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2010 Silly Season (merged)


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#5651 alecc

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 23:51

I would have a tough time calling Button a secondary driver - the guy did bring home a WDC this year. Vettel, in a car that was better for more than half the races, couldn't match him. And Massa came as close as possible to a WDC as you can without winning it, which puts him above the likes of Rosberg for sure unless Nico shows a lot this season.


So... you say that Vettel is overrated?
Hmm... :up: :)

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#5652 r4mses

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 00:00

Even though I don't like it, imo Ferrari still has the strongest lineup.

Ferrari > McLaren ~ Mercedes ~ Red Bull > rest. imho.

#5653 tkulla

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 00:19

So... you say that Vettel is overrated?
Hmm... :up: :)


No, I think Vettel is very, very good. But is he better than Button, right now? No, he's not. If he was then he'd be the WDC.

My point is that Button has to be considered top tier by any reasonable standard. To me, a top tier driver is one that will bring home the WDC if given a car capable of that. Button has done so. Any criticism of his style or personality or anything else is fanboyism (or anti-fanboyism) as far as I'm concerned.

Back to Vettel... I'm very curious to see how he does next year. I expect a healthy Mark Webber to be a greater challenge than he was this year, and if we all get our dream of four roughly equal teams (okay, some people would prefer that "their" team walk it, but I'm not one of those) we'll get a very good test of his racecraft and how much he's matured in 2009.

In the top four teams, I expect:

Hamilton vs. Button - Could go either way depending on circumstance (car quality, etc), but if I had to bet I'd say Lewis by a nose.

Alonso vs. Massa - Fernando surely learned the importance of getting the team behind him at Mac - I expect him to rattle Massa and beat him by a decent margin.

Vettel vs. Webber - A bit like this year, except Mark getting closer in qualifying.

Schumi vs. Rosberg - Tough to call because we don't know if MS will be as he was, and Rosberg is still something of an unknown quantity. I'll take Michael here by a good margin though.





#5654 De Jokke

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 01:26

I'd flip that list upside down, because I'm figuring Schumi won't quite be what he was and Rosberg is the weakest driver mentioned. Actually, I'd put Vettel/Webber just ahead of the Mercedes pair too.


I don't get it why people rate button so high. Come on guys, it's button we're talking about...

#5655 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 01:31

I don't get it why people rate button so high. Come on guys, it's button we're talking about...

When you say "Button", you mean the guy who won six races and scored points in every race he finished (and probably would have scored some at Spa if not for Grosjean), right?

#5656 aditya-now

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 02:35

2009 would be Raikkonen's last season according to some here... crazy.


This one, then the fact that no one predicted Rubens to be on the grid for 2010, let alone as number 1 driver, and the return of Schumi are but some of the gems in the early parts of this thread.

Thanks lustigson, this thread was visionary. And thank you, by the way, for the "Encounter Down Under", I am looking forward to the concluding chapters....

Edited by aditya-now, 25 December 2009 - 02:37.


#5657 De Jokke

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 02:43

When you say "Button", you mean the guy who won six races and scored points in every race he finished (and probably would have scored some at Spa if not for Grosjean), right?


When I say button, then I mean: the guy who won 6 races thanks to his teammate who had to give him the setup. But when barri stopped doing that, it was game over for button: no race wins anymore and very bad races from him. Not seen until the last two races which were mediocre + he got even slapped by rookie kobayashi twice (once at brazil, once at abu dhabi). That's the button I mean yah!

#5658 SchuOz

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 03:15

Strange rumors on the Polish press say that we might not only have one Schumacher back in 2010 but 2, as Ralf might be heading into Renault's 2nd seat. :eek:


I read that also..Ralf talking to Renault.

Heidfeld will obviously be in the Sauber...


#5659 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 03:26

When I say button, then I mean: the guy who won 6 races thanks to his teammate who had to give him the setup. But when barri stopped doing that, it was game over for button: no race wins anymore and very bad races from him. Not seen until the last two races which were mediocre + he got even slapped by rookie kobayashi twice (once at brazil, once at abu dhabi). That's the button I mean yah!

