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F1 driver win totals that include non-championship GPs


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#1 Joe Fan

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 06:16

Just curious if anyone has knowledge of where I can find a list of wins for F1 drivers that also included non-championship GPs. This would be real interesting to review if someone has taken the time to compile such a list.

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#2 Racer.Demon

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 08:20

I have, and you will find it here:

http://www.racer.dem...hgear/wins.html

This list is compiled on the basis of this page:

http://www.racer.dem...ear/gp-yby.html

But beware, Felix and I just wanted to create this list in order to give some perspective to the "real" achievements of the likes of Moss, Fangio and Wimille. It does in no way reflect our opinion on whether the included non-championship wins are indeed "serious" wins against "serious" opposition. And I'm sure the all-time Grand Prix winners list is missing a few "F1" races here and there - for instance, the pre-Aurora Shellsport events and very probably several Temporada races as well.

You will always have contention on which non-championship races should qualify as an "F1 Grand Prix". Events like Syracuse, Solitude, the Race of Champions or the International Trophy are in without a shadow of doubt, but what about some of the very minor F1 events, the Questor GP or the Madrid GP? In his book A-Z Racing Cars 1945-1990 David Hodges digresses on the matter and gives clear insight into the trouble you are (and we were) getting ourselves into when compiling such a list.

Should we keep to the simple rule that any race eligible for contemporary F1 machinery qualifies as an F1 race, regardless of the quality of drivers - and thus include Libre and Aurora events? Or should we include any event called a Grand Prix - which in light of the many sportscar and F2 "Grands Prix" sounds silly, but there you have it. In other words, it's a case of definition (again).

You decide...


#3 Joe Fan

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 08:44

Racer.Demon, great job! I always wanted to see those totals.

As far as whether non-championship Grand Prix should be included into win totals, I am not sure. I think Don Capps has said that he feels that they should be taken more seriously by motorsports historians than they are today (where very little is know about them and you cannot find much info on them).

Like I said, I am not sure. Maybe the best people to ask would be former drivers. I would think that mosts driver would give their best effort at any race regardless. Quite a few drivers in the 50's and early 60's (ie Masten Gregory), raced as a hobby simply because they loved it. So, I doubtif there wre any differences in payouts, that this would make much of a difference to them back then.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 10:58

The problem with parity, or is it equilibrium, is that a lot of races were difficult for some to reach. This might have been for a number of reasons, but look for instance at races held a week before a WC race at the opposite end of Europe, or at a location that could not afford a full field.
In those days of starting money, this would have been all-important, and starters would have been dictated by determining who would attract a local crowd.
The 1961-62 period would have had special difficulties, too, with the English conviction that the formula shouldn't have been changed, so there was so much going on that they wouldn't be able to attend so many races (even if it appears from RVM that they didn't do so bad... was it so universal?).
Some teams, too, would send second string drivers (particularly Ferrari) or cars (Lotus) to such events, so performances might not be so representative.
But an interesting exercise.

#5 Racer.Demon

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 11:32

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Should we keep to the simple rule that any race eligible for contemporary F1 machinery qualifies as an F1 race, regardless of the quality of drivers - and thus include Libre and Aurora events?
[/B]


Which also opens the question whether to include the South African F1 championship...

In that case Dave Charlton is right up there with Alain Prost!


#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 12:31

On that basis, by the way, Tasman Cup and Australian (and New Zealand) Gold Star events would count too... at least until the end of 1965. It was F.Libre to the end of 63, then 2.5 litres to 1969.

#7 Don Capps

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 12:59

Perhaps I take them more seriously than most simply because the first race I saw run to the Grand Prix formula/ Formula 1, was the race at Torino in March 1955. It sure looked, acted, and felt like a "Grand Prix" race to me! Indeed, when I later saw my first "official Grand Prix" races at Spa and Zandvoort that year, except for counting towards the often mythical World Championship and having the Mercedes team they were pretty much the same. Well, at least to me they were.

The many "F1" races run in the UK during the 50's which were basically club races with often older GP machinery on the grid, were still "F1" events, albeit not "WDC" events.

The vast majority of folks today are influenced by the fact that since the early 80's ALL "F1" events have been rounds in the WDC. Probably 95+% of the sites out there covering "F1" basically or completely ignore the non-World Championship events. This is very short-sighted. Look at the world of the 20's, 30's and 40's and you see where there was a quite interesting variety of events, machines, and venues for GP, Voiturette, and other monoposto racing series.

As a historian, the small things are as important as the big things when it comes to getting the flavor of an era. That is why I included the South African F1 races in my RVM series on 1961. They belong. Indeed, had I done the 1961 RVM series the way 99% would have, it would have been only eight races and perhaps an introduction. But, that would have completely missed the whole point!!!

While I am perhaps in a minority for the most part, I don't get quite so bent as many do about certain forms of racing. I followed the NZ/ Australian events to the best of my ability before the Tasman Cup series was run in 1964; the South African races are fascinating; the Temporada races again are events I want to know about and so on. Indeed, try to find a scholarly & coherent history of the AAA/USAC National Championship series.

Well, I've said my piece.[p][Edited by Don Capps on 10-27-2000]

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 13:14

To my knowledge (which is scant on this period), there was only ever one meeting in Australia prior to 1985 at which races were scheduled for Formula One and Formula Two.
A decision had been made that we would adopt the International Formulae, and for this reason the supercharger was removed from the famous Stan Jones Maybach.
The meeting in question was Woodside, in 1952, and the protagonists in the F1 race were Jones in the Maybach and Whiteford in the Lago. The Maybach won, as I recall, due to its limited slip diff (shall we not get into that argument again?).
Other cars in the race would have been an assortment of Ford V8 Specials and the like, while the F2 race was full of MG TCs in varying states of stripping...
The Grand Prix was originally to be run to F1 rules, but a change of heart saw the whole thing dropped. The next time Australia had an International Formula (apart from the Tasman Formula, which was for Aust & NZ, anyway) it was Formula Pacific, which was really F. Atlantic. Or should I include F. Vee (1965) and Formula Ford (1969) in the list?

#9 Racer.Demon

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 13:48

Originally posted by Ray Bell
To my knowledge (which is scant on this period), there was only ever one meeting in Australia prior to 1985 at which races were scheduled for Formula One and Formula Two.


Ray, the 1980 Australian GP at Calder Park was open to F1 cars, wasn't it? Granted, just two of them raced, but Jones and Giacomelli turned it into a corker all the same. So a non-championship F1 race then? (Notwithstanding it was also the final round of the Goldstar F5000 Championship.)


#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 October 2000 - 19:55

Of course... how could I forget that one? Balloons bursting on hot bitumen...

#11 Falcadore

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Posted 28 October 2000 - 09:16

Weren't there also a couple of F1 cars scatterred about the 1980 Gold Star series amongst the Formula 5000's for the Australian Drivers Championship? A Fittipaldi at one point? Prior to the arrival of the Williams for Jones and the Alfa for Giacomelli.

yours
Mark Jones

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2000 - 13:56

From memory, only in the International races, with the Wolf and Ensign driven by Kennedy and Purley.
A Formula One Brabham DFV ran at Bathurst Hillclimb, however...

#13 Barry Lake

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Posted 03 November 2000 - 14:21

Ray that was David Kennedy and Geoff Lees who drove the F1 cars in Australia.

I see David every year at the Australian GP (I think he covers the GPs for Irish TV) and used to see Geoff Lees in Japan in the late 1980s. Geoff just announced his retirement last week, incidentally. Both really nice blokes.

Kennedy tells "English" jokes: "Did you hear the one about the Englishman who...".

He and another driver - well known but I can't think of his name at the moment - early in their careers took a year or maybe two off to come to Australia and work in the mining industry in the north of Western Australia where, he told me, they made huge money. They went back home, bought better equipment, and carried on with their careers.

By the way, good to see you back on board. I was beginning to become worried.

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 November 2000 - 11:16

Yes, I thought I was on the wrong track, but I wasn't going to take the trouble to look it up, and I was too tired to think properly...
You now have your Patto info.