44 replies to this topic

[oldtransamdriver]

While looking thru my December 68 issue of Wheelspin News (Canadian race paper) I spotted an ad for the 68 Gagnon Spring camaro, listed as follows:

"This car won 3 of the 4 races entered in the eastern Canadian Championship and finished second in the Canadian finals at Westwood B.C. (Canadian Sedan Championship). This Roger Penske built car also ran in the 1968 Sebring 12 HR. event with Mark Donohue and Craig Fisher aboard and finished 3rd o/a and was first sedan. This car has a Traco engine and front and rear disc brakes."

There is a photo of the car, #50, in white with a dark hood, and the driver and a crew member are standing beside it. No mention of the driver's name, but it may have been Francois Favreau, who also drove Mustangs.

For Sale - $6500 with the Traco, or $4500 without the engine.

Contact Bob Gagnon or Bob Sirois. There is also mention of enough parts including a Holman Moody engine to buid a Mustang for $3000. (I believe Favreau had wrecked a Mustang somewhere).

So where did this camaro end up? How many 68 Penske camaros were built? I will have to read my Unfair Advantage again, and finish the latest Donohue book "Excellence at Speed".

Lots of mysteries still re many of those early T/A cars including several Canadian built ones that I raced against.

Robert Barg

[Tom Smith]

While looking thru my December 68 issue of Wheelspin News (Canadian race paper) I spotted an ad for the 68 Gagnon Spring camaro, listed as follows:

"This car won 3 of the 4 races entered in the eastern Canadian Championship and finished second in the Canadian finals at Westwood B.C. (Canadian Sedan Championship). This Roger Penske built car also ran in the 1968 Sebring 12 HR. event with Mark Donohue and Craig Fisher aboard and finished 3rd o/a and was first sedan. This car has a Traco engine and front and rear disc brakes."

There is a photo of the car, #50, in white with a dark hood, and the driver and a crew member are standing beside it. No mention of the driver's name, but it may have been Francois Favreau, who also drove Mustangs.

For Sale - $6500 with the Traco, or $4500 without the engine.

Contact Bob Gagnon or Bob Sirois. There is also mention of enough parts including a Holman Moody engine to buid a Mustang for $3000. (I believe Favreau had wrecked a Mustang somewhere).

So where did this camaro end up? How many 68 Penske camaros were built? I will have to read my Unfair Advantage again, and finish the latest Donohue book "Excellence at Speed".

Lots of mysteries still re many of those early T/A cars including several Canadian built ones that I raced against.

Robert Barg

I think possibly the Camaro was converted to a Firebird and raced in the Trans Am series driven by Jerry Titus. They claimed Firebirds built in Canada used Chevrolet engines. I don't know if Firebirds built in Canada in fact did have Chevrolet engines or for that matter if Firebirds were even produced in Canada or if it was complete BS. It may have become the first T/G (Titus/Godsall) Racing Firebird, not really positive. Titus used Chevrolet engines built by Al Bartz in Van Nuys, California, right just across the street from Canada.

Edited by Tom Smith, 30 September 2009 - 06:29.

[Aero Z-28]

Robert,

That is not a '68 Camaro but is the original Craig Fisher '67 Z-28 which became the lightweight Penske Camaro which won its class at Sebring in '68, then was used by Craig Fisher at the '68 Lime Rock Trans-Am before a real '68 Firebird was built for him. Fisher then drove the '68 Firebird beginning at Meadowdale and Francois Favreau took over the driving duties of the Camaro, racing the car in Canadian racing events. At the end of '68, the car was sold to Larry Gilbride and Jean Hrab, who continued to race it in Canada and then Francois Guertin bought it in 1970. This is the car owned by Pat Ryan currently. It was never a Firebird. The car that Godsall changed into a Firebird was the Jon Ward Camaro which finished well at Riverside in '68. Titus wanted to bail out on Ford before the end of the '68 season due to the Tunnelport 302 debacle so Godsall lured him in by purchasing Ward's Camaro (the two cars were side-by-side in the Riverside garages by the way) and converting it to a Firebird so Titus could have a car to race at the Kent Trans-Am. Titus put that car on the pole at Kent but blew the engine in the race, if I remember correctly. Then that "Firebird" went on to a 3rd overall at Daytona in '69 with Titus and Ward driving. Afterwards, Ward got his car back and ended up selling it to a racer down in Mexico. The Fisher '68 Firebird was raced by Dick Brown in '69 and ended up getting destroyed.

-Jon

[oldtransamdriver]

Thanks Jon, glad to see you have joined our TNF gang. See you at the "Tribute to Trans Am".

Robert Barg

[Aero Z-28]

You're welcome, Robert. I'll see you there!

-Jon

[ERIKZ]

What ever happened to Francois Favreau's Mustang and what race did he wreck the Mustang at? Is the Mustang still around or has it passed on to the great bone yard?

[oldtransamdriver]

I don't believe that Mustang has been "reborn". Will search for info relating to that car.