What do you mean "slapped by Kobayashi"? Kobayashi had low fuel and good tryes in Abu Dhabi while Button was heavy and running on cold rubber. And on the lap he got past Kobayashi in Brazil, Button got a three-and-a-half second lead.

If you watched the start of Valencia, you'd have seen that Button got squeezed at the start by Vettel and he had two choices: yield and lose a place or keep going and lose a front wing. As for the mid-sason slump in form, did you notice how it happend to both Brawn cars? The upgrade introduced for Silverstone worked against them. It you actually knew anything about Formula One, you would know that the teams are constantly upgrading their cars. They can't afford to stand still; to stand still is to die. But with next to no money, Brawn could barely upgrade their car. There's no way you could have missed that bit. Most teams built eight separate chassis throughout the year; Brawn could only build three: one for Button, one for Barrichello and a spare. Barrichello switched to the spae at Singapore, which means tha Button won the title in the single oldest car on the grid. By the end of the season, the Brawn was no longer the best car on the grid: McLaren and Red Bull had certainly passed them, while Ferrari had the upper hand on certain circuits like Suzuka.

And how was Button's Brazil race mediocre? He passed more drivers in one race than a lot of people passed all season. They might have been rookies, but Grosjean wasn't afraid to mix it up, and the last time they were in a similar situation, Grosjean had taken Button out. Yet Button made a move around the outside of Pininherino stick. When he took Buemi, he deliberately oversteered to scare the Swiss kid into backing off. As mentioned, he put three and a half seconds on Kobayashi in a single lap. And likewise Abu Dhabi - how was that mediocre when he finished on the podium and would have been a step higher if he'd gone left instead of right at the bottom of the cirucit on the final lap?

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#5660 William Hunt

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 04:02

The Belgian press was reporting today that Jerôme d'Ambrosio is very close to signing as 2nd driver for Renault.

They also mention that Baguette will almost certainly be 3rd driver of Sauber but that he still has a small chance for the 2nd seat.

Edited by William Hunt, 25 December 2009 - 04:09.


#5661 robracer

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 09:13

When I say button, then I mean: the guy who won 6 races thanks to his teammate who had to give him the setup. But when barri stopped doing that, it was game over for button: no race wins anymore and very bad races from him. Not seen until the last two races which were mediocre + he got even slapped by rookie kobayashi twice (once at brazil, once at abu dhabi). That's the button I mean yah!


So I suppose Jenson wouldn't have finished so high in the championship in 2004 without the help from the great Takuma Sato. :rotfl: :drunk:

#5662 alecc

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 09:44

When I say button, then I mean: the guy who won 6 races thanks to his teammate who had to give him the setup. But when barri stopped doing that, it was game over for button: no race wins anymore and very bad races from him. Not seen until the last two races which were mediocre + he got even slapped by rookie kobayashi twice (once at brazil, once at abu dhabi). That's the button I mean yah!


I seen pretty much various BS on this forum (from me either:)), but that is on the top. Button became in the half of season suddenly slower, because Rubens stopped giving him setups, and not because other teams with much much bigger budgets passed Brawn by in car updates. Kobayashi destroyed Button because he blocked him by weaving and overtaken him with a much lighter car.
Your logic is astonishing.

#5663 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 09:51

Your logic is astonishing.

The guy evidently doesn't like Button. He probablt thinks JB isn't a worthy champion becuase he didn't lead a lap - much less win a race - after Turkey, and has gone looking for reasons to justify his anti-Button stance. But here's the problem with that: it's a driver's results over an entire season that matter. Jenson Button not only had the most wins, but he was the only driver to score points in every race he finished. Lewis Hamilton didn't do that in 2008. Schumacher didn't even manage it in 2004, the year he dominated ...

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 25 December 2009 - 09:52.


#5664 De Jokke

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 10:53

Brawn caught by the other teams, nonsense: even the "great" ross brawn mentioned that money wasn't a problem at all.

Kobayashi made a fool of button twice, you can't blame it on a light car twice.

