I just add, I wasn't trying to say that the three examples I mentioned were the only ones.

I just couldn't be bothered to look it all up.

I knew you fine fellows would oblige with other instances.

#12 Giraffe

Giraffe
  • Member

  • 7,005 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:52

Can I just add, I wasn't trying to say that the three examples I mentioned were the only ones.

I just couldn't be bothered to look it all up.

I knew you fine fellows would oblige with other instances.


We knew that all along Barry....  ;) See you tomorrow?

#13 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,324 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 August 2009 - 17:57

Veto
Team March scored theire first points at Jarama 1970 (Andretti 3rd) and JYS put its March on pole and that's a team Tyrell Car. Team Tyrell had scored already a 3 in South Africa in 1970.
JYS set fastest time with his Team Tyrell at the US GP in the same year, first point scoring with Team Tyrell was in 1971.

Sorry Hugo, but I don't agree. Barry's original question referred to car, not team, so as I see it, it's irrelevant that the March car which took pole in South Africa was run by the Tyrrell team.

And, as Phil said, the first pole for a Tyrrell car was Canada 1970, not US. :)

#14 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 29 August 2009 - 23:33

At Indianapolis what counts as a make?

Based on the chassis maker we have:
1956 Watson (Pat Flaherty) which won the race
1959 Lesovsky (Johnny Thomson) which finished 3rd
1960 Ewing (Eddie Sachs) and not in the points

Based on car name, we have:
1952 Cummins Diesel Special (Fred Agabashian) which never scored a point
1957 Sumar Special (Pat O'Connor) which never scored a point
1959 Racing Associates Special (Johnny Thomson) which finished 3rd

I think that's correct - but I may have missed an earlier points score at some stage as I'm working from books (Lang and Higham)

#15 Ivan

Ivan
  • Member

  • 6,646 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 30 August 2009 - 05:08

Jordan---> Midland ---> Spyker ---> Force India

I thought about that when he got pole... :rotfl:

#16 just me again

just me again
  • Member

  • 1,127 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 30 August 2009 - 07:38

FI is currently last in the constructor championship with no points, and still they got the pole, that has not happened often, maybe not at all if you only count races past ½season (so you only get the genualy slow constructors and not the ones who just were unlucky in the first few races). and only constructors who have entered all the races.

Bjørn

#17 just me again

just me again
  • Member

  • 1,127 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:30

I have just surfed the Forix site, and just found two pole positions wich maybe can compare with Fisichellas

It's Teo Fabi in Toleman in 1985 at the Germany Grand Prix
http://forix.autospo...?l=0&r=1985&c=3

and maybe Bruno Giacomelli in Alfa Romeo in 1980 at the USA Grand Prix.
http://forix.autospo...?l=0&r=1980&c=3

It is rare that a car/team is coming from behind to score a pole. Let's hope the best for Fisichella today.

Bjørn

#18 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:03

Didn't Minardi once fluke a pole? Or am I thinking of Toleman?

#19 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Member

  • 14,324 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:17

IIRC the best Minardi ever did was second on the grid - Pierluigi Martini at Phoenix 1990.

Advertisement

#20 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 30 August 2009 - 14:58

I think Wolf took a pole before they won a race

#21 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,047 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 30 August 2009 - 15:29

I think Wolf took a pole before they won a race

Not as Wolf. They won on their debut in Argentina 1977 but Hunt (McLaren) was on pole. And as Wolf-Williams they were nowhere near the front.

#22 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 30 August 2009 - 20:11

Well, we now know Fisi's pace yesterday was genuine. Beaten today, simply by KERS!

#23 962C

962C
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 30 August 2009 - 21:42

I was going to suggest Renault in South Africa 79, but it appears Jabouille has scored 3 points in Watkins Glen the year before. Pretty close still...

#24 Rainer Nyberg

Rainer Nyberg
  • Member

  • 1,756 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:27

It's Teo Fabi in Toleman in 1985 at the Germany Grand Prix
http://forix.autospo...?l=0&r=1985&c=3


Toleman scored points before Germany '85, but Teo really did fly on that occasion!
I was there to witness it. He really made great use of the Pirelli qualifyers, no doubt helped by the boost knob! IRRC he did very few laps but, boy where they impressive.


#25 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 31 August 2009 - 13:03

Are we saying that the Force India IS a Jordan?


In fact the VJM02 is in reality the EJ18 with some updates from Valencia :-)


#26 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 31 August 2009 - 13:05

In case it has escaped anyone's notice Giancarlo Fisichella has achieved that with a Force India car this afternoon at Spa.


I guess the fact that Fizzi remained within two seconds with Kimi the whole race also is a rare feat in the past 59 years of the WDC F1