Robert Barg

[jeffBarley]

Hi Jon / Bob.. long time "no speak" !!.. saw the post so hope you don't mind my contribution to the subject (!)
Jon and I still have an amicable difference of opinion in the true linage of the Penske / camarobird cars, but i have done a lot of research into the 68 Dick Brown car (which we will call a "Firebird" to keep it simple :-) ) .. a slight correction however on the fate of that car..
Dick Brown took the car to St Jovite a few days ahead of the TransAm event that year (I think it was august?) .. he had Jerry Titus test the car as Dick wanted his view on a handling issue.. Jerry took it out on the wednesday and lost it coming out of turn 5.. the car was damaged to the point where it could not be repaired in time for the weekends event.. As a result, Jerry / Godsel offered Dick Brown / Gagnon a replacement "firebird" which was in "fresh paint".. (so what car was that "conspiracy lovers!?) and Dicks team spent the next couple of days preparing the car for that weekends event... including adding the fender hi-lite detail tht he had run on his original car.. thats why the Dick Brown car changes colour before / after / during the 1969 St Jovite weekend..
Now as part of the deal, Dick delivers the damaged original car to Jerry's shop after that weekend.. in fact he left it on a trailor outside the shop.. that was the lst that Dick saw of that car.. so that was August 1969.. By feb (from memory).. Robert Gagnon is offering to sell that same car.. presumably repaired.. and describes it as a "Firebird".. a few months later he then re-advertises the same car as a "Camaro" .. presumably turned into (or back into?) a camaro because no-one wanted to race a first gen' firebird in 1970 with all the issues over engine sizes ..blah blah..
so in early -mid 1970 Robert Gagon is offering a freshly re-built 1st gen camaro which in reality was the ex-Dick Brown / Gagnon / ??? "firebird".. my view (to Jons disagreement!) is that this was one of the original Penske '67 camaros.. but thats another subject (!).. so the question is .. "what was it?" and where did it go?..
FYI.. i gleamed the above over some time having tracked down Dick Brown and also Robert Gagnon.. and who now resides outside mainland USA... :-)
The car that WAS lost is / was the car that Dick drove at (and after) St Jovite for the remainder of the 1969 season.. that car was rebuilt over the fall of 1969 and made to look like a '69 camaro.. it was repainted Green and gold (from memory... i don't have my files infront of me!) and which then passed through various hands until it was parted out and the remains dumped in a landfill site in canada.. that car was the car that Titus / Godsel "gave" to Gagnon after Jerry damaged Dicks original "Firebird..
hope this helps guys!!!???

[Red Socks]

Hi Jon / Bob.. long time "no speak" !!.. saw the post so hope you don't mind my contribution to the subject (!)
Jon and I still have an amicable difference of opinion in the true linage of the Penske / camarobird cars, but i have done a lot of research into the 68 Dick Brown car (which we will call a "Firebird" to keep it simple :-) ) .. a slight correction however on the fate of that car..
Dick Brown took the car to St Jovite a few days ahead of the TransAm event that year (I think it was august?) .. he had Jerry Titus test the car as Dick wanted his view on a handling issue.. Jerry took it out on the wednesday and lost it coming out of turn 5.. the car was damaged to the point where it could not be repaired in time for the weekends event.. As a result, Jerry / Godsel offered Dick Brown / Gagnon a replacement "firebird" which was in "fresh paint".. (so what car was that "conspiracy lovers!?) and Dicks team spent the next couple of days preparing the car for that weekends event... including adding the fender hi-lite detail tht he had run on his original car.. thats why the Dick Brown car changes colour before / after / during the 1969 St Jovite weekend..
Now as part of the deal, Dick delivers the damaged original car to Jerry's shop after that weekend.. in fact he left it on a trailor outside the shop.. that was the lst that Dick saw of that car.. so that was August 1969.. By feb (from memory).. Robert Gagnon is offering to sell that same car.. presumably repaired.. and describes it as a "Firebird".. a few months later he then re-advertises the same car as a "Camaro" .. presumably turned into (or back into?) a camaro because no-one wanted to race a first gen' firebird in 1970 with all the issues over engine sizes ..blah blah..
so in early -mid 1970 Robert Gagon is offering a freshly re-built 1st gen camaro which in reality was the ex-Dick Brown / Gagnon / ??? "firebird".. my view (to Jons disagreement!) is that this was one of the original Penske '67 camaros.. but thats another subject (!).. so the question is .. "what was it?" and where did it go?..
FYI.. i gleamed the above over some time having tracked down Dick Brown and also Robert Gagnon.. and who now resides outside mainland USA... :-)
The car that WAS lost is / was the car that Dick drove at (and after) St Jovite for the remainder of the 1969 season.. that car was rebuilt over the fall of 1969 and made to look like a '69 camaro.. it was repainted Green and gold (from memory... i don't have my files infront of me!) and which then passed through various hands until it was parted out and the remains dumped in a landfill site in canada.. that car was the car that Titus / Godsel "gave" to Gagnon after Jerry damaged Dicks original "Firebird..
hope this helps guys!!!???

