62 replies to this topic

[kiwi a110]

I don't suppose that anyone has any photos (or details) of the cars used in the 1960's?
Next year is the 50th of the introduction of the 404, and any help with "stuff" would be appreciated.
Thanks

[rhegra]

...take a look there: http://www.forum-aut...t344840-175.htm. There is a search function on the top right too.

[Ray Bell]

Hmmm...

I'm pretty sure the 404 was introduced in 1959.

[kiwi a110]

Hmmm...

I'm pretty sure the 404 was introduced in 1959.

Sorry Ray this may be a first but... introduced at the Paris Motor Show May 1960 (according to Peugeot Sochaux)

[RCH]

Sorry Ray this may be a first but... introduced at the Paris Motor Show May 1960 (according to Peugeot Sochaux)

Interesting, it would seem that Peugeot don't know when they introduced their own car!

On the other hand perhaps my memory as a 10 year old is playing me false? Way back in either 1959 or before March 1960 a Czech friend (living in the UK) of my father replaced his Simca with a Peugeot 404. I remember him giving me a ride to school in it and I left that school in March 1960. I remember it because the Peugeot was NEW and to British eyes seemed very exotic (as indeed did the Simca).

[Ray Bell]

The C3 gearbox (the first without an overdriven top gear) and the first of the 4.2:1 worm drives came late in 1958 in the Peugeot 403...

At the same time, axle tubes (with a new spring location) and rear dampers were changed to be identical to those in the first of the 404s.

So, apart from the engines, all the mechanical pieces of the 404 were in production at that time.

I don't know where I would go to confirm the 1959 release of the new model, but I was very well-read on these things during the seventies. It was probably in a book about car models in the library at Racing Car News.

In Australia, of course, we didn't see the 404 until mid-1961. These arrived with the abovementioned drive train identical to the 403, the 3-bearing engine and 10" front brakes that were wider than 403 front brakes. At some time seemingly immediately prior to the release in Australia the front brakes were upgraded from those of the 403 (10" x 1¾") to the first bespoke 404 brakes, 10" x 2¼" from memory, while some of those early cars also had the screw-on radiator cap the same as 203s if memory serves. Australian production all had a conventional radiator cap.

I have owned or worked on cars with each of the three 10" brake configurations (the drums varied on the 2¼" brake cars), with two of them being very early cars which were privately imported. These also had large square vents in the ends of the dash for facial fresh air rather that the later rotating round vents which were on all that were sold here by Peugeot.

Again from memory, it was 1963 when the first 11" x 2⅝" front brakes arrived, still with the original rear end in place with the exception of some detail on the end of the axles. Then (1964?) came the 5-bearing engine and a larger worm wheel in the rear axle which necessitated a change to the right hand axle tube. The original spline size was retained here until 1967, when axle sizes were enlarged and a ribbed housing fitted to the differentials.

1968 saw the introduction of the BA7 gearbox with hydraulic clutch. In 1969 came disc front brakes (12¾" diameter IIRC) on the sedans with a huge booster in the engine bay. This booster had been in use in Europe since about 1964 or so, probably coinciding with the introduction of the Kugelfischer injected engines, they being fitted along with the complex 'Aerostable' front brakes.

I used to have all these things firmly fixed in mind as I wrecked out perhaps 40 or so 404s over the years. Wagon configurations added a small amount of extra detail to changes with the hypoid rear axle coming in 1967 and so on.

The best choice of rear axle, to my way of thinking, was the 1965-66 version. This had the larger bronze wormwheel and the original axle spline size, which was never a drama... I have never seen one of these axles break. Later wormwheels did occasionally 'grow' out of round, according to the late Jack Nelson of Merrylands, who knew these things inside out, though they also had slightly beefier parts in the differential assembly.

Another change in 1968 was the introduction of a larger anti-roll bar on the front along with a small one at the rear, necessitating a slight change to the alloy casting of the axle tubes. I think this change was a sop to the weaklings who didn't like the body roll that the cars gained as they surefootedly traced their path around corners.

Kugelfischer 404s were never sold in Australia. Another significant change was the fitment of long-reach spark plugs which I'm fairly sure began with the 5-bearing engine. There was a small cast-in 'CL' on the front of the cylinder head near the generator bracket to identify this change without having to guess or go to a lot of trouble.

I know none of this adds to the discussion about what year they were released, but it may be of interest.

Edited by Ray Bell, 05 September 2009 - 13:57.

[Milan Fistonic]

In The Autocar road test, May 1960 is given as the introduction date of the the Peugeot 404.

[kiwi a110]

Interesting, it would seem that Peugeot don't know when they introduced their own car!

On the other hand perhaps my memory as a 10 year old is playing me false? Way back in either 1959 or before March 1960 a Czech friend (living in the UK) of my father replaced his Simca with a Peugeot 404. I remember him giving me a ride to school in it and I left that school in March 1960. I remember it because the Peugeot was NEW and to British eyes seemed very exotic (as indeed did the Simca).

Hi RCH I am sorry to remind you that all the OFFICIAL releases at the time ie not now, but when they actually released the car,from Peugeot quote Paris Motor Show May 60, and apparently NO prior release cars. There are many sources of this so I think you will find this to be more correct than your memory as a 10 year old.
Now why would it have looked exotic to British eyes (Think Austin Cambridge/Morris Oxford which was certainly on the market in 1962). Is it possible that your dad's friend had a 403? Now that did look different!
FWIW my mother who has been an author of historical documents for the last 70 years has unquestionably cocked up when we got our first 404, only by 6 months but has caused some diary searching to prove who was right. And she has kept a diary for every day of her life since she tuned 16 and she is now 93. (And it was me who was right, May 65) and the family has now owned somewhere around 11 of the 404s.
Ray, I can agree that there were many "cross-over" parts and this continued for some years as the 403 continued in production for some years till 66? (and I did not need to tell you that I know).

Edited by kiwi a110, 06 September 2009 - 08:24.

[RCH]

Hi Kiwi, I guess you are probably right, it may have been a trip earlier in the Simca I am remembering. He certainly bought a 404 as soon as they were available but we had moved from the area in March 1960 so it must have been on trip back when I saw it.

