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#1 fil2.8

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 15:10

Guy,s i've been pondering . Ever since I first got interested in the racing scene in the early '60's it was quite easy to identify most riders from their helmet design which stayed with them almost universally all there career . It was common even before then .
At what stage did this seem to cease , and WHY ???
I expect there is a explanation of some sort , but it was so much easier to see who was who !!
What do you think ??

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#2 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 15:25

Guy,s i've been pondering . Ever since I first got interested in the racing scene in the early '60's it was quite easy to identify most riders from their helmet design which stayed with them almost universally all there career . It was common even before then .
At what stage did this seem to cease , and WHY ???
I expect there is a explanation of some sort , but it was so much easier to see who was who !!
What do you think ??


When the manufacturers began to produce designs on helmets ? The puddin basin was plain silver from new and Bell helmets were available in a small range of plain colours - the Star in only white or orange? I certainly agree that things were far better in our day.......cos as you say Phil, it was dead easy to ID pretty much everyone (of the quicks at least).

I still have my old Cromwell and it seems to be wearable, well if it were legal; not so the Bell Star which has totally disintergrated on the inside.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 30 August 2009 - 15:51.


#3 mfd

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 17:09

At what stage did this cease, and WHY ???

I guess you mean the recent trend of elaborate "art" styles Phil? Today there are commercial interests that drive the sale of helmets. The cost of suporting a Moto GP rider is repaid from the sale of replica helmets. In the case of the one I'm most familiar with, they actively encourage the riders to evolve their designs, so they can re-issue a new replica. Think football shirt marketing.


#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 17:14

You have a similar situation in NASCAR with the cars themselves. For a random sampling check out all the Texaco/Havoline variations

http://jayski.com/sc.../2005/42cup.htm

And of course you have to buy die-cast models of them all to complete the set...

#5 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 19:37

This subject has been discussed at length in the four-wheeled section. To me the riders in the 1960s often had nice clear easy to identify helmet designs. Phil Read's black and white design, Peter Williams' navy blue and white; Mike Hailwood's gold and white. Wonderful. Nowadays I fail to recognise almost everyone, especially the F1 drivers. All from the pavement pizza design school and looking identical. Damon Hill and Jo Siffert come back, please!

Don't get me started on the size of numbers on F1 cars either :-( I thought there was a regulation style and size?

#6 ensign14

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 20:28

Jo Siffert of course copied his from Benoit Musy.

#7 mfd

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 23:03

Don't get me started on the size of numbers on F1 cars either :-( I thought there was a regulation style and size?

Why do they need numbers?


#8 Russell Burrows

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 07:18

Why do they need numbers?


Cos not everyone that rocks up is familiar with the sport, its cars/bikes and drivers/riders.... Encouraging new attendees is not important ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 09 July 2010 - 10:08.


#9 mfd

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 10:57

Cos not everyone that rocks up is familiar with the sport, it's cars/bikes and drivers/riders.... Encouraging new attendees is not important ?

Possibly Russell, but that wasn't what I was thinking. Iin the case I'm talking about the livery of the car is so strong, the colour scheme shouts who it is, except in the case of differentiating the two team cars apart. Totally appropriate to have numbers where there are larger numbers of cars or bikes and the bodywork is similar or identical - I'm thinking white fairings.

#10 Wilyman

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 09:52

When the manufacturers began to produce designs on helmets ? The puddin basin was plain silver from new and Bell helmets were available in a small range of plain colours - the Star in only white or orange? I certainly agree that things were far better in our day.......cos as you say Phil, it was dead easy to ID pretty much everyone (of the quicks at least).

I still have my old Cromwell and it seems to be wearable, well if it were legal; not so the Bell Star which has totally disintergrated on the inside.



Russel,
I have an old, circa'70 Bell Star bought as a project, paint and restore the innards.
What I find incredible is the weight and the lack of vision, like looking through a letterbox.
Having an "off" with the Bell would have broken the riders neck. :(

#11 Rennmax

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 10:33

Russel,
I have an old, circa'70 Bell Star bought as a project, paint and restore the innards.
What I find incredible is the weight and the lack of vision, like looking through a letterbox.
Having an "off" with the Bell would have broken the riders neck. :(



IIRC, the very early Bell Star was not approved by the ACU because the outline at the back of the helmet was hazardous to the neck in the event of a crash

#12 Russell Burrows

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 17:52

IIRC, the very early Bell Star was not approved by the ACU because the outline at the back of the helmet was hazardous to the neck in the event of a crash


Yes Renn, I recall something like that. I know there was much discussion about the weight too and the potential whiplash type effect; I think it was the Sweedes who refused to allow them, at least the very early Star.