Just rang Don to see if it was you the real thing Jeff.Hows Bishops Stortford?

[HistoricMustang]

The TNF members continue to amaze me!

Henry

[Jose]

Cool Camaro.

Jose

[manitouguy]

HI all, i am new hear and just posted a question on the other trans am thread but did not see this one - i am trying to get confirmation of the '68 Craig Fisher Godsell Firebird - i only have two black and white pictures of it - one from Friedman's book and one from an old muscle car magazine - if anyone has a color shot of it and can help, or recalls its colors that would be fantastic!! and much appreciated - and as i mentioned on the other thread thanks to all of you for posing on the vintage trans am - i love this stuff!!

i was told the firebird may have been yellow with black striping - but seem to recall somewhere another color shot !?!?
help please and thanks -

regards, Ron

[Bruce302]

Ron,
To the best of my knowledge, and from pics I have seen in the past, but for the life of me I cannot found now, I am pretty sure/certain that the car was yellow when Craig drove it, and it may have been Euclid yellow becuase of the Godsall connection with that brand.

[Bruce302]

Jeff,
long time my friend,

so in early -mid 1970 Robert Gagon is offering a freshly re-built 1st gen camaro which in reality was the ex-Dick Brown / Gagnon / ??? "firebird".. my view (to Jons disagreement!) is that this was one of the original Penske '67 camaros.. but thats another subject (!).. so the question is .. "what was it?" and where did it go?..

If I may add my take on the above. The Ex Godsall/Fisher/Dick Brown Firebird was certainly a '68. After it was repaired by Titus' workshop, and returned as a Firebird. Gagnon obviously couldn't sell it as a Firebird, so changed it too a Camaro.
It must have become just another used Camaro race car.

Of course with out the actual VIN, or a very reliable first person account we can't yet be sure if it was a real Camaro or Firebird, but period photos show a Pontiac rear axle and it's less work to start with a Firebird than convert something else.

Regards,
Bruce.

[manitouguy]

Bruce 302 thanks very much for the info - did you mean you may have a photo in color, that you can't locate?? (i only ask as i have been looking for a photo in my stacks for ... 10 yrs ... still looking for it and no luck yet!!).

I just spent 2 hrs stacking another pile of vintage trans am articles - there must be at least 20 - 30 of them, and in all of it i may have just found two more pictures of the '68 Fisher Firebird - is it OK to post here from a very old magazine?? and sorry, should i start another thread or is it related enough here?

again, thanks very much - Ron

[manitouguy]

Oh and sorry, can you explain 'euclid yellow'?? and Godsall relation - sorry for my ignorance
Ron

[Bruce302]

From what I have read, Terry Godsall's family had a GM/Euclid (heavy earthmoving gear) dealership in Canada. I think it provided a a bit of surplus cash, or enough to indulge in some motor sport at least. I may be wrong on the Euclid yellow, but it was yellow.

I'm not sure if I have a colour pic, if I do it will be well buried. I will look as time permits.

There is a thread about posting old pics, it is advisable to read that, at the very least acknowledge the photographer or source.


Bruce.

[manitouguy]

again thanks very much for the reply and info bruce

and yes whenever i post old material i try to list source, date etc etc for credit

anyhow if you do find a color image some day please post!

regards, Ron

[Jose]

From what I have read, Terry Godsall's family had a GM/Euclid (heavy earthmoving gear) dealership in Canada. I think it provided a a bit of surplus cash, or enough to indulge in some motor sport at least. I may be wrong on the Euclid yellow, but it was yellow.

I'm not sure if I have a colour pic, if I do it will be well buried. I will look as time permits.

There is a thread about posting old pics, it is advisable to read that, at the very least acknowledge the photographer or source.


Bruce.

Euclid was Yellow/yellowish while Terex was Green. **both were Owned and started by GM**



Source

Euclid/Terex Heavy Equipment/Earthmovers Book By Eric Orlemann.

Jose

[jeffBarley]

Just rang Don to see if it was you the real thing Jeff.Hows Bishops Stortford?

yep!.. c'est moi!!!.. loving b'stortford! .. didn't realise my little note would generate so much interest.. big interest in these cars?

[jeffBarley]

HI all, i am new hear and just posted a question on the other trans am thread but did not see this one - i am trying to get confirmation of the '68 Craig Fisher Godsell Firebird - i only have two black and white pictures of it - one from Friedman's book and one from an old muscle car magazine - if anyone has a color shot of it and can help, or recalls its colors that would be fantastic!! and much appreciated - and as i mentioned on the other thread thanks to all of you for posing on the vintage trans am - i love this stuff!!

i was told the firebird may have been yellow with black striping - but seem to recall somewhere another color shot !?!?
help please and thanks -

regards, Ron

Ron.. to my knowledge it only ever ran "yellow" with black fender highlites and was in this colour scheme when ran by Dick Brown.. as per my earlier post his car cahnged colour at St Jovite which is why photos at that event and after show the Dick Brown car as "orange".. but that was a different car

FYI The other "camarobird" was of course the Jon Ward "firebird" that he eventually ran at Daytona and in which he and Jerry Titus won their class.. different car again :-)

I have some other photos of the yellow car somewhere in my file.. i will endevour to pick out :-)

[jeffBarley]

Jeff,
long time my friend,

so in early -mid 1970 Robert Gagon is offering a freshly re-built 1st gen camaro which in reality was the ex-Dick Brown / Gagnon / ??? "firebird".. my view (to Jons disagreement!) is that this was one of the original Penske '67 camaros.. but thats another subject (!).. so the question is .. "what was it?" and where did it go?..

