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Exhaust plumbing aesthetics


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#1 DOHC

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 05:52

Anyone else interested in the beautiful art of complex exhaust plumbing?

Some obvious favorites are the 1967 Ferrari 312, and the 4.2 liter Indy Ford V8. Sadly, this fine art is rarely on display these days, and one also notes that styles have changed considerably, with the second half of the 60s appearing to be the golden era.

If you have any favorites (Eagle titanium pipes, Matra, Honda, turbo units, whatever) bring them on!

Some teasers nicked from the web (see post source code for original sites and sources) :

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#2 GD66

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 06:14

Good one, DOHC. You'll find a few early Hondas and a Brabham or two in the list as well, the Eagle as you've noted, great stuff ! Let the burglary continue..... :smoking:

#3 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 07:28

There is some pics on the Brabham/ Repco engines thread of the very complex pipes on the Repco engines with centre exhaust.

#4 Stoatspeed

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 13:28

Good topic! I have a couple of contributions on the art of the pipe bender - my own work so no need to apologize to the copyright holder ..... just don't nick them from here, OK!! Both are Ferrari F1 engines shot at the wonderful Galleria Ferrari in Maranello - if you have not been there, just go!!!!

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and

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#5 RStock

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 17:10

Gotta love the Matra . From Shorey.net

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And for really old stuff , Bertie Moir's Striker Squire . From The Brooklands Society .

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#6 h4887

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 19:29

Anyone else interested in the beautiful art of complex exhaust plumbing?

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You have to feel sorry for the poor soul who has to bolt this lot on or off... :(


#7 D-Type

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 20:50

Do I see evidence of a cracked weld?

#8 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 07:54

Honda RA 273

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And a really beautiful car, a 330 P4. The pic might not reveal too much, but it sure looks good enough...

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#9 stevewf1

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 08:40

Do I see evidence of a cracked weld?


Certainly looks like a "burnt" area there, doesn't it?



#10 tedwentz

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 12:05

This is a great idea for a thread. Looking at the pictures shows the artistry achieved by the British specialists like TDC (Derrington) and Mike the Pipe. The bends were all done by heating a length of the proper tubing size tightly filled with dry (hopefully) sand and capped at both ends. The tubing was then slowly and carefully bent to match the shape of a wire form. The result is a beautifully smooth constant section piece of pipe from the exhaust port to the collector. Very few people today have the skill set to do this and most exhausts are now fashioned from machine bent sections welded together. It is nearly a lost art form.
I believe the Ferrari and the Indy car pipes shown are coated with Sperex VHT paint which was introduced in various colors in the late 1960's. This is an American product and was a unique paint with extreme temperature tolerance. It was quite expensive and most British teams wiped down the unpainted surface of their pipes with a light film of oil after each race to prevent rusting in the damp climes. I remember doing this on our cars in the '70's. This is what we now do with our vintage racing Brabham BT23C F2 car and it makes a cool "period correct" smoke screen when we start the car up at the next race meeting. You can also quickly see which cylinders are firing properly. TW

#11 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 14:29

Do I see evidence of a cracked weld?



I don't think that's a weld. The pipes went into collectors which merged three pipes into one (the 312 had four tailpipes, from twelve cylinders). And it certainly looks like the collector wasn't welded, but was attached with a screw, allowing the tailpipes to be removed. This seems to have been the standard approach, for the 4.2 Indy Ford engine used the same arrangement:

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It was used at least as late as 1972. Here's , wings and all, but using the same mid-60s plumbing, on Dale Bargman's Indy entry in 1972.

tedwentz Thanks for your input! Yes, that paint made the plumbing even more extraordinary. But it wasn't available in that many colours, was it?

Edited by DOHC, 27 September 2009 - 14:32.


#12 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 16:10

Honda RA 300 in the Parabolica -- John Surtees with a fantastic "hairdo," and on his way to victory:

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But as we see here, the RA 300 had its three-into-one collectors welded.

Edited by DOHC, 27 September 2009 - 16:11.


#13 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 16:17

RA 273 seems to have had at least two layouts,


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(Note some wrinkles in the really tight turns...)

Edited by DOHC, 27 September 2009 - 16:40.


#14 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 16:43

But what is this? FOund it when Googling RA 273. It is claimed to be an RA 273 at the German GP in 1967. Note the megaphones made by "Lukey Muffler" (sic!) :

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Edited by DOHC, 27 September 2009 - 16:43.


#15 Tony Matthews

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 17:32

Certainly looks like a "burnt" area there, doesn't it?

It's not a weld, just one section a push fit over another, the two sections held together with overlapping brackets and small bolts. Inevitably some exhaust leak takes place, and it shows up more on the white paint finish.