#13 Russell Burrows

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 17:59

Russel,
I have an old, circa'70 Bell Star bought as a project, paint and restore the innards.
What I find incredible is the weight and the lack of vision, like looking through a letterbox.
Having an "off" with the Bell would have broken the riders neck. :(


Yeah, mega heavy and a tiny window. I had a crash soon after using one and can recall laying on the ground when sort of winded with the feeling that the lower bar type thing was pressed against my mouth...... :eek: (flip flop, Oran Park, Sydney)

Edited by Russell Burrows, 06 September 2009 - 21:06.


#14 Simpson RX1

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 23:35

Guy,s i've been pondering . Ever since I first got interested in the racing scene in the early '60's it was quite easy to identify most riders from their helmet design which stayed with them almost universally all there career . It was common even before then .
At what stage did this seem to cease , and WHY ???
I expect there is a explanation of some sort , but it was so much easier to see who was who !!
What do you think ??



I go along with MFD's explanation that's it's all about marketing and revenue, but the 'when' is a bit more difficult, although it was some time ago.

I bought a Wes Cooley replica Arai in 1986 and that was available with the predominant colour either base red or metallic blue.

Even earlier than that, I'm pretty certain that you could get Kenny Roberts replicas in either yellow or red, the red version coinciding with Marlboro becoming title sponsors of Yamaha, which might start to answer your question; it happened when riders were paid enough money by their sponsors to change their designs to suit the corporate colours.



#15 BK11

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 13:46

Yes Renn, I recall something like that. I know there was much discussion about the weight too and the potential whiplash type effect; I think it was the Sweedes who refused to allow them, at least the very early Star.



As the person who first presented a Bell Star helmet to the ACU, this is the true story. The old pudding basin helmets and the would be helmets made in the UK with like ear muff design , all had one thing in common. They had a string harness in them which the inspectors would pull vigorously and if the harness did not come loose, the helmet passed the test. The Bell Star did not have this string webbing, which was thought to be designed to lessen the impact when the helmet hit the tarmac or anything else, so the poor old guys at the ACU had to rethink. As the Snell regulation for helmets had been introduced in the US some years earlier and the impact readings which we were sent from Bell Toptex showed the pudding basin disintegrating at about 10% of the pressures that the Bell Star was passed at, it didn't take too long for the good old ACU to come to the party and put their stickers on the Bell Star and the open face TX 500 and Magnum helmets. After all, the four wheeled guys had been wearing Bell Star helmets for a couple of years.I will admit that there could be a danger of breaking collar bones with a direct impact into an immovable object such as Armco or a wall, as I broke my collarbone when I went head first into the banking at Cadwell in 1969 but I suffered no facial abrasions or other damage. The later helmets had more padding around the collar very soon after this was reported back to Bell Toptex.

Cheers
Brian Kemp

#16 Russell Burrows

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 13:53

I will admit that there could be a danger of breaking collar bones with a direct impact into an immovable object such as Armco or a wall, as I broke my collarbone when I went head first into the banking at Cadwell in 1969 but I suffered no facial abrasions or other damage. The later helmets had more padding around the collar very soon after this was reported back to Bell Toptex.

Cheers
Brian Kemp


You didn't tell me this when you tried to flog me one......  ;)


#17 bevelheadgreg

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:50

Can anyone help with this? Reasearching helmet paintwork for Benzina magazine nad wonder why certain designs exist? Some are obvious -Ago's Tricolore Peter William's "W", but Hailwoods gold/red/white? Reads white on black?

#18 GD66

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 11:57

Calling Russell...Russell, line 1.... :)

#19 mfd

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 12:12

why certain designs exist? Read's white on black?

Phil Read (Luton Boy) Black & white = Luton Town FC colours?

Edited by mfd, 25 June 2010 - 12:20.


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#20 Hasselhoff

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 12:39

Luton Town FC colours?

No they are orange and navy and white.

#21 mfd

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 12:41

No they are orange and navy and white.

Not in the 1960's chap. His original design he credits (P20 "Phil Read, the Real Story") to similar to that of Bill Lomas' helmet

Edited by mfd, 25 June 2010 - 12:48.


#22 ensign14

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Posted 25 June 2010 - 12:52

No they are orange and navy and white.

Not originally, they adopted the orange in the 1970s. Indeed they went back to white shirts, black shorts fairly quickly, via a detour of navy shorts, although orange has been a change kit staple.