If I may add my take on the above. The Ex Godsall/Fisher/Dick Brown Firebird was certainly a '68. After it was repaired by Titus' workshop, and returned as a Firebird. Gagnon obviously couldn't sell it as a Firebird, so changed it too a Camaro.
It must have become just another used Camaro race car.

Of course with out the actual VIN, or a very reliable first person account we can't yet be sure if it was a real Camaro or Firebird, but period photos show a Pontiac rear axle and it's less work to start with a Firebird than convert something else.

Regards,
Bruce.

hi Bruce!.. long time indeed my friend!.. mute point if it was a 67 or 68.. long stories though!!... but you are correct on the motive for finally rebuilding the car as a camaro.. in 1970 no-one would have wanted to run a 1st gen firebird.. but since it was originally a Camaro (as I contend :-) ) then it was no big deal to convert it back.. :-).. Apart from the obvious swop of panels, the other major change required when runing abcamarobird was to run with a PMD rear end,, Tech would have spotted a camaro rear end a mile off..
ps.. I had almost forgotton all of this !! :-)

[jeffBarley]

Oh and sorry, can you explain 'euclid yellow'?? and Godsall relation - sorry for my ignorance
Ron

ron.. terry godsall wanted to be to PMD in canada what Penske was to Chevrolet in the USA.. Godsall owned Craig Fishers original camaro and was linked with Fisher / Penske / Gagnon.. Godsall wanted PMD's sponsorhip $$'s.. he wanted to show PMD that he could run a competative "firebird" on the "race on sunday-sell on monday" angle.. but needed it to run strong atriaght out of the box.. hence the (alleged!) conversion of the penske liteweight into a "firebird" .. but remember that SCCA wern't happy with the original penske liteweight.. they knew it wasn't legal but needed penske to get it out of the series.. so penske lets Godsall have the car.. convert it into a Firebird and thus hide it in plain sight.. and also tell SCCA "look.. we sold our old car to some guys in Canada.. so its outta Transam.. satisfied guys?!".. but the liteweight didnt go to canada.. it ran with fisher at the wheel in TA.. and to complete the illlusion the car that DID go to canada was sold as "the liteweight".. to (allegedly complete the illusion) and thats why you have to be wary of reliance on what future ad's say when describing that same car... cos thats what gagnon THOUGHT he had bought... oh what a wicked web we weave..

..... and just a footnote to those who might need convincing?.. when Godsall sold the camarobird to Ganon he told him that he MUST "convert it back to a camaro".. which Gagnon ignored.. My suspicion is that there was a concern that "those upstairs"might realise that what had been running around with Fisher at the wheel in TA wasn't actually a firebird but a rebodied camaro.. ooopsss... BIG corporate red faces .... and Fisher even remembers cutting in the fake gills into the rear fenders...

funny old world this TA racing .. :-)

[jeffBarley]

Euclid was Yellow/yellowish while Terex was Green. **both were Owned and started by GM**



Source

Euclid/Terex Heavy Equipment/Earthmovers Book By Eric Orlemann.

Jose

correct :-)

[Aero Z-28]

Hi Jeff,

Long time, no hear. I hope all is well. If I may rebut a few things, certainly a Camaro was converted by the Gagnon Spring team into a Firebird and Fisher would have remembered that. However it was Jon Ward's Camaro that was converted into the Firebird that Titus used at the '68 Kent race. This Jon Ward Camaro-bird was definitely not ever Fisher's original '67 Camaro, which I believe went on to become the '68 Sebring T/A class winner under Penske-Godsall Racing sponsorship. Francois Favreau was driving the Sebring class winner in '68 (after Fisher raced it at Lime Rock) and Fisher got a true '68 Firebird which did run with the PMD rear axle, because it was in fact a true Pontiac. The Firebird that Fisher drove in '68 did have the VIN tag on the top of the dash (unlike a '67 which has the VIN tag in the front door jamb area), the vents in the door jamb area of the quarter panels, and the creases around the 68 wiper motor on the firewall that are all indicative of a '68 model. Also, the roll cage below the level of the side windows does not match the rollcage design used on the '67 Penske cars. When I talked with Ron Fournier at the Petersen Automotive Museum's Tribute to Trans-Am event a couple of months ago, I asked him about Fisher's VIN being on Pat Ryan's car and he said to me "Why should that be unusual?" He also told me he did not build any of the '67 Penske cars and said they were both very roughly built. He mentioned that he tried to clean them up the best that he could but he was busy with the '68 car(s). I do agree that Fisher's '68 Firebird went to Dick Brown for the '69 season but there is no connection that I can see between that car and any '67 Penske or Fisher car.