Ow yeah, last race, your great champion couldn't even pass mark webber who was struggling like hell.

Button admitted that he took a lot of profit from barri's setup. So if the man himself admits it.

What hami and schumi couldn't do: well simple to explain: if everyone else except rbr has built a crap car: well than it's quite easy to do so. That LUCK wasn't on hami or schumi's hands.

Now go back to your button chappel and start to pray, because he'll need it badly in 2010 if you look at the line-ups of mcl, fer, rbr and merc: he is the weakest link!

Edited by De Jokke, 25 December 2009 - 10:55.


#5665 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 11:41

You clearly think Button is an unworthy champion. Might I ask you who you think it better? Sebastian Vettel had more DNFs to his name than race wins in 2009. Rubens Barrichello was his own worst enemy, tripping over himself as often as not. Mark Webber simply failed to get any momentum going, swapping championship standings with Vettel all season long instead of mounting his own campaign. Lewis Hamilton was never in the hunt and threw away valuable point-scoring opportunities in Australia, Monaco, Germany and Italy through stupid mistakes (lying to stewards, pushing too hard in Q1, trying to win the race at the first corner and then trying to catch Button on the last lap when it wasn't possibe). And as for Kimi Raikkonen, well, he simply couldn't have been arsed all season long and it took Massa's injury to inspire him to step up to a leadership role in the team. Nobody even looked like making a case for themselves as a genuine title contender.

But Jenson Button had more race wins than anyone else. He scored more points than anyone else. He scored points in every race that he finished. He passed more people in Brazil than most drivers passed all season. He executed critical passes - like Hamilton in Bahrain - without fault. He constantly made strategies work, leap-frogging more people in pitstops than anyone else, even when they were changed at the last minute. He led the championship from start to finish. And he did all of that in the oldest car on the grid. Button didn't win his championship because the guy in front was on bad rubber going into the final corner of the race. In fact, he probably worked harder than anyone else - certainly harder than any champion in years - given that by the end of it, there were at least four guys who were in cars that were constantly better than his.

Brawn caught by the other teams, nonsense: even the "great" ross brawn mentioned that money wasn't a problem at all.

When did he admit that? And if it wasn't a problem, why did the team only ever build three cars instead of making more like the other teams did?

Kobayashi made a fool of button twice, you can't blame it on a light car twice.

No he didn't. He just started in front of Button in Brazil. When Button passed him, he put three and a half seconds on the Toyota driver in a single lap. How is that a case of Kobayashi making a fool of him? And the way I remember it, Button finished in front of Kobayashi in both races.

Ow yeah, last race, your great champion couldn't even pass mark webber who was struggling like hell.

What's your point? There have been plenty of times when one driver has been unable to pass another. Button went right; he figured that with Webber's tyres degrading, he'd be able to pass the Red Bull if he forced him off the racing line. Webber somehow pulled the car up in time to make the bend.

Button admitted that he took a lot of profit from barri's setup. So if the man himself admits it.

You think Button is the only person who uses his team-mate's data? When Hamilton made his debut in 2007, he was using Alonso's data. And it's not like Button just copy-and-pastes Barrichello's setup - he gets to a point where he is happy with what he has and then he looks at how Barrichello went. He then makes adjustments based on what Barrichello has come up with if he thinks they'll work for him.

What hami and schumi couldn't do: well simple to explain: if everyone else except rbr has built a crap car: well than it's quite easy to do so. That LUCK wasn't on hami or schumi's hands.

I said Hamilton and Schumacher couldn't score points in every race they finished in those two years, something that Button did. What does luck have to do with that?

Now go back to your button chappel and start to pray, because he'll need it badly in 2010 if you look at the line-ups of mcl, fer, rbr and merc: he is the weakest link!

I think Button will surprise you. Your dislike of him seems to stem from the fact that you think he lucked into a good car because of his 2007 and 2008 seasons when he had to drive one of the worst cars ever made. But I'll direct your attentions to 2004, when he was the highest-placed non-Ferrari driver. He has talent, but he's only ever been in a truly good car twice in ten years. Unlike some - such as Hamilton - who started their careers in one of the finest on the grid.