It definately was not a 403 because it was a new release. Growing up in Birmingham in the 1950's I rarely saw anything that was not made at Longbridge, Coventry or Dagenham. I suppose Renault Dauphines were around but they were UK assembled; the odd VW, Traction Avant or "ponton" Merc. Otherwise unremitting Austin Cambridges, Ford Pops and Hillman Minxes! Peugeots were virtually unheard of.

[GIGLEUX]

Hi RCH I am sorry to remind you that all the OFFICIAL releases at the time ie not now, but when they actually released the car,from Peugeot quote Paris Motor Show May 60, and apparently NO prior release cars. There are many sources of this so I think you will find this to be more correct than your memory as a 10 year old.

The 404 was officialy showed during the 1960 spring. Note that the Paris Motor Show was always during the first days of october!

[Vitesse2]

The 404 was officialy showed during the 1960 spring. Note that the Paris Motor Show was always during the first days of october!

... immediately after the London Motor Show. The traditional Spring motor show was/is Geneva: if - as was usually the case - it was first shown at a salon I'm sure it would have been there.

(Motor Sport's brief review of cars at Earl's Court '59 includes the 403, but makes no mention of the 404.)

As for "exotic" - well, hardly, given that Farina managed to sell almost exactly the same design to BMC and Peugeot!

Edited by Vitesse2, 06 September 2009 - 14:51.

[RCH]

... immediately after the London Motor Show. The traditional Spring motor show was/is Geneva: if - as was usually the case - it was first shown at a salon I'm sure it would have been there.

(Motor Sport's brief review of cars at Earl's Court '59 includes the 403, but makes no mention of the 404.)

As for "exotic" - well, hardly, given that Farina managed to sell almost exactly the same design to BMC and Peugeot!

My choice of the word "exotic" was because foriegn cars were unusual in 1959/60 Britain, UK assembled Citroens and Renaults were known, but Peugeots? Definitely unusual! I suppose a Peugeot 404 would have been seen by most as an Austin Cambridge at the time, but not to a car mad ten year old. The Farina design "fitted" the Peugeot far better than the BMC cars which always, to me, seemed distinctly clumsy.

[Team Gunston]

My choice of the word "exotic" was because foriegn cars were unusual in 1959/60 Britain, UK assembled Citroens and Renaults were known, but Peugeots? Definitely unusual! I suppose a Peugeot 404 would have been seen by most as an Austin Cambridge at the time, but not to a car mad ten year old. The Farina design "fitted" the Peugeot far better than the BMC cars which always, to me, seemed distinctly clumsy.

I definitely confirm that the 404 was introduced in May 1960 and produced until the end of 1974. This model was contemporary to both the 403 and 504, as the production of the 403 ceased in 1966, while the 504 was introduced in 1968.

Being a Frenchman, my own opinion about the 404 and the BMC Farina range is at the exact opposite from the point of view expressed by RCH : the 404 was for me an ordinary and almost ugly car, when the BMCs appear to be really exotic and smart !

And as far as the rallying 404s are concerned, I also confirm that there are some interesting stuff and pics on the French "Forum-auto".

Edited by Team Gunston, 06 September 2009 - 17:55.

[RS2000]

Bert Shankland, 66 Safari winner, was entered in the 66 RAC Rally in a 404 but as far as I know was a non-starter. Free entry to the RAC was probably one of the prizes for wining the Safari, just as free entry to the Safari was one of the prizes for winning the RAC around that time, so it may well have been a paper entry with little serious planning to actually turn up.

Edited by RS2000, 06 September 2009 - 19:37.

[kiwi a110]

The 404 was officialy showed during the 1960 spring. Note that the Paris Motor Show was always during the first days of october!

Sorry GIGLEUX, Paris Motor Show WAS May 1960! No argument!

[Jean L]

Salon de l'Automobile de Paris (Paris motor show):
1-11/10/1959
6-16/10/1960

[geebeenz]

This is all getting very interesting. If the Paris Motor Show was in October then I suggest the 404 was announced earlier. "The Motor" had an article on it in the 18th May 1960 Edition as 1960 Cars.

[Team Gunston]

This is all getting very interesting. If the Paris Motor Show was in October then I suggest the 404 was announced earlier. "The Motor" had an article on it in the 18th May 1960 Edition as 1960 Cars.

Yes, the 404 model was officially launched 5 months before the Paris Motor Show ! I don't see where is the problem there... Jean-Maurice Gigleux is perfectly right and clear. He never mentioned that the 404 was launched at the Paris Motor Show...

[kiwi a110]

This is all getting very interesting. If the Paris Motor Show was in October then I suggest the 404 was announced earlier. "The Motor" had an article on it in the 18th May 1960 Edition as 1960 Cars.

If I knew how to show the link I would put it.. however if you look at you tube "Presentacion 404" it shows original release dated 11 May 1960. Now this claims (in the commentary) to be Paris Motor show" perhaps they did not know where they were at the time??
Ah the wonders of 50 years of hindsight with 20/20 vision!

[Tim Murray]

Is this the clip you mean?



If so, I suggest that, at about 30 seconds in, it changes from the launch in May to the display at the Paris Salon in October. Here's a clip showing President de Gaulle visiting the Paris Salon, dated 6 October 1960:

http://www.ina.fr/ec...-l-auto.fr.html

The 404 on its rotating display stand looks very similar (to me) to that in the first clip.

Edit: Having now watched both these clips again back-to-back, I think I'm wrong in saying that the second part of the first clip is at the Salon - the backgrounds don't match.

Edited by Tim Murray, 07 September 2009 - 10:26.

[kiwi a110]

Is this the clip you mean?



If so, I suggest that, at about 30 seconds in, it changes from the launch in May to the display at the Paris Salon in October. Here's a clip showing President de Gaulle visiting the Paris Salon, dated 6 October 1960:

http://www.ina.fr/ec...-l-auto.fr.html

The 404 on its rotating display stand looks very similar (to me) to that in the first clip.

Can we accept then that 11 May is the official date, and the perhaps there is something other than the Paris Show for the occasion?
As the one who has argued this most vociferously I am prepared to! But of course this does show 11 May 1960, not any date in 1959!
Don't you love the "Danse des Dauphines" and the Panhard display.
To me a long stretch to say that the turntable displayis the exact same one though!