On another note, to my eye there is a slight hint of green in the yellow of Fisher's '68 Firebird. Mostly yellow but just a hint of green in there. That's how it looks to my eyes anyway.

-Jon

Edited by Aero Z-28, 31 January 2010 - 23:28.

[Bruce302]

It was definitely not Fisher's original '67 which became the '68 Sebring T/A class winner under Penske-Godsall Racing sponsorship.

Hi Jon,
Surely the "not" in the above line should not be there. It was the same car wasn't it ?

Bruce.

Edited by Bruce302, 31 January 2010 - 22:55.

[jeffBarley]

Hi Jeff,

Long time, no hear. I hope all is well. If I may rebut a few things, certainly a Camaro was converted by the Gagnon Spring team into a Firebird and Fisher would have remembered that. However it was Jon Ward's Camaro that was converted into the Firebird that Titus used at the '68 Kent race. It was definitely not Fisher's original '67 which became the '68 Sebring T/A class winner under Penske-Godsall Racing sponsorship. Francois Favreau was driving the Sebring class winner in '68 and Fisher got a true '68 Firebird which did run with the PMD rear axle, because it was in fact a true Pontiac. The Firebird Fisher drove in '68 did have the VIN tag on the top of the dash (unlike a '67 which has the VIN tag in the front door jamb area), the vents in the door jamb area of the quarter panels, and the creases around the 68 wiper motor on the firewall that are all indicative of a '68 model. Also, the roll cage below the level of the side windows does not match the rollcage design used on the '67 Penske cars. When I talked with Ron Fournier at the Petersen Automotive Museum's Tribute to Trans-Am event a couple of months ago, I asked him about Fisher's VIN being on Pat Ryan's car and he said to me "Why should that be unusual?" He also told me he did not build any of the '67 Penske cars and said they were both very roughly built. He mentioned that he tried to clean them up the best that he could but he was busy with the '68 car(s). I do agree that Fisher's '68 Firebird went to Dick Brown for the '69 season but there is no connection that I can see between that car and any '67 Penske or Fisher car.

On another note, to my eye there is a slight hint of green in the yellow of Fisher's '68 Firebird. Mostly yellow but just a hint of green in there. That's how it looks to my eyes anyway.

-Jon

Hi jon.. been too long my friend!!.. my apologies if my ramblings are confusing but not my intention to suggest that it was the fisher camarobird that became the ward-titus class winner @ daytona.. that was (as you say) the jon ward car.. originally a camaro and then built into a camarobird by ward.. :-) .. no doubt on that!.. by my reakoning thats two camarobirds.. :-)

re fishers VIN on Pat's car.. as you will recall I documented some time back that Fishers original camaro went to canada in the latter part of '67 where it was tested by Dewar (with a view to buying the car), and not returned to the US until early '68.. the linage on the PR car is (as I understand it) dependant on being able to proove that Fishers original daytona car went to penske's shop in august 67 (or was it september?) and for it to then have been stripped down and rebuilt by the penske team into the liteweight... and then ran at sebring in '68 etc.. my problem has always been trying to follow the logic of Penske stripping and rebuilding what was an existing ex-road / race car and turning it into a litweight when with his access to GM "backdoor" he could have just started with an acid-dipped shell from the get-go.?. (and besides which I don't think any ex-penske TA camaro team mechanic has ever stated recollecting taking fishers old car and stripping it down and turning it into the liteweight.. i would suggest that a race crew would remember having the aggrevation of undergoing such a task towards the end of a busy season?..and besides the original fisher car is in canada when it should be in penske's shop.. I appreciate that no-one has yet been able to come up with an explanation for the Fisher car being documented in canada during this period... maybe we never will?... The perplexing issue is that there is a lot of info about Fishers car being a "camarobird" and we both have documentation from Fisher 10+ years ago when he talks about such a car.. even down to welding-in the fake gills.. and suggestions of the PMD connection still being whispered in high places.. I have to confess that these are bits of the jigsaw that done match perfectly.. but strange that Fisher "used" to remember driving a fake firebird 10 + years ago but now seems less sure.. and roll cages coming out of one car..into another.. then being cut out and swopped back again.. Would make a great conspiracy theory wouldn't it?! :-) ..

[Aero Z-28]

It was definitely not Fisher's original '67 which became the '68 Sebring T/A class winner under Penske-Godsall Racing sponsorship.

Hi Jon,
Surely the "not" in the above line should not be there. It was the same car wasn't it ?

Bruce.

