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Massa's Recovery


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#1 Clatter

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:02

Looking around there seems to be very little news on the current status of Massa's recovery. On the BBC Brundle said that he was going to have a metal plate inserted in his skull. From that I think it's safe to assume that he won't be back this season.

Does anyone know any more details? Is there anything in the Brazilian press?

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#2 Anomnader

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:11

Looking around there seems to be very little news on the current status of Massa's recovery. On the BBC Brundle said that he was going to have a metal plate inserted in his skull. From that I think it's safe to assume that he won't be back this season.

Does anyone know any more details? Is there anything in the Brazilian press?



On autosport, check the front page, next 3 days off to see a famous florida doctor to see if he is able to be ready for Monza and beyond, they will then anounce monza drivers.

#3 saudoso

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:12

Massa is in the US where he has an appointment with some IndyCar head trauma specialist that I don't remmeber the name tomorror.

He had scans this week and the talk is everything is running better than expected.

#4 Anomnader

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:14

Massa is in the US where he has an appointment with some IndyCar head trauma specialist that I don't remmeber the name tomorror.

He had scans this week and the talk is everything is running better than expected.


Well, I didn't take it as positive as you have, he's locking ok, but still lot of checks, ferrari going to base a lot of decisions on it.

#5 Oracle

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:20

well I heard he still has some problems with his left eye - sometimes it is okay but sometimes not - some variation in the sight - 95 % of the normal.... whatever that means

source: Brazilian journos through Oskari Saari

#6 Clatter

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:34

So is the metal plate bit correct?

#7 Oracle

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:45

Good try to stir it up with your lies, main troll

http://www.autosport..._334567_HiRes-2

#8 saudoso

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:51

Well, I didn't take it as positive as you have, he's locking ok, but still lot of checks, ferrari going to base a lot of decisions on it.


This better than expected line was by his press officer here in Brazil (I think) who was live on radio this morning right before the race.


#9 Anomnader

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:54

This better than expected line was by his press officer here in Brazil (I think) who was live on radio this morning right before the race.


Well, wouldn't know anything about that.


I think its positive if he ever comes back to F1.
I think talk of returning this year is dumb, even if it happens, health is too important.

#10 Oracle

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:55

I think the team spirits will be very high next season at Ferrari when Massa is back and the team feels bad of all the media crap and speculation Kimi has been forced to listen

#11 Anomnader

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 23:59

I think the team spirits will be very high next season at Ferrari when Massa is back and the team feels bad of all the media crap and speculation Kimi has been forced to listen


eh? they're causing the media crap. :confused:

Edited by Anomnader, 30 August 2009 - 23:59.


#12 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:01

eh? they're causing the media crap. :confused:


who?

#13 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:02

who?



and the team feels bad of all the media crap and speculation Kimi has been forced to listen

#14 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:06

sorry if my english is not that good :(


I mean - they are more symphatetic towards Kimi than before - cos they have known all year where Kimi drives in 2010 - so they feel more for him becuase so many people outside the team has questioned his place at Ferrari

Edited by Oracle, 31 August 2009 - 00:44.


#15 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:12

All they have to do is say, next year, our drivers are:----------------------------

They are not prepared to do that, for reasons we all know

Edited by Anomnader, 31 August 2009 - 00:13.


#16 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:18

All they have to do is say, next year, our drivers are:----------------------------

They are not prepared to do that, for reasons we all know


I think Domi said today Kimi and Massa has a contract for 2010 - what more do you want

#17 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:19

I think Domi said today Kimi and Massa has a contract for 2010 - what more do you want



Thats called fudging, and you know it.

#18 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:23

Thats called fudging, and you know it.


well I personally don't believe Ferrari would break their word on any driver



#19 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:24

well I personally don't believe Ferrari would break their word on any driver


and thats why they are fudging there comments by sitting on the fence.

Having a contract for 2010 is different from driving from them in 2010

Edited by Anomnader, 31 August 2009 - 00:43.


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#20 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:39

maybe you think they are cheats but I don't see it that way

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Massa or Kimi but of what the Ferrari people think of themselves

The constantly go on babbling about how it is a family and what I hear from Mika Salo for instance is that they really make them feel that way even after their careers

So I don't think they would betray Kimi and make him an enemy cos they do have a contract and that would be breaking their word no matter how shit he would be

And lets not forget he is a WDC which means very much in the Ferrari camp - of course that won't make their affection for Massa smaler in anyway - they will be both around in 2010 - and to betray Massa after his accident would be maybbe even worse - so don't believe in that either

#21 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:46

Is this the same Salo, that tells it like it is and slags them off about their tactics?

The problem is you are talking the words at face value and not reading what they are not saying.

I'll repeat again:


Saying they have a contract for next year is not the same as saying they will drive next year, there is no lying or cheating there, they just arn't answering the question how its meant.

#22 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 00:48

Is this the same Salo, that tells it like it is and slags them off about their tactics?

The problem is you are talking the words at face value and not reading what they are not saying.

I'll repeat again:


Saying they have a contract for next year is not the same as saying they will drive next year, there is no lying or cheating there, they just arn't answering the question how its meant.



Well you will soon find out - they don't make announcments while they are pushing the cars to the pits

EDIT: Yeah - Mika speak what is on his mind - like most of the Finns - cos we don't speak shit - and when we say something we mean it. It is of course possible I am reading the Ferrari culture wrong - but so far I do still have great faith in them and their word.

Edited by Oracle, 31 August 2009 - 00:52.


#23 MickStephenson

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:07

Well you will soon find out - they don't make announcments while they are pushing the cars to the pits

EDIT: Yeah - Mika speak what is on his mind - like most of the Finns - cos we don't speak shit - and when we say something we mean it. It is of course possible I am reading the Ferrari culture wrong - but so far I do still have great faith in them and their word.


Presumably since Ferrari value their family values so much there is no way Alonso will be driving for them next year then?

#24 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:14

Presumably since Ferrari value their family values so much there is no way Alonso will be driving for them next year then?


Well I was think maybe there has been negotiations of 2011 and make Kimi and Felipe race of the contract for 2011 - but now of course it would be unethical to scare Massa while he is on sick leave

Another possibility is that they are stalling up the drivers market deliberately to make it more difficult for others - we will soon find out - And it will really interesting to see if Badoer will still drive in Monza - I would not be surprised if he did

Edited by Oracle, 31 August 2009 - 01:15.


#25 Anomnader

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:19

Oracle

How old are you? are you below the age of 20?

I don't want to be nasty but you are being very naive?

I doubt F1 operates differently from any normal business in day to day life and if theres on thing I've learned, for one reason or another, if a company can save a buck, get something better for cheaper, or just generally screw the employee if they have to they will, no matter how friendly they are.

This "family" talk is just crap, it rarely exists in the real world, they will do what they want whether kimi likes it or not, and they'll also do the same to Massa, the only difference is bad publicity.






#26 MickStephenson

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:28

Well I was think maybe there has been negotiations of 2011 and make Kimi and Felipe race of the contract for 2011 - but now of course it would be unethical to scare Massa while he is on sick leave

Another possibility is that they are stalling up the drivers market deliberately to make it more difficult for others - we will soon find out - And it will really interesting to see if Badoer will still drive in Monza - I would not be surprised if he did

It seems unlikely that if they won't bring Alonso in until 2011 that they would have negotiated with Alonso this year, unless the rumours are completely unfounded.
All emotions aside, I think if Massa isn't back in the car this year, how can Ferrari gamble on his form for next year? If Ferrari have signed Alonso I see no need in Ferrari holding up the driver market as the only issue is which driver they release, either way the longer they leave it to ditch a driver the worse position that leaves the driver they cut loose to find a competitive drive for next year, which isn't very family values.
I think basically it will pan out like this, if Massa gets back in the seat this year and performs well Kimi will be looking for a ride next year, otherwise next years lineup will be Kimi and Fernando.

As for Badoer is he is still driving for Monza it would just go to show that Ferrari don't give 2 sh*ts about the WCC this year.

#27 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:48

Oracle

How old are you? are you below the age of 20?

I don't want to be nasty but you are being very naive?

I doubt F1 operates differently from any normal business in day to day life and if theres on thing I've learned, for one reason or another, if a company can save a buck, get something better for cheaper, or just generally screw the employee if they have to they will, no matter how friendly they are.

This "family" talk is just crap, it rarely exists in the real world, they will do what they want whether kimi likes it or not, and they'll also do the same to Massa, the only difference is bad publicity.


Actually your post shows you don't know much. Many big corporation say their values are the most important thing. Of course there are differneces in this - especially the banking crisis comes to mind - but I think there are 2 totally different strategies how big businesses are run - Shareholder Value - which is maximizing the profit and just that - it has wide support in especially in America - but then there are companies that think that the best business strategy is to take into consideration other things too - this is called the Stakeholder Value - which means they emphases on many things intead of one: responsibility over profitability - this is more popular in Europe. Of course as a Finn as an example of a Stakeholder Value company Nokia comes to mind 1st.

Even if I run a business myself I am not so into theories - and could be wrong that the Stakeholder Value is based on Robert Neish's theories - you know him if you saw the movie Beautiful Mind - he proved that winning strategy for a game is where all the players gains as much as possible not just one player - therfore the "Stakeholders" take into consideration more the sorrounding society, employees, even environment - cos they plan to win the game - not just short term maximize the profit. Personally I believe more in this. Maybe Lehmans should have too.