Edited by kiwi a110, 07 September 2009 - 10:25.

[Tim Murray]

To me a long stretch to say that the turntable displayis the exact same one though!

Agreed - see my edit to my earlier post.

[kiwi a110]

Agreed - see my edit to my earlier post.

So the launch discussion is ended, but my initial question has few replies!
Has anyone any more COLOR photos of the EAS cars and details of any prep work done. And yes I have communicated with Sochaux, and they have a big fat nothing to offer. I have press release photos from the era (top copy) in B&W but I would like any other material available.

Edited by kiwi a110, 07 September 2009 - 19:42.

[JB Miltonian]

In my box of old brochures, I found a small folder "Peugeot: Heart of a Lion" which includes one color photo of a 404 on the EAS and a table of results on the EAS from 1963 to 1968.

Also of possible interest to you is a 5-page article from "Sports Car Graphic", October 1962, "Competition Tuning the Peugeot", covering the 403, 404, and FJ engines.

[kiwi a110]

In my box of old brochures, I found a small folder "Peugeot: Heart of a Lion" which includes one color photo of a 404 on the EAS and a table of results on the EAS from 1963 to 1968.

Also of possible interest to you is a 5-page article from "Sports Car Graphic", October 1962, "Competition Tuning the Peugeot", covering the 403, 404, and FJ engines.

This is of great interest. Would you be able to scan these and PM to me?
Thanks

[JB Miltonian]

This is of great interest. Would you be able to scan these and PM to me?
Thanks

Personal message has been sent to you.

[Ducks McTeeth]

Happy 50th birthday, 404!

As the Canadian representative of the Club 404, I have established a 404 registry for the club, visible here:404 Registry - data entry page .

We're doing a lot better in enumerating the remaining 404 Coupé and Cabriolet models than the sedans/saloons, wagons and pick-ups.

We have 1430 of the 17,223 404 C cars (8.3%) accounted for, by VIN/serial number!

We only have 940 of the 2.7 million other 404 models accounted for....

If you love the 404 and want to help, please do!

[Ducks McTeeth]

As for photos of the E.A.S., there are a surprising number available online if you search carefully. If you want an account of the 404 in the 1963, 66, 67 and 68 E.A.S., let me know and I will post it here.

[arttidesco]

Happy 50th 404 , not sure which bit of the 50th we are celebrating in August but never mind really enjoyed this thread.

If I may throw in my ¢2 worth of motor industry observations and I know this has come up on other TNF threads, tooling up for production in car factories in Europe and certainly at VW & Volvo usually happens during the month long summer break in August so that the new models for the following year start flowing off the production lines in the first week of September of the preceding year.

If this was the case with the 404 then the first ones would have been built in September 1959, it may have been the wish of the Peugeot management for the car to be held back until May 1960, but I suspect that Peugeot would have been feeding the supply chain to get the car to foreign markets much earlier than May 1960 and of course once expensive objects leave for foreign shores and money has changed hands between importers and manufactures and then dealers and importers said objects become very much harder to keep track of let alone control over.

I think it is quite possible Rod had a ride in a 404 in March 1960 if a less than scrupulous dealer had been unwilling to keep his compound full of expensive stock for a couple of months simply to keep the top brass in Paris happy alternatively the 404 might have been on loan to Rod's fathers friend for a pre launch test drive, most likely Rod's memory at the age of ten is less than accurate but I wouldn't be too sure.

Also I do not believe 404 production stopped in 1974 I remember being in Nairobi, Kenya in early September 1977 and looking in through the windows of the (Marshalls ?) Peugeot dealer and seeing brand new unplated 404 and 504 models in the showroom.

Funny about the 404 being exotic to the Brits and Cambridge being exotic to the French, I always thought of the 404 as the more exotic until I went through Belgium & France where 404's were a dime a dozen in horribly pastel shades.

The Cambridge and its many variants did indeed look more chunky possibly thanks to smaller wheels and curved waist line ?

Here are a couple of pix I found of the 404 on the EA Safari in Google images there are dozens more :-)

[RS2000]

Has anyone any more COLOR photos of the EAS cars and details of any prep work done.

As far as preparation work done, the answer is probably very little. The EAS ran to Group One regulations for most of the 404's life and I can't recall hearing of any extreme performance "options" such as the induction homologation "fiddles" that were rife in the 70s on UK makes/models. Presumably an lsd was homologated in Gp1 for the 404 (and probably under a more convincing situation than with the Lotus Cortina etc.....)

[Ducks McTeeth]

The rally cars didn't even have LSD. The worm drive unit with open diff was all they had.

[D-Type]

The 404 made its Safari debut in 1961 when Nick Nowicki and Ivan Philip finished 4th and won their class.

The only homologated change in period that I remember was the introduction of fuel injection for the 1965 Safari. I don't think a LSD was ever fitted. As the Safari was strictly Group 1 up to 1966, there were very few modifications that could be made legally. In 1970 when separate classes for Groups 1 & 2 were introduced, the 504 had arrived although a few privateers still ran 404s.

When thinking of similar Farina-styled cars don't forget the Fiat 1800/2100/2300 which was virtually identical.

Edited by D-Type, 19 August 2010 - 14:34.

[BRG]

When thinking of similar Farina-styled cars don't forget the Fiat 1800/2100/2300 which was virtually identical.

How did Farina get away with selling basically the same three box with sub-Detroit tailfins design to three different manufacturers!

I was always struck by how similar the BMC and Peugeot shapes were but the 404 always seemed to have a better balance of proportions to my eye.

As I recall, Safari cars often had some sort of scraper arrangements around the wheels/brakes to prevent a build-up of mud whcih would then bake solid - at which point the steering and suspension would cease to work. And they also needed some pretty good underbody protection to the sump, diff, exhaust and tank as Safari roads could be savagely rough.

[arttidesco]

Re the prep work I am wondering when was the last time the EA Safari was won by a car with it's hubcaps still fitted ?

I get the feeling up to 1970 most EAS cars were lifted out of the local showrooms, fitted with lights, a couple of stop watches a couple of hand grips on the boot, maybe some HGV mud flaps and stickers and off they went almost all the cars up to 1970 seem to carry Kenyan, Tanzanian or Ugandan licence plates.

Duncan great call on the truely exotic 6 cylinder Fiat 1800 is that the one that came with the Fiat G91 Fighter escort option for diplomatic customers ?

Edited by arttidesco, 19 August 2010 - 15:39.

[D-Type]

How did Farina get away with selling basically the same three box with sub-Detroit tailfins design to three different manufacturers!

I was always struck by how similar the BMC and Peugeot shapes were but the 404 always seemed to have a better balance of proportions to my eye.

I read somewhere that Fiat said "We want a car just like the 404" or Peugeot said "We want a car just like the Fiat" and Farina complied.

Can anybody remember which BMC car was the Farina design and which were "badge-engineered" by BMC?

As I recall, Safari cars often had some sort of scraper arrangements around the wheels/brakes to prevent a build-up of mud whcih would then bake solid - at which point the steering and suspension would cease to work. And they also needed some pretty good underbody protection to the sump, diff, exhaust and tank as Safari roads could be savagely rough.

I don't recall any such scraper arrangement. In fact I vaguely remember a story that the BMC 1100s in 1963 suffered from the rear wheels being gummed up by mud - but it might have been merely a bar room tale. At least one VW suffered overheating when the louvres became blocked with baked mud. What they did have was a regulation requiring "mud" flaps or more accurately "stone" flaps slightly wider than the wheels extending down to 1 inch from the ground behind the driven wheels to protect following cars from collecting a stone through the screen.

Any form of sump guard or other form of underbody protection was forbidden unless it came as standard. The whole idea was that cars should be "the same as you can buy" which was reflected in the classes being based on retail price until 1959. So strict was the interpretation of "bog standard" that one car was disqualified when the owner fitted a length of tube and a soft drink can to catch water blown out of the cooling system and allow it to siphon back in.

Edited by D-Type, 19 August 2010 - 15:25.

[BRG]

Ah, well, it may be that scrapers and underbody protection were 1970s things rather than 1960s! The years seem to be running together more these days...

[D-Type]

Ah, well, it may be that scrapers and underbody protection were 1970s things rather than 1960s! The years seem to be running together more these days...

Group 2 cars were allowed from 1967 so maybe they came in then. The original philosophy was certainly "the same as you can buy" but this gradually changed as the event went more international and professional.

[BRG]

Can anybody remember which BMC car was the Farina design and which were "badge-engineered" by BMC?

As a penance, I looked this up - it is from Wiki, so believe it or don't!
In 1958, BMC hired Battista Farina to redesign its entire car line. This resulted in the creation of three "Farina" saloons, each of which was badge-engineered to fit the various BMC car lines:

The mid-sized Farinas were launched in 1958 with the Wolseley 15/60. Other members of the group included the Riley 4/68, Austin A55 Cambridge Mk. II, MG Magnette Mk. III, and Morris Oxford V. Later, the design was licensed in Argentina and produced as the Di Tella 1500/Traveller/Argenta. The mid-size cars used the B-Series straight-4 engine.

Most of these cars lasted until 1961, though the Di Tellas remained until 1965. They were replaced with a new Farina body style and most were renamed. These were the Austin A60 Cambridge, MG Magnette Mk. IV, Morris Oxford VI, Riley 4/72, and Wolseley 16/60. These mostly remained in production until 1968, with no rear wheel drive replacement produced.

So apparently the first was a Wolseley but it sounds as if Farina had a deal to do the lot.

[RCH]

Happy 50th 404 , not sure which bit of the 50th we are celebrating in August but never mind really enjoyed this thread.

If I may throw in my ¢2 worth of motor industry observations and I know this has come up on other TNF threads, tooling up for production in car factories in Europe and certainly at VW & Volvo usually happens during the month long summer break in August so that the new models for the following year start flowing off the production lines in the first week of September of the preceding year.

If this was the case with the 404 then the first ones would have been built in September 1959, it may have been the wish of the Peugeot management for the car to be held back until May 1960, but I suspect that Peugeot would have been feeding the supply chain to get the car to foreign markets much earlier than May 1960 and of course once expensive objects leave for foreign shores and money has changed hands between importers and manufactures and then dealers and importers said objects become very much harder to keep track of let alone control over.

I think it is quite possible Rod had a ride in a 404 in March 1960 if a less than scrupulous dealer had been unwilling to keep his compound full of expensive stock for a couple of months simply to keep the top brass in Paris happy alternatively the 404 might have been on loan to Rod's fathers friend for a pre launch test drive, most likely Rod's memory at the age of ten is less than accurate but I wouldn't be too sure.

Also I do not believe 404 production stopped in 1974 I remember being in Nairobi, Kenya in early September 1977 and looking in through the windows of the (Marshalls ?) Peugeot dealer and seeing brand new unplated 404 and 504 models in the showroom.

Funny about the 404 being exotic to the Brits and Cambridge being exotic to the French, I always thought of the 404 as the more exotic until I went through Belgium & France where 404's were a dime a dozen in horribly pastel shades.

The Cambridge and its many variants did indeed look more chunky possibly thanks to smaller wheels and curved waist line ?

Here are a couple of pix I found of the 404 on the EA Safari in Google images there are dozens more :-)

As I recall I was aware of the 404 being launched and my father's friend getting a very early one, but I suspect I would have remembered if this was actually a pre-release car. I know he did not have the Simca for long so I may well be remembering a ride in that.

I think the Austin Cambridge was the first BMC Farina release but the Morris Oxford followed very shortly afterward.

[RCH]

Just read BRG's post, I still think the Cambridge came first, maybe summer 1958 with the Morris and Wolseley at the motor show? Not sure about a new body style, surely it was just a rounding off of corners?

[arttidesco]

Just read BRG's post, I still think the Cambridge came first, maybe summer 1958 with the Morris and Wolseley at the motor show? Not sure about a new body style, surely it was just a rounding off of corners?

So fas as I know and we are talking the year of my birth and I am no expert both the Austin A55 Cambridge MKII and the Morris Oxford V were made available in 1959 presumably the production lines got fired up in Autumn 1958 ?

[Ducks McTeeth]

I seriously doubt that the 404 was driven by anyone but a Peugeot employee prior to May 1960. That is when the first registrations began, and the car was not presented at the 1959 Paris Salon d'Auto, it was May 1960.

Being a huge 404 fan, the owner of a 1966 404 Coupé KF2 Injection and the Canadian representative of Le Club 404, I have developed a form for an online 404 registry here.

To date we have entered the following totals (cars are identified by serial number):

404 Coupé and Cabriolet: 1430 units of the 17,223 made (8.3%)

All other 404 models: 942 units of the 2.75 million (0.0034%)

Obviously we have a way to go in the regular 404s. I think we may now just have about half of the remaining 404 C models in the registry. Being limited production cars, they would have been more cherished than the normal workhorse 404s. If you have a 404 or know anyone who does, please encourage them to help with this project.

Here is a link to the article on the 404 in the East African Safari that I wrote back in 1993: East African Safari article.

[BRG]

It was from Wiki, so....

But it looks like Farina did a job-lot for BMC so which marque they actually announced first isn't really significant.

I agree that calling the face-lift a 'new body style' is a bit strong.

[D-Type]

It was from Wiki, so....

But it looks like Farina did a job-lot for BMC so which marque they actually announced first isn't really significant.

I agree that calling the face-lift a 'new body style' is a bit strong.

The three Farina designs were the Austin A40, the mid-sized B-Series cars and the large C-Series cars. As the A40 was an Austin and never badge-engineered into anything else, I suspect that the other two Farina designs were the Austin Cambridge and Austin Westminster and that these were the basis of BMC's badge-engineering.

But under East African conditions the 404 had a reputation for being more robust than its Fiat and BMC cousins. Much of the reputation could be attributed to the Safari performance, which in turn could possibly be be attributed to Marshalls' preparation and their policy of treating the Safari seriously..

[Ray Bell]

In turn what?

In turn directly related to the unbreakable suspension that left the BMC cars' Armstrongs destroyed at the first creek crossing!

One day I'll tell you some of my experiences with those Armstrongs...

[D-Type]

In turn what?
In turn directly related to the unbreakable suspension that left the BMC cars' Armstrongs destroyed at the first creek crossing!

One day I'll tell you some of my experiences with those Armstrongs...

I turn possibly ....

You've confirmed the 404's design was better and it wasn't just having a good importer.

[RCH]

So fas as I know and we are talking the year of my birth and I am no expert both the Austin A55 Cambridge MKII and the Morris Oxford V were made available in 1959 presumably the production lines got fired up in Autumn 1958 ?

Sorry slip of the keyboard...

[404KF2]

As the Canadian representative of the Club 404, I have established a 404 registry for the club, visible here:404 Registry - data entry page

I have changed my forum name back to what it was here in 1999: 404KF2. Anyway, here is an update of the 404 Registry project:

We now have 1472 404 Coupés and Cabriolets accounted for, of the 17,223 that were made.

The regular 404 list is growing reasonably well too, with 1021 cars on it.

In my next post, I will add the 1993 summary I wrote about the 404 in the East African Safari.

Edited by 404KF2, 05 December 2010 - 05:47.

[404KF2]

THE 404 IN THE EAST AFRICAN SAFARI © 1993 by Mike Tippett

L'Aventure Peugeot, in a list of 404 victories provided on request, identifies an impressive list of Peugeot 404 performances in east Africa: First place overall in 1961 (definitely incorrect, a 220 SE won in 1961), First in Class in 1962, and Second place overall, First place overall in 1963, First in Class in 1964, First place team in 1965, and Second place overall, culminating in the hat-trick in 1966, 67 and 68.

This rally was created in 1953 as the Coronation Safari to commemorate the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II. Typically, the rally started at Nairobi, Kenya, and was composed of two distinct legs: one towards Uganda, the other towards Tanganyika (later Tanzania). The event usually covered about 3000 miles, mostly on unsurfaced roads or tracks, and took about 5 days to complete.

This rally had been won by a number of different vehicles:

1953 - Volkswagen Beetle
1954 - Volkswagen Beetle
1955 - Ford Zephyr
1956 - DKW 1000
1957 - Volkswagen Beetle
1958 - no overall winner
1959 - Mercedes-Benz 219
1960 - Mercedes-Benz 219
1961 - Mercedes-Benz 220 SE
1962 - Volkswagen Beetle

Up to 1962, the event had clearly been dominated by German vehicles, and up to 1956, no overseas driver had tested him or herself on this event. In 1956, the recent Tulip Rally winner, Maurice Gastonides, entered, without notable success. News of the Safari spread, and in 1957 many more foreigners entered. The event first attracted the interest of a factory team in 1959, when Ford UK entered a number of Zephyrs and Rootes used three Hillman Minxes.

The foreign drivers had a relative lack of success compared to the local drivers, for many of whom the tough conditions were no more than routine inconveniences encountered throughout the year.

For 1963, the English Royal Automobile Club set up a World Championship Rally trophy for manufacturers, to be awarded to the marque scoring the most points in 4 of 5 of the following events: the East African Safari (so renamed after Kenyan independence, for obvious political reasons), the Shell 4000 (Trans-Canada Rally), the Marathon de la Route (Liege-Sofia-Liege), the Rally of the Midnight Sun, and the RAC rally in the UK. Various manufacturers took up the challenge in 1963, with 8 teams represented. Peugeot vehicles were not officially factory prepared, either being done by Marshalls (Peugeot importer in Kenya), Tanganyika Motors in that country, or by privateers.

Unbiased accounts of these events are available in the local press of the period, a particularly good source being The Reporter, a Kenyan news magazine. What follows is a detailed summary of the 1963 and 66, 67 and 68 events, based on contemporary Reporter articles.



EAST AFRICAN SAFARI 1963

A total of 84 cars were entered in 1963, including:

18 - Ford
11 - Peugeot 404
4 - Peugeot 403
9 - Fiat
7 – Volkswagen
7 - Morris
5 - Saab
5 - Simca 1000
4 - Nissan
4 – Mercedes-Benz
4 - Rover

The route was composed of a 3189 mile route through Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika. The first casualties shortly after the start were a VW and a 403, which rolled less than 100 miles out of Nairobi due to intense thundershowers. Shortly thereafter, a further 6 cars retired or were excluded due to lateness. By the 1/4 point at Kampala, Swedish Monte Carlo Rally winner Erik Carlsson in a SAAB 92 was in the lead. The mud on the sections out of Kampala was severe, and Carlsson was lucky to get through before a knot of cars became embedded, tying up all other competitors for many minutes. Back in Nairobi, at the halfway point, Carlsson was still in the lead, with a Ford Cortina in second, and three other Fords rounding out the top five. At Nairobi, all 43 remaining competitors were compelled to have a 12 hour rest. It was then predicted that the second half would prove to be the most difficult.

Erik Carlsson had a collision with a giant anteater near the 3/4 point, which damaged his Saab's front suspension, and pushed the engine back 1.5 inches. He continued on for some minutes, until his front suspension completely folded up on him. Other competitors' hopes were destroyed by the incredible mud, with the most common reason for retirement being exclusion for lateness (time-barring). The second place Ford holed a sump and retired with engine failure. A 404 sedan then took over the lead.

Due to the extreme conditions, a further rest stop was organised near Dar es Salaam. On the return leg to Nairobi, a few more retirements were recorded, but the Kenyan crew of Nick Nowicki-Paddy Cliff held their lead. Only 7 cars were still running at the finish:

1 - Peugeot 404 (Nowicki-Cliff)
2 - Ford Anglia (Hughes-Young)
3 - Mercedes-Benz 220 SEb (Cardwell-Lead)
4 - Fiat 2300 (Joginder and Jaswant Singh)
5 - Peugeot 404 (Lionnet-Philip)
6 - Peugeot 403 (1300) (Jaffray-Bathurst)
7 - Rover P5 (Bengry-Goby)

The most impressive finishing percentage belonged to Rover and Mercedes-Benz, with a 25% standard. The Peugeots had a 20% finishing rate, and the others declined from there. Ford was particularly hard hit, with only the little Anglia showing the flag at the end.


EAST AFRICAN SAFARI 1964 and 1965

For the sake of brevity, and because I assume that we are all Peugeot fans, the less successful Safaris (Peugeot - wise) of 1964 and 1965 are summarized briefly below.

The international stature of the Safari continued to grow. In 1964, a major assault on this event was made by Ford UK. In the end, a Cortina GT won. Erik Carlsson was second in his Saab Monte Carlo. One 404 managed a win in Class D.
1965 was another reasonable year for international entries, with Ford and Citroen (with nine DS19 models) leading the manufacturers. However, the local Kenyan heroes, Joginder and Jaswant Singh (the latter now lives in the Vancouver area) were victorious in their Volvo 544. A 404 Injection finished second to the Singh car, and one of the African Peugeot teams captured the team trophy.


EAST AFRICAN SAFARI 1966

1966 saw a reduced involvement of directly sponsored factory teams. Peugeot was well represented among entrants:

13 - Peugeot 404 Injection
9 - Peugeot 404
6 - Peugeot 204
22 - Fords, including 1 Lotus Cortina
9 - Saab 96 / Monte Carlo
5 - Volkswagen
4 – Mercedes-Benz
4 – Datsun
4 - Triumph 2000
3 - Volvo
3 - Citroen OS 19
3 - Morris Mini Cooper S
1 - Alfa Romeo Guilia Sport
1 - Toyota Corona

In all, 88 starters were registered.

The leaders from the beginning of the rally were Bert Shankland and Chris Rothwell of Tanzania, driving a 404 Injection. Among the first to fall were three of the Triumph 2000s at Dar es Salaam, due to flooding in the mountainous terrain. The last of the Triumphs was time barred at Nairobi at the halfway point. The Mercedes-Benz 230 of Edgar Herrmann-Gerd Elvers retired with oil pump trouble during the first half. Difficult conditions in the first leg also removed the Datsun of Mr and Mrs Cardwell, a Ford Cortina GT, a 404 Injection and the Jeeves-Collinge Citroen DS 19, which was running in second place at the time.

Deep water in part of the southern leg (first halt) was a major problem in particular for most of the Peugeot 404's, as sandy water was able to get into unsealed engines through the dipstick hole (located very low, directly on the block in 1960-1966 404's). The introduction of water and grit into the oil system took most of them out shortly after the deep fording episodes.

The 404 Injection of Lionnet-Hechle was forced to deviate off-course by other cars which were baulking them at a mud hole. In so doing, their gearbox struck a rock and its casing was cracked. The damaged 'box seized several miles later.

The Goode- Vincent Mercedes-Benz 200 went out about 1/4 of the way through with engine bearing trouble. Interestingly, the 200 series, like the 404, has a dipstick hole which is particularly low on the block, and some 6 inches lower than the 219 model. At some points along the southern leg, the three-pointed star on the grille became fully submerged (which shows what kind of severe conditions competitors were facing). The engine oil was then changed, but on the bumpy roads on the way back to Nairobi, the remaining sand in the. sump was stirred up, got into the rest of the engine and caused bearing seizure!

The second half of the rally was less eventful, most of the retirements having occurred in the southern leg. Throughout it all, the 404 Injection of Shankland-Rothwell led, which was at least in part due to their very careful waterproofing effort prior to the start of the rally.

The final results were:

1 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Shankland-Rothwell)
2 - Ford Cortina GT (Preston-Gerrish)
3 - Volvo P132 Amazon (Singh-Bhardwaj)
4 - Ford Lotus Cortina (Hughes-Snyder)
5 - Datsun P411 (Greenly-Dunk)
6 - Volkswagen Beetle 1300 (Aird-Hillyar)
7 - Volkswagen Beetle 1300 (Barbour-Doughty)
8 - Ford Cortina GT (Smith-McConnell)
9 - Mercedes-Benz 220 SE (Saunders-Wilson)

Bert Shankland, after this victory, said "I've participated in 8 Safari Rallies, but I've never had to run in such difficult conditions. We drove in mud for hundreds of miles at a time. In some places, our car was swimming in over 3 feet of water.”

Peugeot, despite winning, suffered from a dreadful finishing percentage in 1966. Perhaps the lesson was learned, because 1967 saw the introduction of the long-necked dipstick tube on production 404's!


EAST AFRICAN SAFARI 1967

The 1967 version of the Easter classic had another full roster of entries:

21 - Ford (including 3 Lotus Cortinas)
12 - Peugeot 404 Injection
2 - Peugeot 404
6 - Peugeot 204
12 - Volkswagen
6 - Datsun
5 - Alfa Romeo
5 - Saab
5 - Volvo
3 - Toyota
2 – Triumph
2 – Renault
2 - Citroen
2 – Mercedes-Benz
1 - Mini Cooper S
1 - Lancia
1 -BMW
1 - Isuzu

In all there were 93 starters. Unlike the previous Safari, which had been plagued with incredible amounts of rainfall, this Safari had totally dry conditions. Rather than the well known water hazards, such as mud pits, the problem was therefore the choking dust. The consistency of the dust encountered ranged from the texture of fine talcum powder to coarse pumice, orange or grey, respectively. In these conditions, only the first starter would be free of fugitive dust kicked up by other competitors. It was the Ford Cortina GT of Soderstrom-Palm which had the number one spot.

Soderstrom, a well-known international rallyman, took full advantage of his position during the first stages of the rally, being able to see all of the road hazards with the benefit of clear air. The state of the roads was best described by a quotation from the Reporter article:

"Each bump, which had made its blushing debut months ago as a sweetly rounded contour of yielding mud, had long since been baked and hammered into a flinty harridan of terracotta ... even the smallest car, on descending from one such horror to another at rally speed, administers a shock through its suspension which would shame a steam hammer. Keep that up long enough and any machine will break."

The third factor after the dust and bumps, was the loose nature of the road surfaces, which varied from the relatively adhesive to the very Slippery. Soderstrom and Palm led the rally through the first three days on the entire southern leg of well over 1500 miles. Local Safari watchers were impressed by the dynamic Swedish duo, but wondered if they were exacting too heavy a toll on their Cortina GTs suspension by keeping close to the ideal stage times.

Among the first to drop out was the 1962 winner in a VW 1500. Following a long dusty convoy, Tommy Fjastad tried to pass at an unfortunate location, missing a corner and tumbling down one of the Teita hills. He and his navigator were lucky to escape their car shortly before the fuel tank caught fire after their car' came to rest on an embankment. Next to fall was the Datsun of Herrmann-Elvers, which died of clutch slip and suspension failure about 1/3 of the way through the rally. The lone Mini Cooper expired around the same time, of head gasket failure.

The only American car in the event, a powerful Mercury Comet V8, which The Reporter says "carried a greater weight of petrol than the overall weight of some complete cars (!)", was dispatched by a blow to the left front suspension dished out by a deep pothole. The Lancia Flavia did not make it past the third control point, and one of the Saab 96's and a 404 Injection retired shortly thereafter, the 404 doing a short off-road tumbling routine in the process. A Citroen retired at the 1/3 point, of terminal suspension failure. An Alfa quit due to connecting rod trouble, and one of the ubiquitous Cortinas also expired before reaching Dar es Salaam. Heading back from Dar to Nairobi, a further 14 cars retired early on in the Usambara mountains. A further hazard in these mountains was the vandalism, specifically, the stones thrown by the locals at the passing vehicles. Several injuries caused by flying glass were reported. Some cars had to replace as many as three windscreens in this area alone.

Meanwhile, Soderstrom and Palm continued in the lead, but several local competitors were within striking distance, notably a 404 Injection crewed by Bert Shankland and Chris Rothwell of Tanzania, which was only 8 minutes down at the halfway point.

The dismal record of foreign drivers in this event was confirmed about 100 miles north of Nairobi, on the northern leg of the rally. The Tripmaster odometer of the leading Cortina must not have been calibrated correctly, or the navigator made an error, as Soderstrom plunged headlong into a road works area which was well marked in the road book. The Cortina's suspension was gravely damaged, and the car was unable to continue much further. Shankland and Rothwell, running a very consistent rally, then inherited first place. Two Cortinas (one a Lotus) behind the 404 Injection bravely scrapped for first place, but it was the slower but stronger 404 which won the battle.

The top ten of the 49 finishers were:

1 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Shankland-Rothwell)
2 - Ford Lotus Cortina (Preston-Gerrish)
3 - Ford Cortina GT (Hughes-Snyder)
4 - Volvo 122 S (Joginder Singh and H. Sembi)
5 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Nowicki-Armstrong)
6 - Ford Cortina GT (Simonian-Huth)
7 - Ford Cortina GT (Bianchi-Greder)
8 - Peugeot 204 (Lionnet-Cliff)
9 - Peugeot 204 (Jaffray-Hechle)
10 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Din-Din)

In all, 11 of the 12 404 Injections which were entered finished, 1 of the 2 non-injected 404s, and all 6 204s made it home. In comparison, only 9 of the 21 Fords entered were able to finish.


EAST AFRICAN SAFARl 1968

The 1968 East African Safari was a total length of almost 3100 miles, to be traversed over a total of 5 days (including the nearly 24 hour stop midway in Nairobi). Unlike the previous two Safaris, this year's route headed northwest to Uganda first, returning to Nairobi; from there, the usual southern leg to Dar es Salaam was followed by the return dash to the Kenyan capital. 94 cars were registered:

19 - Ford (including 5 Lotus Cortinas)
9 - Peugeot 204
6 - Peugeot 404 Injection
2 - Peugeot 404
10 - Volkswagen
8 - Datsun (including one 510 1600 SSS, the eventual winner two years later)
5 - Vauxhall
4 - Renault
4 - Saab
3 - Fiat
3 - Alfa Romeo
3 - B.M.C. 1800
2 - Triumph 2000
2 - Toyota
2 - Mercedes-Benz
1 - Volvo
1 - Daihatsu

Predictions of wet weather preceded the event, and these were accurate. First away from the starting line was the Triumph 2000 of Brown-Hegarty, as the rain clouds amassed but did not (yet) open. Shortly after the start, the Finn Timo Makinen (who later had successes with Peugeot in the 504 V6) and his B.M.C. 1800 retired, due to a massive leak in the oil filter. Shankland and Rothwell (404 Injection) were soon thereafter reported to be digging themselves out of a watery ditch. Preston-Gerrish in a Lotus Cortina were running in first after a few hundred miles, with Joginder Singh in a Datsun close behind. Soderstrom and Palm were next in their Ford Lotus Cortina.

Vandalism again was evident, as Pat Moss and Liz Nystrom in a Renault 16 hit a man-made barrier of stones which was laid across the road. Although their car was damaged beyond repair, these sporting women proceeded to clear the debris and stones for other competitors, having already deployed a warning triangle some 100 metres up the road.

About halfway through the northern leg, the rain began to fall. The running order remained the same as before, although the time between the cars was growing. A few hundred miles from the return to Nairobi, reports of difficult going for the front-running Fords and Datsun came in. The Peugeots then began to make up for lost time in the muddy conditions. The 404's were generally much less in need of repair work at the checkpoints, perhaps indicating a "slow but safe" strategy.

A nasty surprise awaited Vie Preston at the midway point in Nairobi, when it was revealed that the Lotus Cortina crew had failed to have its card marked with one of the required control stamps. As a result, the team was disqualified, notwithstanding the formal protest lodged by Ford. The Lionnet-Bates Peugeot 204 was then excluded for working on the car at Nairobi control. Their car had a loose rear mudflap, and the, crew asked if they could reattach it. An official indicated that it would be OK, so they did it. Another official then disqualified them!

Attrition during the return from Uganda to Nairobi was very high - only 21 cars. were able to start the southern leg towards Tanzania. Many of the cars were disqualified due to time violations at Nairobi control. Soderstrom and Palm in a Lotus Cortina retired after being stuck in a mud pit for 8 hours not far south of Nairobi. The same hazard awaited Joginder Singh in his Datsun, but he and B. Smith were able to extricate their car in a mere 75 minutes.

Entering the Kiroka Pass section in Tanzania, torrential rains began. The Ford Lotus Cortina of Huth and Grant led, but was closely followed by two injected 404s. As the Lotus had required a new clutch, the resultant 30 penalty points left very little time between the top three cars. Huth and Grant then were delayed for 65 minutes at a flash flood - up until then they had over an hour on the 2 Peugeots. When the Nowicki-Cliff car reached the same ravine, the waters had receded, so they were not delayed. They took over first place, and the Shankland-Rothwell 404 was in second position.

In fact, Shankland had been making up time on the first place 404 Injection, until on a tarmac section the engine was either overrevved or suffering from their previous off-road excursion, and it threw a connecting rod through the side of the block. At the time, this car was reeling Nowicki in at a high rate of speed on a smooth tarmac section of road. Crude attempts made to patch the hole to prevent oil from escaping, to enable them to limp home to Nairobi were unsuccessful, and the car had to retire around 150 miles from the finish. In all, two-thirds of the cars which began the southern leg were abandoned due either to time violations or mechanical failures. The 7 finishers were:

1 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Nowicki-Cliff)
2 - Ford Lotus Cortina (Huth-Grant)
3 - Triumph 2000 ( Mandeville-A1lison)
4 - Peugeot 404 Injection (Armstrong-Pavely)
5 - Datsun H130 (Joginder Singh-Smith)
6 - Ford Cortina GT (Ulyate- Wood)
7 - Nissan H130 (Lucille Cardwell-Geraldine Davies)

The Reporter summed up the condition of the top 2 cars in this way:

"On the ramp at Nairobi the Huth Ford was a mess. Its door pillars were cracked. Its windscreen was held in place with rope. It had no clutch, and it failed the brake test. In contrast, the Nowicki Peugeot looked all ready to go around again."


SUMMARY

The impressive results which Peugeot achieved in the Safari in the 1960s were a testament to the high quality and durability of the basic product. It should be remembered that in the 1960s, rally cars were very nearly showroom stock, workaday vehicles. The 404 Injection models made do with between 90 and 100 DIN HP.

Ford, with the Lotus Cortina, had introduced a new breed of purpose-built rally car to Africa, with a fair measure of success. In the early 1970s, heavily modified low-production models such as the Ford Escort RS 2000, Lancia Stratos, Fiat 124 Spider Abarth and Alpine Renault A110 became the norm in international rallying. This led to even more radical machinery in the 1980s.

At the end of 1968, the 404 was more or less superseded by the 504 as the Peugeot of choice in African rallying. But the specialized nature of the sport required ever more powerful engines - the first 504 1800cc Injection rally cars had 110 HP (versus 93 DIN stock); by 1975, when Peugeot next won the Safari, the 2 litre 504 Injection Rally version had no less than 165 DIN (106 HP stock). The low-volume 504 Coupe V6 which won the 1978 Safari was pumping 225 HP out of its 2664 cc, and it looked more like a monster truck than a Pininfarina Coupe on its jacked-up suspension (à la MGB)!

The 1967 Safari winning 404 Injection Number 5 of Shankland-Rothwell in full rally trim is preserved at the Peugeot Museum in Sochaux. If you ever find yourself there, spend a few moments taking in a very proud era in Peugeot's history.



NOTE: I wrote this account of the 404's exploits in the East African Safari back in 1993 for the now-defunct Peugeot Owners' Club in the USA. I would have preferred to have a primary source - I did write to Bert Shankland in Scotland but I didn't get a reply. I spoke with Jaswant Singh about it on two occasions but in the end I found a very good secondary source in the bowels of the library at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia. This was the Kenyan news magazine "The Reporter", which had excellent pre- and post-rally articles. So I photocopied these in 1989 when I found them and eventually wrote an account of the 404's exploits based upon this source.

If anyone would like to reproduce this article for any non-commercial purpose (for example, a car club newsletter), that would be great with me, please just mention the origin of the information.

[Allan Lupton]

Bert Shankland, 66 Safari winner, was entered in the 66 RAC Rally in a 404 but as far as I know was a non-starter. Free entry to the RAC was probably one of the prizes for wining the Safari, just as free entry to the Safari was one of the prizes for winning the RAC around that time, so it may well have been a paper entry with little serious planning to actually turn up.

I seem to remember "the ex-Bert Shankland" 404 in the ownership of the proprietor of Roundbush Motors of Aldenham, near Watford in early 1967. A good friend of mine had a 404 he was preparing for a trip to Tamanrasset which he made in July 1967 and Roundbush and he based some of the work (e.g. sump guard) on the Shankland car.
Don't know what happened to the Shankland car but Hugh kept his 404 for several decades until it was too much used up to be even the third car of the family (but both sons learned to drive in it, a right-hand-drive by then resident in France!).