Bruce, I edited my post and hopefully I made myself clearer. -Jon

[Aero Z-28]

Jeff,

Too long indeed! With regard to Pat Ryan's car, which has Fisher's VIN on it... Roy Gane has looked at the car and said he recognizes his work, especially on parts of the roll cage. When Pat told him the car had Fisher's VIN on it, he did not find that odd in any way. If he built a car from a body-in-white, wouldn't a car with Fisher's VIN on it raise some serious suspicions in Roy's mind? Fisher joined the Penske team in early August in time for the Marlboro race and then one month later the "lightweight" 2nd Penske Camaro makes its debut. It would make sense to modify an existing car if you're under time constraints to field a second car for the West Coast T/A events rather than build a new one from scratch. I don't know what Dewar's Camaro is although I grant that it has a very similar look to Fisher's Camaro except for color, a tinted windshield rather than the untinted one in Craig's original, and a stance that is not as low.

Fisher does talk about converting a Camaro into a Firebird but I believe that he is recalling turning Ward's Camaro into a Firebird and not the Penske Camaro into a Firebird. This all happened during 1968 so his recollection could easily be off by several months. We're not talking years. You and I have both seen pictures of Francois Favreau's Camaro in late '68 and it definitely matches the '68 Sebring winner, rollcage design and all. We have seen pics with the door wide open. It is easy to make the call. And this car is very easily traceable via chain of ownership to the car which Pat Ryan owns today. Fisher does recall adding gills to a Camaro and he does remember some repair work he did in the driver's floor area which he does not see on Pat's car. I venture to say he has looked at the wrong car. He needed to look at the Ward Camaro-bird. Unfortunately, not much original stuff is left on that one.

There are article that call Fisher's Firebird an ex-Penske Camaro-bird and articles that say Favreau has Fisher's Sebring car. You know which stance I take. I think the assumption has been made that Fisher's Firebird was an ex-Penske car based on two points. The first is that the upper part of the rollcage (the part seen in most pictures) looks very similar between the two cars. The second is because the car performed so well throughout the season that it had it just had to be a covered-up ex-Penske car in some people's minds. In reality, the two cages are not the same and the high finishes can be somewhat attributable to the absolute disaster that was the Ford racing program that year.

-Jon

[jeffBarley]

Jeff,

Too long indeed! With regard to Pat Ryan's car, which has Fisher's VIN on it... Roy Gane has looked at the car and said he recognizes his work, especially on parts of the roll cage. When Pat told him the car had Fisher's VIN on it, he did not find that odd in any way. If he built a car from a body-in-white, wouldn't a car with Fisher's VIN on it raise some serious suspicions in Roy's mind? Fisher joined the Penske team in early August in time for the Marlboro race and then one month later the "lightweight" 2nd Penske Camaro makes its debut. It would make sense to modify an existing car if you're under time constraints to field a second car for the West Coast T/A events rather than build a new one from scratch. I don't know what Dewar's Camaro is although I grant that it has a very similar look to Fisher's Camaro except for color, a tinted windshield rather than the untinted one in Craig's original, and a stance that is not as low.

Fisher does talk about converting a Camaro into a Firebird but I believe that he is recalling turning Ward's Camaro into a Firebird and not the Penske Camaro into a Firebird. This all happened during 1968 so his recollection could easily be off by several months. We're not talking years. You and I have both seen pictures of Francois Favreau's Camaro in late '68 and it definitely matches the '68 Sebring winner, rollcage design and all. We have seen pics with the door wide open. It is easy to make the call. And this car is very easily traceable via chain of ownership to the car which Pat Ryan owns today. Fisher does recall adding gills to a Camaro and he does remember some repair work he did in the driver's floor area which he does not see on Pat's car. I venture to say he has looked at the wrong car. He needed to look at the Ward Camaro-bird. Unfortunately, not much original stuff is left on that one.

There are article that call Fisher's Firebird an ex-Penske Camaro-bird and articles that say Favreau has Fisher's Sebring car. You know which stance I take. I think the assumption has been made that Fisher's Firebird was an ex-Penske car based on two points. The first is that the upper part of the rollcage (the part seen in most pictures) looks very similar between the two cars. The second is because the car performed so well throughout the season that it had it just had to be a covered-up ex-Penske car in some people's minds. In reality, the two cages are not the same and the high finishes can be somewhat attributable to the absolute disaster that was the Ford racing program that year.

-Jon

Hey Jon ! >> i'm going to "take the 5th" as far as Vin plates on cars are concerned :-) .. not the forum for making those sorts of comments.. :-) .. personally would be suprised if Fisher was talking about wards car.. i'm doing this from memory (so bear with me?) but did Fisher ever drive Wards car? have any contact with him?.. and we both have his (Fishers) notes about cutting in the dummy gills.. and didn't schwartz (spelling) do the body work on Wards car?.. thats my recollection of my conversation with him.. and he (schwartz)remembers piecing in the long strip along the top of the fenders to push out the fenders to accomodae the bigger tyres etc.