#16 Geoff E

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 17:45

But what is this? FOund it when Googling RA 273. It is claimed to be an RA 273 at the German GP in 1967. Note the megaphones made by "Lukey Muffler" (sic!) :


The Honda photo is above that one. From what I remember from GPL, that's a Brabham.

http://www.tcnj.edu/...g67/ring-67.htm


#17 DOHC

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 17:58

Yes, of course, it must be a BT24. Also, the rear right tire seems to have been labeled "DH RACE" and Denny Hulme won it too.

#18 tedwentz

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 19:13

Yes, that paint made the plumbing even more extraordinary. But it wasn't available in that many colours, was it?


I'm pretty sure that aside from white and black it was available in yellow, red and blue.


#19 kayemod

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 19:32

I'm pretty sure that aside from white and black it was available in yellow, red and blue.


I think that's right. I'm deviating a little here, and not for the first time, but back then I was a fairly successful teenage slot car racer. I got hold of some Sperex from a race car preparation business in one of the arches under Exchange Station in Manchester, F3 I think, and I used to coat the armatures of the electric motors in my 1/32nd scale cars with the stuff, they used to get quite hot and the stuff needs heat to cure properly. I won quite a lot of races back then, so if the Sperex didn't do a lot of good, it certainly didn't do any harm. Barry Boor will know exactly what I mean. Like I said, I'm deviating, sorry about that.


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#20 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 21:02

My experiences with VHT is the color always goes off,red goes white when the engine is going. The last lot at least goes red again when it cools. It is ok on secondary pipes for color. I have never favored white extractors, too hard to keep clean. But it stops the pipes from going rusty, and holds some extra heat in the pipes which is the most important thing.
What was popular from the 60s on was aluminium sprayed extractors. It lasts forever but almost impossible to weld them after. I have seen 30y/o extractors from dirt track speedway engines that still look quite good, though they still rust from the inside!
The current ceramic coatings seem to chip far more and it never seems to get into the tiny spaces between the collector pipes so they go rusty still.
The CRC idea sounds ok for those areas.

#21 bschenker

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 21:26

But what is this? FOund it when Googling RA 273. It is claimed to be an RA 273 at the German GP in 1967. Note the megaphones made by "Lukey Muffler" (sic!) :

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That's clearly a BT24, and it's look like the BT24-1, the rear bulge is originally not for the DG300 Gearbox. The BT24-2 and BT24-3 have a differently bulge with the stabilisation bar higher fixed.
So that's the Jack Brabham car or Hulme has raced on the BT24-1.

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#22 Wirra

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 21:47

The Bob Jane Repco Brabham at Warwick Farm - A BT23 I think, but I'll leave to the experts.

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#23 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 23:54

Anyone else interested in the beautiful art of complex exhaust plumbing?

Yes! Some lovely pics. :up:

Don't suppose this counts... :well:

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Maybe this one...

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Rob :wave:

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 27 September 2009 - 23:58.


#24 DOHC

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 05:28

Rob, is that an Alfa 33 TT? As for the W196, it may not be complex plumbing, but it certainly is a classic!

Wirra, that Brabham is a beauty!


#25 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 07:58

Rob, is that an Alfa 33 TT? As for the W196, it may not be complex plumbing, but it certainly is a classic!

Yes, DOHC, the Alfa 33 at the Silverstone Classic, and the W196 at the Revival.

How about this fella?

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Rob :wave:

Edited by Kingsleyrob, 28 September 2009 - 07:59.


#26 alansart

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 08:07

That lovely Matra again :)

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#27 Isetta

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:02

But what is this? FOund it when Googling RA 273. It is claimed to be an RA 273 at the German GP in 1967. Note the megaphones made by "Lukey Muffler" (sic!) :

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Jack Brabham's BT24 at the 67 Gold Cup
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Sorry, meant to be a reply to bschenker's post.

Edited by Isetta, 28 September 2009 - 14:05.


#28 barrykm

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:27

What beuty! Glad to see my personal favourite, the '67 Ferrari. The Eagle Weslake deserves a picture in this post as well.

#29 barrykm

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:27

What beauty! Glad to see my personal favourite, the '67 Ferrari. The Eagle Weslake deserves a picture in this post as well.

#30 lowdrag

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:56

I hesitate to post since compared to the above the pics are mundane, but compared to a standard system are a true work of art and fit straight into place with no work needed.

http://www.classicfa..._manifolds.html

#31 Jones Foyer

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:38

The Honda photo is above that one. From what I remember from GPL, that's a Brabham.

http://www.tcnj.edu/...g67/ring-67.htm


Yep, at the German GP in 1967, Honda used the more fluid exhaust routing that would be seen on the RA300 at Monza. The first RA273 exhaust was kinky (literally).

RA273 Germany 1967:

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RA300 Monza 1967:

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The of course, the direct approach, RA270 influenced by Honda's GP bikes, one pipe per cylinder. This is an early version of the transverse 12, so the forward bank of exhaust routed the under the engine:

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Edited by Jones Foyer, 28 September 2009 - 16:41.