Anything else on your mind. Oh and i am 45 - have followed F1 for 30 years and have been in sports at international level when I was younger so I know soomething about team spirits too - and yes I would very much want to run a cycling team with Asslonso in Tour de France - even if cycling was not my thing :D

#28 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 01:56

It seems unlikely that if they won't bring Alonso in until 2011 that they would have negotiated with Alonso this year, unless the rumours are completely unfounded.


Why not. Kimi's Ferrari deal was negotiated at much earlier stage.

#29 MickStephenson

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 02:03

Even if I run a business myself I am not so into theories - and could be wrong that the Stakeholder Value is based on Robert Neish's theories - you know him if you saw the movie Beautiful Mind - he proved that winning strategy for a game is where all the players gains as much as possible not just one player - therfore the "Stakeholders" take into consideration more the sorrounding society, employees, even environment - cos they plan to win the game - not just short term maximize the profit. Personally I believe more in this. Maybe Lehmans should have too.


I think you mean John Nash, and his theories actually showed the complete opposite that it is always better to choose to screw over your opponent because it is the choice of least risk and lead to the formation of the free market, neo-conservative fiscal doctrine which the Lehman Brothers adhered to.
You should watch the documentary 3 part documentary "The Trap" by Adam Curtis the first episode "**** you Buddy" is all about Nash

Edited by MickStephenson, 31 August 2009 - 02:32.


#30 aditya-now

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:14

Here a complete update on Massa and his possible start at Monza:


http://www.crash.net...nza_return.html

#31 Henrik B

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 09:23

Here a complete update on Massa and his possible start at Monza:


http://www.crash.net...nza_return.html


There is no possible start at Monza. Someone, quite likely the headline writer, is talking out of his ass.

#32 Oracle

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:38

I think you mean John Nash, and his theories actually showed the complete opposite that it is always better to choose to screw over your opponent because it is the choice of least risk and lead to the formation of the free market, neo-conservative fiscal doctrine which the Lehman Brothers adhered to.
You should watch the documentary 3 part documentary "The Trap" by Adam Curtis the first episode "**** you Buddy" is all about Nash



Thanks for the tip. I will look into that film. Well I was not sure where the two strategies spring from like I said. That doesn't mean there aren't many companies who prefer Stakeholder Value over Shareholder value. And I am pretty sure Lehman was a Shareholder Value company - that is what I meant.

#33 Mandzipop

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 11:43

Here a complete update on Massa and his possible start at Monza:


http://www.crash.net...nza_return.html


Impossible. He hasn't been allowed to do any physical training since the accident. He hasn't even got full vision in his eye yet, its at 95% and its that 5% that a driver needs. One day its fine then the next days its not.

He said he is going to do some karting before he gets into a car. The tests are today, that is why they are delaying the replacement news.

#34 potmotr

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:07

So is the metal plate bit correct?


I thought that was quite interesting too.

Metal plate = serious skull damage that won't repair itself in a normal way.

I'm not sure what the implications are for a person with a metal plate and repeat head injury.

If he can't race with a plate then his career is over.


#35 BlackCat

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 12:35

anybody here remembers the end of Stirling Moss' career? i'm not saying anything about Massa's career - just that no test outside of racing car on a circuit can tell anything about fitness as a racing driver.

#36 Juan Kerr

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 13:05

I thought that was quite interesting too.

Metal plate = serious skull damage that won't repair itself in a normal way.

I'm not sure what the implications are for a person with a metal plate and repeat head injury.

If he can't race with a plate then his career is over.

Why is everyone so pesimistic and seeking sensation all the time ? He will race again and he's not gonna die !

#37 Henrik B

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 14:27

Why is everyone so pesimistic and seeking sensation all the time ? He will race again and he's not gonna die !


I would say that some are realistic (no, he will NOT drive in Monza) and some are overly optimistic. Sensationalist, no, I don't think so. Hell, some were seriously asking if he would be OK to race on sunday, even after the pictures with the cracked helmet appeared...

He will not die, but we cannot know if he will race again. It's too early to tell. That's all some are saying. If you break a leg, it will heal. If you break your skull, it MAY not heal enough to race again. All positive press releases aside, it's a fact that for instance you can develop epilepsy several months after these kinds of accidents. IF that happens, and the risk is not insignificant, he will never race again.

I am NOT trying to "seek sensation", I simply am trying to make people aware of the realities here. I wish Massa a speedy recovery as everyone else, but NO ONE KNOWS what the outcome will be.

#38 Juan Kerr

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 15:54

I would say that some are realistic (no, he will NOT drive in Monza) and some are overly optimistic. Sensationalist, no, I don't think so. Hell, some were seriously asking if he would be OK to race on sunday, even after the pictures with the cracked helmet appeared...