The jigsaw of how these cars hooked together and swopped ID's is pretty complicated and i doubt that anyone other than you or i have spent as much time on it as we have.. :-) .. what would REALLY hlep is if Fisher would come clean on just what WAS the car that Dewar has in canada in late '67.. I have heard the story from Dewars side (he was actually testing TWO cars that were supplied by Fisher (another story!) and I know why he didn't buy the car that we both know as the camaro with the filler and vent pipes positioned thro the panel immediatly below the rear screen.. (i would attach a picture if i could figure out how!) .. but i think you and i know which one we are talking about..I have called it the "twin Horn Car" the pictures we have of that car (in olive green from memory?) show door lights etc as would have been nec' at daytona etc.. what WAS that car.. and why won't Fisher refresh our memories?.. BTW.. the other camaro that Dewar was testing in the same period had a fuel filler through the LH rear fender.. ie thro the side.. Dewar prefered THAT car, and sent the other car (The twin horn car) back to Godsell.. ad although I disagree (respectfully!!) on your theory, I beleive I hvae figured out where that car went.. and yes.. its linked to what went to Dewar.. :-) :-) .. OMG.. we should write a book Jon!!

[Aero Z-28]

We can't write a book, Jeff. There wouldn't be any agreeable conclusion!

-Jon

[jeffBarley]

We can't write a book, Jeff. There wouldn't be any agreeable conclusion!

-Jon

HAAAAAAAAAAA!!... then we should write one each.. then my lawyer can talk to your lawyer whilst WE do lunch!!!

You take care Jon!!..

[aussierick]

Gentlemen,

I think I have found the jack pot with the knowledge base you guys seem to have. I have been trying to model the Fisher Pontiac for some time now and stumbled across these two photos. I cant quite make out the sponsor logos on the front and rear quarter panels. There is a logo below Gagnon Spring on top of the wheel arch. Any idea what it might be? Similarly on the front quarter panel behind and in front of the wheel arch. What are they? Any help would be most welcome.

I assume that this car was sold to Dick Brown in 69? Any photos of that car would be most welcome as well. Does that look like a factory standard yellow? If so what is it?

cheers
rick

[Ol'_Motorhead]

"I cant quite make out the sponsor logos on the front and rear quarter panels. There is a logo below Gagnon Spring on top of the wheel arch. Any idea what it might be? Similarly on the front quarter panel behind and in front of the wheel arch. What are they? Any help would be most welcome".


The front 1/4 panel one looks to be Koni Shocks (oops, excuse me - dampers). The one above the rear wheel well might be Goodyear tires (tyres?) with their typical diamond logo.
HTH.

Rob

[Aero Z-28]

It says Gagnon Spring Inc on the rear quarter with Montreal in script writing underneath that. The "Inc" is stacked vertically and has a small rectangle under the "c". On the front fender behind the tire are a Champion sticker and a Firestone sticker. I have not noticed a sticker being placed at the front of the fender. I'm wondering if it is a mark rather than a sticker. Hard to tell in the photo provided.

The color yellow is not a stock Pontiac color.

-Jon

[Bruce302]

It says Gagnon Spring Inc on the rear quarter with Montreal in script writing underneath that. The "Inc" is stacked vertically and has a small rectangle under the "c". On the front fender behind the tire are a Champion sticker and a Firestone sticker. I have not noticed a sticker being placed at the front of the fender. I'm wondering if it is a mark rather than a sticker. Hard to tell in the photo provided.

The color yellow is not a stock Pontiac color.

-Jon

In a later shot you can you can see the TG Racing decal on the front fender. The decal is arrow shaped.
I will dig out the copy I have.

Bruce

[Bruce302]

The small arrow shape decal up near the front of the fender is the "TG Racing" one. TG forms the 'head' and the word racing is the 'shaft'

Jon, can you remind us what the one under the 'Firebird' badge is.

Bruce.

[Aero Z-28]

Bruce,

It looks like it says Lake or Lane with a Chevy Bowtie outline around it. The Firebird is Chevy powered but Al Bartz was the engine builder so I am at a loss for an explanation of the decal. I know Terry Godsall owned Lake Technical Services but I don't think this decal has anything to do with that. Maybe I'm wrong?

-Jon

[Bruce302]

Bruce,

It looks like it says Lake or Lane with a Chevy Bowtie outline around it. The Firebird is Chevy powered but Al Bartz was the engine builder so I am at a loss for an explanation of the decal. I know Terry Godsall owned Lake Technical Services but I don't think this decal has anything to do with that. Maybe I'm wrong?

-Jon

It sure look like that Jon. I think I have seen something similar but I can't recall where ot when.

Bruce.

[aussierick]

Thank you gentlemen, you are a wealth of information.

Bruce,

On the picture you have posted there is something in between the Champion and Firestone stickers. Is that just road splatter/grim or is that some sort of logo? There is also something in front of the Firebird lettering, what is that? Also running from front to back under the #77 is a line. Is this an optical illusion and just a fold line or is it actually a painted on stripe?

cheers
rick

[Bruce302]

Thank you gentlemen, you are a wealth of information.