#32 nmansellfan

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 17:54

This isn't the best picture, but the exhaust piping on the Lamborghini engined F1 cars from 1989 - 1992 (?) must have taken some skilled fabrication.

http://www.lamborghi...S35-5engine.jpg

#33 DOHC

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 19:58

Eagle T1G

A nice angle on track

Plain side view



#34 RA Historian

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 22:09


Probably a bit too picky on my part, but "T1G" was never an Eagle designation. According to John Zimmermann's book Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars such a designation was never used, and that is according to Dan Gurney himself. The right designation of the four F-1 Eagles was "Mark I".
Tom

#35 macoran

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 22:25

So no distinction between the aloomnum chassis and the magneesum ?
The 4 cyl Climax popper and the V12 clunker ?

#36 MCS

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 22:42

All interesting and the Honda pictures are good. But what did the RA302 look like?

Or was it relatively normal, despite the rest of it not being (if that makes sense)?? :rolleyes:

#37 Ian G

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 23:58

This is the exhaust of a Datsun 710(Violet) rally car out of the 1970's.
One of the Scandinavian Drivers whom we met and had a few beers with at the Southern Cross Rally in Australia pretended the starter motor wasn't working at a service break to get the Jap. mechanics to lift the bonnet and show us, although slightly different to this photo it was an absolute work of art,very impressive. Oh,he copped a spray in Japanese from one of the mechanics and then drove off laughing.!!

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#38 Jerry Entin

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 01:00

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Gurney Eagle headers

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Gurney Eagle rear view

photos Tom Schultz- copyright 2009 Tom Schultz

Edited by Jerry Entin, 29 September 2009 - 01:04.


#39 DOHC

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 05:33

Probably a bit too picky on my part, but "T1G" was never an Eagle designation. According to John Zimmermann's book Dan Gurney's Eagle Racing Cars such a designation was never used, and that is according to Dan Gurney himself. The right designation of the four F-1 Eagles was "Mark I".
Tom


I know, it's just that if you want any serious hits using Google, you have to use "T1G," as this designation, false or not, is the more widespread... :blush:


Jerry, thanks for that beautiful picture of the Eagle's headers. :up: BTW, do you by any chance have any pictures from "under the hood" from your Can-Am days?

Edited by DOHC, 29 September 2009 - 05:48.


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#40 David Shaw

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 14:19

The Bob Jane Repco Brabham at Warwick Farm - A BT23 I think, but I'll leave to the experts.


The one and only BT23E, Jack's 1968 Tasman mount.


#41 RA Historian

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 15:13

So no distinction between the aloomnum chassis and the magneesum ?
The 4 cyl Climax popper and the V12 clunker ?

Nope; according to the same source, all four were Mark I.
Tom

#42 jgm

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 18:14

Are the aesthetics affected by the material used in the exhaust system? I get the impression that the exhausts on older cars (stainless steel?) are more pliable and don't require so much cutting and welding to achieve the required curves. Exhausts on more modern cars (Iconel?) seem to made up of many short sections welded together.

#43 Jerry Entin

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 18:23

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Wild exhaust system on Jeff Miller's Kohler 6
This is in his Lola called the WynnFurst Lola.


photo- Tom Schultz- copyright 2009 Tom Schultz

#44 Frank S

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 23:10

My nominee (from the Goodwood 2009 thread):

Bugatti w/ manifold

#45 Jones Foyer

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 17:58

All interesting and the Honda pictures are good. But what did the RA302 look like?

Or was it relatively normal, despite the rest of it not being (if that makes sense)?? :rolleyes:


I would say normal, yes. The routing was similar to the preceding water cooled RA301 (at this point, Honda had moved the exhaust outlets to the sides of the engine whereas the RA272/300 had the gorgeous center exiting exhausts. Diameter was larger however, as the RA301 was eight larger cylinders with basically the same displacement as the V-12.

(Flickr hosting)

RA301:

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RA302:

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RA302 revised version- not raced, only tested. Note the routing goes over and under the a-arms:

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Edited by Jones Foyer, 30 September 2009 - 18:26.


#46 kayemod

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 18:37

Seeing all that, I'm reminded of the biblical expression, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do".

#47 DOHC

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 20:47

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McLaren M8D at least had adequate tail pipes, although gearbox seems to have some shortcomings.  ;)




http://www.conceptca...,0,0/photo.aspx

Dimensions are up a size or two compared with F1 engines.

#48 David Beard

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 20:55

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#49 asapiro

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 22:08


Love the Ferrari 312 - one of my favorites


Back in 1925 Delage was faced with the problem of how to exhaust gases out of his 2 litre V 12 - from the center of the
cylinder heads - only this was front engined - designer Lorry's solution was elegant ...

And once I learn how to post pictures I'll send one!



#50 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 11:45

Posted Image
Wild exhaust system on Jeff Miller's Kohler 6
This is in his Lola called the WynnFurst Lola.


photo- Tom Schultz- copyright 2009 Tom Schultz

What sort of engine is that? A V6 2 stroke from a boat or something?