Also, how the hell is Button weaker than Rosberg? Mercedes might have Schumacher, but he's been out of the sport for three years and is hardly going to simply pick up where he left off, and Rosberg has never won a race.

Edited by Captain Tightpants, 25 December 2009 - 11:44.


#5666 P123

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 12:00

People have short memories- the last time Button had a decent car he finsihed 3rd in the championship and drove some excellent races. This year he had a championship winning car and won. What more can he do? He may not be quite in the same class as Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton but he's shown he's good enough to win a WDC. Weakest driver of those in the top 4 teams? Some people are in for a shock.

#5667 athlon

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 12:07

Button admitted that he took a lot of profit from barri's setup. So if the man himself admits it.


Great Schumacher took a lot of profit from Rubens' setup, too. :)

#5668 Phoenixx

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 14:46

:eek:

R Schumacher instead of Heidfeld!?

Well I guess they need to appeal to the German marke.... No both Germans you say. Letterman: "What!?"




Raflie and JVi seem more likely candidates for desperate teams like USF1 that need a well-known driver to be semi-credible. :up: :)


What team boss would choose a DTM backmarker instead of a driver who was consistently able to net similar points to Kubica?


You can´t compare F1 with DTM.
In F1 Ralf Schumacher was much more successful than Nick Heidfeld, who never won a GP in 9 F1 years. Also RSC isn´t too old with 34 years.
And nobody knows how the new F1 cars suits to Ralf Schumacher ...


#5669 Wouter

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 22:03

The Belgian press was reporting today that Jerôme d'Ambrosio is very close to signing as 2nd driver for Renault.

They also mention that Baguette will almost certainly be 3rd driver of Sauber but that he still has a small chance for the 2nd seat.

So who was been rumoured for the second Renault seat, so far?

D'Ambrosio looks to be a strong candidate due to his links with Genii (and his relatively strong performance in GP2 relative to teammate Kobayashi), apart from him at one point or another we have rumours for Petrov (with MegaFon backing, in that case), Ho Pin Tung (also a Genii driver and maybe commercially attractive), Heidfeld (seems the best driver available, at least out of the known quantities), Ralf Schumacher, Montagny and Grosjean. Did I miss anyone?

#5670 athlon

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 22:23

So who was been rumoured for the second Renault seat, so far?

D'Ambrosio looks to be a strong candidate due to his links with Genii (and his relatively strong performance in GP2 relative to teammate Kobayashi), apart from him at one point or another we have rumours for Petrov (with MegaFon backing, in that case), Ho Pin Tung (also a Genii driver and maybe commercially attractive), Heidfeld (seems the best driver available, at least out of the known quantities), Ralf Schumacher, Montagny and Grosjean. Did I miss anyone?


You should rule out Montagny.

#5671 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 22:28

You should rule out Montagny.

I don't think he's listing all of the viable prospects, just the names of the people who have been rumours for a drive.

#5672 Group B

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 22:39

Vettel, in a car that was better for more than half the races, couldn't match him.

The phrase 'economical with the truth' springs to mind  ;)



#5673 jack_rabbit

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 00:06

So who was been rumoured for the second Renault seat, so far?

D'Ambrosio looks to be a strong candidate due to his links with Genii (and his relatively strong performance in GP2 relative to teammate Kobayashi), apart from him at one point or another we have rumours for Petrov (with MegaFon backing, in that case), Ho Pin Tung (also a Genii driver and maybe commercially attractive), Heidfeld (seems the best driver available, at least out of the known quantities), Ralf Schumacher, Montagny and Grosjean. Did I miss anyone?


of course, Jacques Villeneuve WDC 1997

Edited by jack_rabbit, 26 December 2009 - 00:06.


#5674 Wheels23

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 01:39

Strange rumors on the Polish press say that we might not only have one Schumacher back in 2010 but 2, as Ralf might be heading into Renault's 2nd seat. :eek:


Oh god yes, we are getting closer to the grid of 2006, all we need now are Klien, Jacques and Nick Heidfeld but that would be interesting because I never heard anything about Ralf on both the F1 and the DTM front and he isn't that young and could make a difference and be good like he was with Jordan and Williams.