He will not die, but we cannot know if he will race again. It's too early to tell. That's all some are saying. If you break a leg, it will heal. If you break your skull, it MAY not heal enough to race again. All positive press releases aside, it's a fact that for instance you can develop epilepsy several months after these kinds of accidents. IF that happens, and the risk is not insignificant, he will never race again.

I am NOT trying to "seek sensation", I simply am trying to make people aware of the realities here. I wish Massa a speedy recovery as everyone else, but NO ONE KNOWS what the outcome will be.

Don't even think about it in the first place, its highly likely that everything will be fine so that's that, don't bother considering the worst case scenario or even the less likely outcomes its a waste of time. I don't understand why people love doing that.
Kimi Raikkonen is highly likely to race at Monza I suppose all sorts of things could stop him but I'm not gonna harp on about the 'ifs' and 'buts' of that.

#39 potmotr

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 15:57

Why is everyone so pesimistic and seeking sensation all the time ? He will race again and he's not gonna die !


Where did I say he's going to die?

And how do we know he's going to race again?

One day we're hearing he'll be back by Monza, the next that he needs major surgery to have a protective metal plate attached to his skull.

They only do this if doctors feel the skull won't recover to a sufficient strength.

Not the kind of skull you'd then want to expose to the dangers of a high speed motor racing environment.

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#40 teewoods

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 16:04

Why is everyone so pesimistic and seeking sensation all the time ? He will race again and he's not gonna die !




I wont put it past some people hoping he does not come back to Ferrari - they know who they are!

#41 Arska

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 16:04

There are plenty of issues left.

First, will his eye sight go back to 100% ever again?
Second, if everything is ok for a test session, when can they arrange it - no in-season testing, remember? Surely they can't announce Felipe as a race driver for 2010 yet since his speed could be lost forever, just like Wendlinger in -94.
Third, even if rumors are 100% true and Ferrari intended to get rid of Kimi, they simply have to consider things again - because of Felipe's serious injury and Kimi's excellent performances lately. This is assuming that Alonso really is signed up already.

The one that should be seriously concerned about his F1 future is Felipe, and I have no doubt that he is. But what can he do, with his injury?


#42 Odvan

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 16:24

Later today we probably get some news after tests in Miami. Or it will be 3 days tests?

#43 Mandzipop

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 17:00

Later today we probably get some news after tests in Miami. Or it will be 3 days tests?


I think it will be later today, its not 3 days of testing.

#44 Music Lover

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 22:32

Second, if everything is ok for a test session, when can they arrange it - no in-season testing, remember?

yes, he can test the same car as MS did.
Lap times will give all of us hints despite driving a 2 year old F1!
it's not only raw speed it's also about consistency...

#45 Odvan

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 22:44

So no news?

#46 Mandzipop

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 22:50

yes, he can test the same car as MS did.
Lap times will give all of us hints despite driving a 2 year old F1!
it's not only raw speed it's also about consistency...


Is he a member of Corse Clienti?

I thought MS only became a member because of the Ferrari FXX. That is what allowed him to drive one of their cars. I'm not totally sure on the rules but I thought you had to join the club to drive one of their cars.

#47 werks prototype

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 22:53

I can see 'all' the teams giving Felipe a special dispensation to test if required, purely on grounds of compassion. The Schumacher thing was an entirely different context, some would say a 'PR' show context. Williams are canny but they aren't bastards. Massa would be back in his F60.

#48 F1Johnny

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 22:53

Is he a member of Corse Clienti?

I thought MS only became a member because of the Ferrari FXX. That is what allowed him to drive one of their cars. I'm not totally sure on the rules but I thought you had to join the club to drive one of their cars.


I am sure they would have no problem letting Massa drive the car.


#49 engel

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 23:03

Is he a member of Corse Clienti?

I thought MS only became a member because of the Ferrari FXX. That is what allowed him to drive one of their cars. I'm not totally sure on the rules but I thought you had to join the club to drive one of their cars.


it's not a member's club ... you can buy a Ferrari racecar and become a "member", I m sure if necessary they can sell him one for $2 :)
http://www.ferrariow...lienti/text.asp

#50 speedmaster

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Posted 31 August 2009 - 23:14

There are plenty of issues left.

First, will his eye sight go back to 100% ever again?
Second, if everything is ok for a test session, when can they arrange it - no in-season testing, remember? Surely they can't announce Felipe as a race driver for 2010 yet since his speed could be lost forever, just like Wendlinger in -94.
Third, even if rumors are 100% true and Ferrari intended to get rid of Kimi, they simply have to consider things again - because of Felipe's serious injury and Kimi's excellent performances lately. This is assuming that Alonso really is signed up already.

The one that should be seriously concerned about his F1 future is Felipe, and I have no doubt that he is. But what can he do, with his injury?



Despite all cheer against he will be back at full speed... the kid is not easy to scare of... just write it down... he will be back faster than ever....