#23 husky410

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 21:57

I loved it when riders could be identified by their helmets, late 60's 70's, and even into the 80's. Todays helmets look like someone has spewed up on them! When I returned to racing Supermotard I had my Shoei painted like a cow skin so anyone could recognize who I was. It did stick out and had a few comments such as "You're that guy with the cow helmet."

#24 fil2.8

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 22:06

I loved it when riders could be identified by their helmets, late 60's 70's, and even into the 80's. Todays helmets look like someone has spewed up on them! When I returned to racing Supermotard I had my Shoei painted like a cow skin so anyone could recognize who I was. It did stick out and had a few comments such as "You're that guy with the cow helmet."

:lol: :lol: , like it :up:



#25 Ronaldo

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 09:32

When the manufacturers began to produce designs on helmets ? The puddin basin was plain silver from new and Bell helmets were available in a small range of plain colours - the Star in only white or orange? I certainly agree that things were far better in our day.......cos as you say Phil, it was dead easy to ID pretty much everyone (of the quicks at least).

I still have my old Cromwell and it seems to be wearable, well if it were legal; not so the Bell Star which has totally disintergrated on the inside.


Russell, your Cromwell is legal if it still has its kitemark. Look for BS2001:1956 and newer.

#26 Rennmax

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 10:01

Russell, your Cromwell is legal if it still has its kitemark. Look for BS2001:1956 and newer.


I'm afraid the ECE 22/NN certification is compulsory since a couple of years, sorry for losing your splendid isolation :kiss:

#27 Ronaldo

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 10:12

I'm afraid the ECE 22/NN certification is compulsory since a couple of years, sorry for losing your splendid isolation :kiss:


Yes, when buying new.



#28 Rennmax

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:01

Yes, when buying new.


Merry England, any policeman here in Germany will laugh at you when you tell him him that your lid was legal 40 years ago, so it has to be legal today :rolleyes:

#29 fil2.8

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:06

Merry England, any policeman here in Germany will laugh at you when you tell him him that your lid was legal 40 years ago, so it has to be legal today :rolleyes:


:lol: :lol: :rotfl: :lol: :lol:




#30 Russell Burrows

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:55

Merry England, any policeman here in Germany will laugh at you when you tell him him that your lid was legal 40 years ago, so it has to be legal today :rolleyes:


Hi Renn, have to say I've seen some pretty eccentric head gear in Deutschland :wave:


#31 mfd

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:55

Merry England, any policeman here in Germany will laugh at you when you tell him him that your lid was legal 40 years ago, so it has to be legal today :rolleyes:

Before 1973, a cloth cap or nothing at all would have been legal...

#32 Rennmax

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Posted 09 July 2010 - 12:10

Hi Renn, have to say I've seen some pretty eccentric head gear in Deutschland :wave:


Hi Russ, hopefully you're not refering to these HD and trike blokes with German WW2 helmets :stoned: , well you can wear anything including what is called "braincap" over here as long as you are not getting in contact with our charming police...or you need such a device in a crash . Wasn't there a ad by Bell in the seventies, somethin like "if you have a head only worth 5 dollars, buy a helmet for 5 dollars"

Edited by Rennmax, 09 July 2010 - 17:25.


#33 rotrax

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 20:07

IIRC, the very early Bell Star was not approved by the ACU because the outline at the back of the helmet was hazardous to the neck in the event of a crash

Hi Renn, Just picked up on this post.Iremember Barry Briggs using a Bell at Wimbledon Speedway one night and looking very space age.The track had been modified to give a concrete surface on the bends for Stock Car racing, but this was not fenced off. Towards the end of the meeting shale had got on to the new concrete which looked like the rest of the track. Briggo rode on this bit and came down big time. It looked as if the handlebar got between the chinguard and Briggos face and the bike dragged him along on his chest, he was wriggling like a hooked fish! I am sure this was the first use by a top Speedway rider in the U.K. I was early with a full face in club racing, first a Trackstar and then a Griffin. The Griffin was my favourite apart from the weight,which was enough to cause neck fatigue when accelerating and braking fron high speed. Funny,I did not notice it on the vintage bikes. I always used the optional 1.5mm thick visors with the built in vent holes. Fairy Liquid was the preffered anti mist treatment before Bob Heaths spray. At a wet Mallory I had bubbles inside from the Fairy that had collected on the wire gauze vents-the airflow was perfect for this.Made the old mince pies sting a bit. I always liked Joe Dunphys helmet design and his choice of colour. The well known Vintage racer Mike VanGucci worked for Scammel trucks as a development engineer.You could tell the colour of next years truck cab from the colour of his pudding basin. Best Regards,Rotrax.