#5675 tkulla

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 02:05

The phrase 'economical with the truth' springs to mind ;)


Disagree? It's subjective, of course, but I just went race by race and counted 6 where the Brawn seemed to have a clear edge, 8 where the Red Bull did, and 3 that were too close to call. You could argue a few of those, I suppose, but my count is certainly reasonable.

#5676 Wouter

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 13:22

Disagree? It's subjective, of course, but I just went race by race and counted 6 where the Brawn seemed to have a clear edge, 8 where the Red Bull did, and 3 that were too close to call. You could argue a few of those, I suppose, but my count is certainly reasonable.

Arguably, Vettel lost the title in large part because of his collision with Kubica in Melbourne. He lost 3rd place there - and maybe Kubica could have passed even Button yet to take 2 more points off him - and also got a very punishing penalty for the next race. That's a lot of points gone.

#5677 Group B

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:34

Disagree? It's subjective, of course, but I just went race by race and counted 6 where the Brawn seemed to have a clear edge, 8 where the Red Bull did, and 3 that were too close to call. You could argue a few of those, I suppose, but my count is certainly reasonable.

To be fair I actually think JB deserved the title; he racked up wins when he had the best car and collected points well when he didn't. That said, I think it's a tad disingenuous to say 'Vettel couldn't match him': my instinct, shared I suspect with a good few others, is that SV is probably the more talented of the two but lost out through a combination of circumstance, inexperience and JB's solidity. Semantics, perhaps, but I'd rather say 'failed' than 'unable'.

#5678 race addicted

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 16:50

To be fair I actually think JB deserved the title; (....)


Good post.
....as usual.

#5679 Group B

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 17:58

Good post.
....as usual.

:blush: :kiss:

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#5680 Urawa

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 21:24

One of the new teams made Ralf an offer but he immediately rejected it :down: :(
BILD says his name is still discussed within STR/Renault.

http://www.bild.de/B...1-comeback.html

#5681 Phoenixx

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 21:32

Why not ?
He would be a better choice than de la Rosa or Klien :rolleyes:

#5682 noikeee

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 22:15

Why not ?
He would be a better choice than de la Rosa or Klien :rolleyes:


That is a fair point, and he probably wouldn't mind to be back in F1 since his attempt at DTM has been a failure.

#5683 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 23:28

So because he failed at one level of motorsport, he should come back to a higher level of competition?

Ralf Schumacher was the man who said he was the third-best driver on the grid ... and then proceeded to spnd most of the Monaco Grand Prix behind two Spykers.

#5684 Slowinfastout

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 00:15

Strangely enough, I think Ralf could possibly do the job in a competitive car, but for an aspiring team he's as useful as cancer..

He would just get bored, whinge and collect the paycheck..

#5685 Phoenixx

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 00:31

So because he failed at one level of motorsport, he should come back to a higher level of competition?

Ralf Schumacher was the man who said he was the third-best driver on the grid ... and then proceeded to spnd most of the Monaco Grand Prix behind two Spykers.


Every driver thinks he is the best on the grid - otherwise he shouldn´t be in F1.

Also Jarno Trulli spend most of the 07 Monaco GP behind two Spykers. The Toyota was horrible at that time ...

#5686 GhostR

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 00:35

So because he failed at one level of motorsport, he should come back to a higher level of competition?


Oh come on ... Touring and Open Wheel are very different disciplines. Success/Failure in one is pretty meaningless for the other. Indeed, history shows us that very frequently the best open-wheel drivers are poor in tin-tops, and the opposite also holds true.

He did good things with his Williams drive and deserved it at the time, compared to others on the grid. I wouldn't say that now, but his DTM results aren't the reason why. The reason why is because the general standard of drivers on the grid has increased, and to my mind Ralf's biggest weakness compared to his brother was that he didn't have the drive and discipline to push for perfection in everything, and therefore never reached his full potential (and never would have).