Bruce,

On the picture you have posted there is something in between the Champion and Firestone stickers. Is that just road splatter/grim or is that some sort of logo? There is also something in front of the Firebird lettering, what is that? Also running from front to back under the #77 is a line. Is this an optical illusion and just a fold line or is it actually a painted on stripe?

cheers
rick

Hi Rick,

The mark between the Champion and Firestone decals looks like just a smudge. The item in front of the "Firebird" on the front fender is the factory Bird, the early "Head up, wings down" version.
The line at the bottom of the door and fenders I assume is the swage line that mirrors the 'shoulder' line to accentuate the ""coke bottle" styling.

Regards,
Bruce.

[eldougo]

Question No1..... Grim .

No 2.... Unsure what.

No 3.... Fold in body pressing.

[raceannouncer2003]

Gary Magwood has given me Terry Godsall's contact info. Send me a message if you are interested.

Vince H.

[moontrash]

Gary Magwood has given me Terry Godsall's contact info. Send me a message if you are interested.

Vince H.

Hi Guys

I was parts manager for Lake Chevrolet Olsdsmobile Inc--a chevy dealer owned by Terry Godsall and Elio Sasso in Hudson Quebec about an hour west of Montrreal on the way to Ottawa (old hwy 17)

I remember when the Penske Camaro came to our shop in late 67 or early 68 as it sat right outside my office.
I did a lot of odds and ends for the race team when it was in Montreal North.This was pre-Titus time. A Tom Gretorex(sp?) from Shebly 's crew? was hired to work on the car as well as John Phillips.It had the neatest door race nuber--instead of one or two license plate lights illuminating the number it had a back lit panel that Penske got from Sylvania.It still had the Traco in it. Bartz built the blue Chevy engines with Competion Cams and Airresearch heads.The 69 birds had Canadian Dave Billus built long deck Pontiac 303's that were not that good.SCCA wouldn't allow them to usue the 303 short decks as they never made enough of them. I think they were used in the Nascar Pony car races.The 303 had large mains and put to much drag on the engines .

The stickers on the car were 1) yes the TG arrow early type as later the sticker was rectangular --blue and green/yellow--green was highlite yellow a euclid type colour I think. I have a new old stock arrow sticker and the rectangular one I have on my toolbox.

2) the other sticker was a Lake Chevrolet


I ordered in a body in white from Vince Piggens(Chevrolet God of trans- am race stuff ) in Detroilt that was made into a Firebird as well they took a brand new Firebird with a OHV six and guttted it into a race firebird.These were done at the Montreal shop in 68.


I was told the ex Penske car was the Gagnon car but can't verify that. We had the original firebird that was used for holmogation registrtation with SCCA that was built by Pontiac enginers with a z28 chevy in it.It was sold as a used car in Montreal area.
sorry I wasn't paying attention to the Gorries/Golden Mile Camaro or what car Gordie Dewar had.

I moved to Myers Chev in Ottawa but still did stuff for Terry--I used order the then trick Camaro distriutors and air freight them overnite to Jerry Titus in the Tarzana Califoria shop.

Bob Irvine

[Bruce302]

Hi Guys

I was parts manager for Lake Chevrolet Olsdsmobile Inc--a chevy dealer owned by Terry Godsall and Elio Sasso in Hudson Quebec about an hour west of Montrreal on the way to Ottawa (old hwy 17)

I remember when the Penske Camaro came to our shop in late 67 or early 68 as it sat right outside my office.
I did a lot of odds and ends for the race team when it was in Montreal North.This was pre-Titus time. A Tom Gretorex(sp?) from Shebly 's crew? was hired to work on the car as well as John Phillips.It had the neatest door race nuber--instead of one or two license plate lights illuminating the number it had a back lit panel that Penske got from Sylvania.It still had the Traco in it. Bartz built the blue Chevy engines with Competion Cams and Airresearch heads.The 69 birds had Canadian Dave Billus built long deck Pontiac 303's that were not that good.SCCA wouldn't allow them to usue the 303 short decks as they never made enough of them. I think they were used in the Nascar Pony car races.The 303 had large mains and put to much drag on the engines .

The stickers on the car were 1) yes the TG arrow early type as later the sticker was rectangular --blue and green/yellow--green was highlite yellow a euclid type colour I think. I have a new old stock arrow sticker and the rectangular one I have on my toolbox.

2) the other sticker was a Lake Chevrolet


I ordered in a body in white from Vince Piggens(Chevrolet God of trans- am race stuff ) in Detroilt that was made into a Firebird as well they took a brand new Firebird with a OHV six and guttted it into a race firebird.These were done at the Montreal shop in 68.


I was told the ex Penske car was the Gagnon car but can't verify that. We had the original firebird that was used for holmogation registrtation with SCCA that was built by Pontiac enginers with a z28 chevy in it.It was sold as a used car in Montreal area.
sorry I wasn't paying attention to the Gorries/Golden Mile Camaro or what car Gordie Dewar had.

I moved to Myers Chev in Ottawa but still did stuff for Terry--I used order the then trick Camaro distriutors and air freight them overnite to Jerry Titus in the Tarzana Califoria shop.

Bob Irvine

Hello Bob,

Thanks for the great reply and fresh information. It sounds like you were right in the midst of the action at the shop.

I have PM'd you.

Regards,
Bruce.