Edited by GhostR, 27 December 2009 - 00:38.


#5687 Phoenixx

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 00:37

Strangely enough, I think Ralf could possibly do the job in a competitive car, but for an aspiring team he's as useful as cancer..

He would just get bored, whinge and collect the paycheck..


Remember 1999, when he was in a midfield car, dominated his team colleague, scored some podiums and nearly a victory (Nurburgring)

I don´t think that he would come back for money at this time of his career ...

#5688 William Hunt

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 02:30

http://www.bild.de/B...1-comeback.html


That article claims that Ralf is also talking to Toro Rosso. I don't believe a word of it.

#5689 BRK

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 06:59

I think he's the third best driver on the grid and his comeback announcement is going to take the English by surprise.

#5690 Group B

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 09:20

So because he failed at one level of motorsport, he should come back to a higher level of competition?

Ralf Schumacher was the man who said he was the third-best driver on the grid ... and then proceeded to spnd most of the Monaco Grand Prix behind two Spykers.

I think Ralf gets rather too much flak. He was certainly no Michael, but when he got it right he was undoubtedly one of the fastest men on the grid he just let himself down in other elements.

#5691 robracer

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 10:42

I think he's the third best driver on the grid and his comeback announcement is going to take the English by surprise.


He isn't the third best driver if he comes back. Michael, Lewis, Alonso and Vettel are definately better than him and probably some others as well. I would like to see him back though, he is better than some others in 2010.

#5692 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 12:23

USF1 needs publicity, it would be bonus at STR (while the top team is winning races, STR media coverage is not so critical, but it would be nice).... 0 Schumachers to 2 !?

#5693 metz

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 16:00

I think Ralf gets rather too much flak. He was certainly no Michael, but when he got it right he was undoubtedly one of the fastest men on the grid he just let himself down in other elements.

This is correct... :up:
We have a lot of posters here that find it fashionable to trash Ralf without looking at his performance, which was often quite good.

#5694 patgaw

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 16:17

Every driver thinks he is the best on the grid - otherwise he shouldn´t be in F1.



no!
every driver want to become WDC one day, but not every driver says he is the best.

#5695 Anomnader

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 16:54

This is correct... :up:
We have a lot of posters here that find it fashionable to trash Ralf without looking at his performance, which was often quite good.


I found it unforgivable from Ralf that when he was driving in the Williams and MS in the Ferrari came up behind him he gave up without a fight.

#5696 Phoenixx

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 17:08

I found it unforgivable from Ralf that when he was driving in the Williams and MS in the Ferrari came up behind him he gave up without a fight.

But he could overtake him :eek:

#5697 peroa

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 18:30

This is correct... :up:
We have a lot of posters here that find it fashionable to trash Ralf without looking at his performance, which was often quite good.


Often good, but more often not good. He was in for the money. Especially the Toyota years.
Now compare this to Koba ...

#5698 bladesblood

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 18:57

no!
every driver want to become WDC one day, but not every driver says he is the best.



The post said thinks he is the best and I agree. Every driver must think and believe they are the best surely, otherwise whats the point ?
Whether they say it in public or not is immaterial

#5699 William Hunt

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:42

Why not ?
He would be a better choice than de la Rosa or Klien :rolleyes:


I think Klien would be faster as Ralf, Klien is underrated.

Edited by William Hunt, 28 December 2009 - 12:42.


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#5700 metz

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 19:02

I found it unforgivable from Ralf that when he was driving in the Williams and MS in the Ferrari came up behind him he gave up without a fight.

Ralf had 6 wins with that Williams. I doubt that others could have done much better.
I only recall once that he made it easy for Michael to pass.
It was after RS had just exited the pits (heavy, cold tyres) where he should have defended a bit more.
It was for position, if I recall.

Speaking of Ralf, AMuS reports that he is also itching to get back into F1.
He claims that he has had some firm offers but they were with new teams and this did not suit him.
He's still in the hunt.
Oh-my-gosh...(with NH and RS) that would be 7 German drivers on the grid... :eek: