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Kubica to Renault


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#151 Arion

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:13

How do you know that, evo?


I think he means their supercomputer Albert.



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#152 evo.x

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:15

How do you know that, evo?


oh, maybe because Nick and Robert have said that so many times? "We're bringing big update". "It didn't work..." and 2 weeks later "another update", "still not working"...
anyway, think what you want. I just hope Nick and Robert will end up in THE team that listens.

Edited by evo.x, 07 October 2009 - 15:15.


#153 evo.x

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:16

I think he means their supercomputer Albert.


no s#!t, really?


#154 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:18

And with no doubt a new paintscheme makes me think the r30 will be quite a different beast to the r29 both in substance and appearance. Technically though shouldn't it be called the R210?

You know what I'd do?

An RA107-esque job. I don't mean some evironmental campaign, but an intricate, detailed design. I'd make the whole thing look like raw carbon fibre - I know some parts have to be made in such a way that they'd look weird if raw, but you get the idea - with only a handful of sponsors. Someone like MegaFon as title sponsor (MegaFon Renault just has a certain ring to it), Total as secondary.

#155 Sakae

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:33

oh, maybe because Nick and Robert have said that so many times? "We're bringing big update". "It didn't work..." and 2 weeks later "another update", "still not working"...
anyway, think what you want. I just hope Nick and Robert will end up in THE team that listens.

Now hold on, evo. You have stated that driver's intput was, not required/ignored/or whatever...
If updates didn't work, that doesn't mean yet that driver's weren't consulted on the substance of the improvement. On the contrary; long time ago I seems to recall that one of the drivers was thanked for his input. Problem is that it wasn't important to me, so I just forgot about it. I do not want to sound trivial, but any team which ignores input from their drivers would be making a huge mistake, and to be frank, I don't think a such team exists in F1. They all have debriefing after race. Problem is, if there is no good technical feedback from the driver, then yeah, team needs to live without it, which is not easy, because the team designs a car without actually ever driving one. Think about it. That doesn't work.

#156 evo.x

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:38

Now hold on, evo. You have stated that driver's intput was, not required/ignored/or whatever...
If updates didn't work, that doesn't mean yet that driver's weren't consulted on the substance of the improvement. On the contrary; long time ago I seems to recall that one of the drivers was thanked for his input. Problem is that it wasn't important to me, so I just forgot about it. I do not want to sound trivial, but any team which ignores input from their drivers would be making a huge mistake, and to be frank, I don't think a such team exists in F1. They all have debriefing after race. Problem is, if there is no good technical feedback from the driver, then yeah, team needs to live without it, which is not easy, because the team designs a car without actually ever driving one. Think about it. That doesn't work.


well, you might have a point here.
I still think (as little as it is worth) that the truth lies somewhere in the "twilight zone" - between yours and my posts.


#157 Sakae

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 15:51

well, you might have a point here.
I still think (as little as it is worth) that the truth lies somewhere in the "twilight zone" - between yours and my posts.

Probably.

#158 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:01

James Allen seems to think the contract probably allows for Kubica to leave after 1 year to go to Ferrari or McLaren should such an opportunity present itself. If so then I think Kubica has covered his bases really well given it was not too long ago that BMW quit after all.

Well this really is a new era for Renault, the Kubica-Bell era, should be good methinks.

#159 Yellowmc

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:03

Renault do like to screw themselves in regards to their contracts then, hiring drivers on short-term contracts and leaving them open to leave.

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#160 Gemini

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:19

Let's rewind to December 1st, 2005. Kubica is given 4 hours in Renault bolid. Frank Montagny, regular Renault tester, is brought as well as a benchmark. At 09:00 it's almost freezing in Barcelona. Kubica heas problems in gettin to speed in very cold tyres. Yet before the 4 hours he was given are out he clocks laptime quicker than Montagny. On used tyres. He is given fresh tyres for last laps but there's oil left by other car in last sector so he has to abort the lap ansd is brought to pits. End of tests.

Couple days later in official Renault communicate quotes a test team chief engineer says that it was hard to get feeling of F1 car in the morning in very low temparatures, but at the end Kubica's laptime made all team personal eyebraws go up as they got really impressed with the time he set. Further info says the test was also impressed with driver's feedback they were hearing.

Later that year when Kubica makes a mark with Friday laptimes, Briatore says he regrets Renault did not move quick to sign him. He says it was not him who missed the boat but it's too late to cry. Unofficial story was that Briatore in his usual way put the condition for Kubica that he will become his manager. Kubica said that he wants to stay with Morelli and the talks stalled.

Given above history I think Kubica will fell most comfortable in Renault environment. Also it seems Renault team will give him a benefit of doubt and believe in him.

If Renault decided to stay in F1 after crashgate scandal, they are determined to make a 180 degrees different headlines next season. Also new leadership will make sure they can prove what they are worth. Lead by Rob Bell, a guys who was chief designer of one of the championship winning cars.

Considering choices Renault is best Kubica could choose.

#161 Ricardo F1

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:19

Says who???

I would like to see some proof behind this statement...

Does Ferrari have some special relationship with Bridgestone..what do You think?

Uh, Michelin and Renault co-designed the suspension. It wasn't exactly cloak and dagger.


#162 potmotr

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:24

A good deal for Kubica, logical step if BMW are withdrawing.

I rather think it is a sideways move, but at least he'll be top dog with a championship winning team.

How long is the contract?

#163 alecc

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:28

A good deal for Kubica, logical step if BMW are withdrawing.

I rather think it is a sideways move, but at least he'll be top dog with a championship winning team.

How long is the contract?


I heard that it is a 2-year contract with some options to left after 1-year if there is a offer in a car with better pace, but I don't know if it isn't only a rumour.


Let's rewind to December 1st, 2005. Kubica is given 4 hours in Renault bolid. Frank Montagny, regular Renault tester, is brought as well as a benchmark. At 09:00 it's almost freezing in Barcelona. Kubica heas problems in gettin to speed in very cold tyres. Yet before the 4 hours he was given are out he clocks laptime quicker than Montagny. On used tyres. He is given fresh tyres for last laps but there's oil left by other car in last sector so he has to abort the lap ansd is brought to pits. End of tests.

Couple days later in official Renault communicate quotes a test team chief engineer says that it was hard to get feeling of F1 car in the morning in very low temparatures, but at the end Kubica's laptime made all team personal eyebraws go up as they got really impressed with the time he set. Further info says the test was also impressed with driver's feedback they were hearing.

Later that year when Kubica makes a mark with Friday laptimes, Briatore says he regrets Renault did not move quick to sign him. He says it was not him who missed the boat but it's too late to cry. Unofficial story was that Briatore in his usual way put the condition for Kubica that he will become his manager. Kubica said that he wants to stay with Morelli and the talks stalled.

Given above history I think Kubica will fell most comfortable in Renault environment. Also it seems Renault team will give him a benefit of doubt and believe in him.

If Renault decided to stay in F1 after crashgate scandal, they are determined to make a 180 degrees different headlines next season. Also new leadership will make sure they can prove what they are worth. Lead by Rob Bell, a guys who was chief designer of one of the championship winning cars.

Considering choices Renault is best Kubica could choose.


Nice post :up:


#164 HP

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:35

Good for Kubica and Renault. Looking forward how this will play out.

Says who???

I would like to see some proof behind this statement...

It was reported years ago in the paid content part of the Autosport website. During the TMD discussions and even before with OPT.

OPT has been outlawed quickly, before Renault ever ran it in a race. OPT is a suspension design to which Michelin holds the patents. It comes from the fact that in turns tires do not have complete contact with the surface and thus lose traction. The idea of OPT is that the suspension would have helped to guarantee full contact during in a turn. But the suspension regulations disallowed OPT to start with. While TMD was a dubious case, OPT was clearly contrary to the existing regulation.

IMO Michelin then introduced OPT in a different, less controlled way, by making extremely soft tire walls. It was a less favorable solution, because it's less controlled. To understand watch a few pics of those Michelin tires deforming. While the main focus was put on the deformation of side walls and extended width, it was interesting that only few noticed that soft tire walls, would help tires to stay glued to the surface. Precisely what they tried to to with OPT. But it came at the price that Michelin tires were much heavier than the Bridgestone ones. My guess on weight is that the needed this to make the soft tire walls strong enough.

To be fair, it has been explained that Michelin invited all of their teams to use their technology. But only Renault used it. Not so suprising because they are both French companies. Michelin of course wanted all of their teams to utilize their technologies, to beat the Bridgestone/Ferrari combo.

As to close cooperation between tire manufacturer and teams, it was allowed before. It's arguable that it's better now with control tires. The good thing about it is that it makes tire development and testing much cheaper. On the contrary no research is going on in providing better and safer tires. And the worst about is that before tire manufacturers were suppliers to F1 teams.

Not anymore. Mosley saw to it that the FiA controls now what tire goes onto the cars. Bridegstone is now supplier of FiA. It was yet another step to dumb down F1 towards a spec series. I'm not against a single tire supplier, I actually was happy about a sole tire supplier, and still am, btw, But it'd be great if teams still could have their tailor made tires. Would that happen, we'd had at least seen a true RBR against Brawn fight. Because teams would have tires that work on their cars, as opposed to now, where it looks like hitting luck if tire work or not.

Anyway, back to your point there was nothing wrong how Michelin and Renault collaborated, same goes with Ferrari and Bridgestone, before F1 was put on control tires.

Edited by HP, 07 October 2009 - 16:39.


#165 potmotr

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:37

I heard that it is a 2-year contract with some options to left after 1-year if there is a offer in a car with better pace, but I don't know if it isn't only a rumour.


That should work for Kubica.

Show his worth them perhaps step up to the top tier.

I'm still not totally convinced.

I think he is really fast and aggressive but that he perhaps pushes teams too hard without doing his own bit behind the scenes.

Kind of like he expects an amazing car without working on it.

I also think he has way too many off weekends at BMW.

Still, I'd like to see the lad do well, he's as combative as Alonso.

#166 alecc

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:56

Based on this from "the paris":

THE RETURN OF THE MARK YELLOW.

To return to "the real values Renault>> The Diamond would use colors directly from its history in Grand Prix. The dress of the R30 would be a wink to the cars of the 1970s, focusing on yellow, black and white. The main sponsor ING will be replaced by a multiplicity of contracts.


I found this:
Posted Image

The colors, looks really, really good for me :-)

#167 potmotr

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:57

The colors, looks really, really good for me :-)


Yeah man. No sure how Kubica's red and black helmet would go with it, hopefully well.


#168 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:59

Aww yeah, I'd love a all yellow car, that's a bold look, lets everyone on the grid know to move out of the way a Renault is coming through;)

#169 Clatter

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 16:59

I heard that it is a 2-year contract with some options to left after 1-year if there is a offer in a car with better pace, but I don't know if it isn't only a rumour.


That would be a fairly standard deal.

#170 wingwalker

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 17:02

Posted Image

YES PLEASE!

Edited by wingwalker, 07 October 2009 - 17:03.


#171 Lukin83

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 17:06

Source: "The Paris>>

The description of the R30 nose, sounds for me like the one of BGP :)


That description fits Red Bull as well.


You know what I'd do?

An RA107-esque job. I don't mean some evironmental campaign, but an intricate, detailed design. I'd make the whole thing look like raw carbon fibre - I know some parts have to be made in such a way that they'd look weird if raw, but you get the idea - with only a handful of sponsors. Someone like MegaFon as title sponsor (MegaFon Renault just has a certain ring to it), Total as secondary.


I read MegaFon as Megan Fox :lol: I don't mind actually ;)

On a little bit more serious note: the return of the color black is an awesome news. This coud be the best looking car of the next season. I have to say Kubica has luck to be driving a nice looking cars - with an exception of the current one that is, although F1.09 is still nicer than RA29. Had Kubica joined Renault this season and drive that ugly thing I would probably stop cheering for him ;) The bad thing is that he has to return the staff car. Megane (damn, that's another Megan ;)) Coupe is levels below M6.

Edited by Lukin83, 07 October 2009 - 17:32.


#172 peroa

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 17:22

Later that year when Kubica makes a mark with Friday laptimes, Briatore says he regrets Renault did not move quick to sign him. He says it was not him who missed the boat but it's too late to cry. Unofficial story was that Briatore in his usual way put the condition for Kubica that he will become his manager. Kubica said that he wants to stay with Morelli and the talks stalled.


Well, he certainly isn't stupid.
Go Kubica!!!
:up:

#173 Music Man

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 17:36

We don't have to wait to see him in RF1 colors ;)
Posted Image

#174 OSX

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 17:41

A good deal for Kubica, logical step if BMW are withdrawing.

I rather think it is a sideways move, but at least he'll be top dog with a championship winning team.

How long is the contract?


I don't think there's been any mention about that yet but since Kubica was after a secure deal with promise of longtivity one would assume it's 2 years minimum with options.



#175 swiniodzik

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 18:01

Daniele Morelli (Kubica's manager): "The fundamental thing is that taking over the seat of the former WDC will help Robert to become a driver who is perceived as a potential WDC. Moreover, in the last ten years only three teams won titles and Renault is one of them."

"The announcement was delayed because of a technical formality. We needed an official BMW release as we had a contract until the end of the 2010 season, so couldn't sign with anybody else without terminating that old contract."

"Renault had the chance to quit the sport but decided to stay, now they'll try to get as good results as possible surely. Otherwise they wouldn't have approached a driver such as Robert. I hope we'll fight for titles here."

About whether the test in 2005 had any small influence on the team's decision now: "Not small, but a rather big one! I heard that about 80% of the people that were observing Robert's test back then are still working for the team. They remember that quite well and were determined to get him."

"Sometimes it's good to make a good first impression and then disappear for a time, only to make the other side's interest stronger, " Morelli ends with a joke.

source: f1.pl


-----


Doesn't say anything about the length of the contract, but talking about title hopes suggests it's more than one year, probably with some performance clauses.

#176 Gemini

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 18:23

that;s exactly what I tried to say with my post recalling 2005 test details

They had the data, they knew that Kubica made a wonder lap, that's why the commet about natural talent

Toyota was reported few months ago as not impressed and interested in Kubica. F*ck them and their last minute offer. They always treated their drivers like shit. This years prooves it.

Williams is great team. I love them. I love Frank and that bitter bastard Patrick. They are the old league. But can they really do the car without manufacturer support? Don't think so.

#177 WebBerK

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 18:52

Unofficial story was that Briatore in his usual way put the condition for Kubica that he will become his manager. Kubica said that he wants to stay with Morelli and the talks stalled.

Oh boy, if Nelsinho just had that kind of windom... :|

#178 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 18:54

Here was the James Allen quote bout contract length:

The Renault announcement says that Kubica will drive from the 2010 season onwards. That is rather vague and my hunch is that he may have done a one-year deal with options, because there are quite a few things which could happen in the driver market for 2011 and he will want to be in a position to capitalise if, for example Felipe Massa isn’t the same driver as he was before his accident or if Raikkonen goes to McLaren for just one year and then retires.

http://www.jamesalle...dence/#comments

So you know, pretty sure there is an out to Ferrari/McLaren etc when the time is right, I can easily see his mate Alonso setting something up in Ferrari, especially as Kubica was approached as the 09 Massa replacement driver anyway. And who knows, maybe Renault will be great next year and there will be no need to go anywhere.


#179 DePortago

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 18:56

Unfortunately for Kubica, Renault is not Ferrari or McLaren, not even Bmw. If the R30 isn´t a good car since the beginning, it´s going to be tough. When Alonso went to McLaren, he told Ron Dennis one of the reasons to leave Renault was that "McLaren knows how to improve a car". If a guy who has spent five years in a team, won 2 WC with them say so, I think it means something.

Look at McLaren this year. It´s amazing how they improved.

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#180 papa

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 19:31

Uh, Michelin and Renault co-designed the suspension. It wasn't exactly cloak and dagger.


What I know is that Michelin required totally different weight distribution...it was much more about weight distribution then suspension when it comes to tyres

even if it is true(still did not see it is) I do not see how other teams wouldn't catch up in developement of suspension...it is not that they got other tyres
they could test,simulate in wind tunnels with the same tyres...

Tyre manufacturer produces tyres of certain type and then teams try to understand them during testing,driving
I do not see how tyre manufacturer can give any info about suspension specification without testing the tyres without the whole car

and if Renault had some tyre advantage why they did not start winning immediately....if one understands tyres better then other,performance gains can be huge...

anyway...Ferrari uses Bridgestone

#181 T.N.

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 19:32

The colors, looks really, really good for me :-)


Yeah - I guess a new nick-name for Renaults - "a bee". Or maybe - "a hornet" ;)

#182 HMV

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 19:37

And who knows, maybe Renault will be great next year and there will be no need to go anywhere.


I think most drivers would give up a great Renault for a great Ferrari and day of the week. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because you just do things like that.

I mean, Ferrari. Is there anything more to say?

#183 papa

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 19:38

Good for Kubica and Renault. Looking forward how this will play out.

It was reported years ago in the paid content part of the Autosport website. During the TMD discussions and even before with OPT.

OPT has been outlawed quickly, before Renault ever ran it in a race. OPT is a suspension design to which Michelin holds the patents. It comes from the fact that in turns tires do not have complete contact with the surface and thus lose traction. The idea of OPT is that the suspension would have helped to guarantee full contact during in a turn. But the suspension regulations disallowed OPT to start with. While TMD was a dubious case, OPT was clearly contrary to the existing regulation.

IMO Michelin then introduced OPT in a different, less controlled way, by making extremely soft tire walls. It was a less favorable solution, because it's less controlled. To understand watch a few pics of those Michelin tires deforming. While the main focus was put on the deformation of side walls and extended width, it was interesting that only few noticed that soft tire walls, would help tires to stay glued to the surface. Precisely what they tried to to with OPT. But it came at the price that Michelin tires were much heavier than the Bridgestone ones. My guess on weight is that the needed this to make the soft tire walls strong enough.

To be fair, it has been explained that Michelin invited all of their teams to use their technology. But only Renault used it. Not so suprising because they are both French companies. Michelin of course wanted all of their teams to utilize their technologies, to beat the Bridgestone/Ferrari combo.

As to close cooperation between tire manufacturer and teams, it was allowed before. It's arguable that it's better now with control tires. The good thing about it is that it makes tire development and testing much cheaper. On the contrary no research is going on in providing better and safer tires. And the worst about is that before tire manufacturers were suppliers to F1 teams.

Not anymore. Mosley saw to it that the FiA controls now what tire goes onto the cars. Bridegstone is now supplier of FiA. It was yet another step to dumb down F1 towards a spec series. I'm not against a single tire supplier, I actually was happy about a sole tire supplier, and still am, btw, But it'd be great if teams still could have their tailor made tires. Would that happen, we'd had at least seen a true RBR against Brawn fight. Because teams would have tires that work on their cars, as opposed to now, where it looks like hitting luck if tire work or not.

Anyway, back to your point there was nothing wrong how Michelin and Renault collaborated, same goes with Ferrari and Bridgestone, before F1 was put on control tires.


Did not see this post before I wrote previous one

Thanks for an effort... :up:

It is important in my opinion (as in TMD case) OPT was not hidden technology and it was outlawed soon...


#184 JarnoA

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 20:27

Says who???

I would like to see some proof behind this statement...

Does Ferrari have some special relationship with Bridgestone..what do You think?


Says Bob Bell and Pat Symmonds. In an interview explaining Renault's fall from grace in Autosport Magazine last week, (or maybe the week before), they said that they were able to get Michelin to design tyres around their car rather than the other way round.

Ferrari previously enjoyed similar treatment from Bridgestone, (because they were the main customers and in a tyre war). Now we have control tyres, cars need to be designed around the tyre.

#185 swiniodzik

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 20:43

Unfortunately for Kubica, Renault is not Ferrari or McLaren, not even Bmw. If the R30 isn´t a good car since the beginning, it´s going to be tough.

I don't think anybody, including Kubica himself, is thinking that's an easy situation for him. He'll be 26 next year and surely is eager to drive a winning car as soon as possible. But of course with Ferrari and Red Bull filled, and McLaren and Brawn apparently not interested enough, he has to play with the cards he's given.

If Toyota and Williams were, as is being said, the other options possible, with such a close field as we have today it's a coin toss really as to which one of these three teams will be the most competitive. If Robert's instinct says 'Renault', let's see how this pans out.

#186 barteks

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 20:48

Let's rewind to December 1st, 2005. Kubica is given 4 hours in Renault bolid. Frank Montagny, regular Renault tester, is brought as well as a benchmark. At 09:00 it's almost freezing in Barcelona. Kubica heas problems in gettin to speed in very cold tyres. Yet before the 4 hours he was given are out he clocks laptime quicker than Montagny. On used tyres. He is given fresh tyres for last laps but there's oil left by other car in last sector so he has to abort the lap ansd is brought to pits. End of tests.

Couple days later in official Renault communicate quotes a test team chief engineer says that it was hard to get feeling of F1 car in the morning in very low temparatures, but at the end Kubica's laptime made all team personal eyebraws go up as they got really impressed with the time he set. Further info says the test was also impressed with driver's feedback they were hearing.

Later that year when Kubica makes a mark with Friday laptimes, Briatore says he regrets Renault did not move quick to sign him. He says it was not him who missed the boat but it's too late to cry. Unofficial story was that Briatore in his usual way put the condition for Kubica that he will become his manager. Kubica said that he wants to stay with Morelli and the talks stalled.

Given above history I think Kubica will fell most comfortable in Renault environment. Also it seems Renault team will give him a benefit of doubt and believe in him.

If Renault decided to stay in F1 after crashgate scandal, they are determined to make a 180 degrees different headlines next season. Also new leadership will make sure they can prove what they are worth. Lead by Rob Bell, a guys who was chief designer of one of the championship winning cars.

Considering choices Renault is best Kubica could choose.

Good post :)


#187 JarnoA

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 20:54

I don't think anybody, including Kubica himself, is thinking that's an easy situation for him. He'll be 26 next year and surely is eager to drive a winning car as soon as possible. But of course with Ferrari and Red Bull filled, and McLaren and Brawn apparently not interested enough, he has to play with the cards he's given.

If Toyota and Williams were, as is being said, the other options possible, with such a close field as we have today it's a coin toss really as to which one of these three teams will be the most competitive. If Robert's instinct says 'Renault', let's see how this pans out.


I think Alonso also had influence. There are very few real friendships between drivers off track, but Kubica and Alonso are an exception, (together with Hamilton and Sutil).

Fernando knows that McLaren and Ferrari are the place to be long term, but if they are not possible, Renault are the best. He would have given this advice to Kubica, and played up Kubica to Renault.



#188 metz

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 20:59

Robert to Renault was always the logical move.

Williams wants the Reno engine but may need to settle for the Cosworth.
Toyota is once again blaming the drivers for a shit car.

Renault has always had good aero. With the larger tanks next year, this will be key.

So, yes, his best choice... :up:

#189 barteks

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 21:07

Kubica reminds me more of Damon Hill, someone who isn't a 100% natural talent but achieves a lot by working really hard.


Team Principal, Bob Bell, commented: “We are very excited to have signed Robert with the Renault F1 Team starting next season. Ever since Robert made his Grand Prix debut in 2006, he has been on our radar as one of the most naturally talented drivers of his generation and he has delivered on that promise so it’s great to have secured him in one of our cars next season.

:wave:

Edited by barteks, 07 October 2009 - 21:07.


#190 David M. Kane

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 23:41

Good for Robert, glad he remembers who gave him his big break.

#191 senna da silva

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 00:25

Congrats to Robert, but why the long face?

#192 alecc

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 00:37

Unfortunately for Kubica, Renault is not Ferrari or McLaren, not even Bmw. If the R30 isn´t a good car since the beginning, it´s going to be tough. When Alonso went to McLaren, he told Ron Dennis one of the reasons to leave Renault was that "McLaren knows how to improve a car". If a guy who has spent five years in a team, won 2 WC with them say so, I think it means something.

Look at McLaren this year. It´s amazing how they improved.


But was this statement of Alonso about Renault, as a hole team, or about Briatore? I really don't know what to think about him (Briatore), he has superior moments in F1, but in the last few seasons? If anybody with more knowledge could clear up it for me, is the Briatore-ban good, or bad for Renault?

Positive (for Robs fans) things in the James Allen article:
( http://www.jamesalle...dence/#comments )

His manager, Daniele Morelli is a very smart man and has a good radar for F1 trends and developments.


He will be welcomed with open arms by the engineers who were not happy with Briatore for losing him in 2006 to BMW. Kubica’s first test was in a Renault, as a prize for winning the World Series by Renault. He went well, but Briatore delayed, so Morelli parlayed the Renault test into a test and then race seat with Sauber and BMW. Word had got out about how fast Kubica had been in the Renault test and when Morelli showed Sauber and Mario Theissen the data, Kubica was signed without even testing the BMW Sauber car!



#193 HP

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 04:39

It is important in my opinion (as in TMD case) OPT was not hidden technology and it was outlawed soon...

OT:
It wasn't hidden, it was purely mechancial, but it was against the current regulations.

IMO a proper discussion never happend. I can imagine though why that never was done. The assumption probably has been that this technology would have increased cornering speeds (IMO it would have made cornering safer as well). Since 94 there was an effort to have cornering speeds down. If that's sensible or not, that's very debatable. But to debate things with Mosley..

Actually I'd like to see OPT back, Kubica running the same car, with and without OPT, to have a clear understanding of the implications. That also would mean having Michelin back as well. I guess we'll have to be content with Kubica at Renault. For F1's sake, I hope Renault will be competetive next year.

#194 HP

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 04:57

If anybody with more knowledge could clear up it for me, is the Briatore-ban good, or bad for Renault?

That remains to be seen. In terms of image it should help. I for one was always a bit skeptical about Briatore being team boss and driver manager.

These were opposing interests. But with a driver like Alonso, being tied to Renault, it was short term bliss for Renault. The success made this problematic conflict of interest unimportant. But when the car wasn't good enough anymore for Alonso, it became a curse for Briatore and thus Renault.

IMO When Alonso went for McLaren, they could blame it on Fisi being not on Alonso's level (which he isn't). But when Alonso returned and Renault didn't find back to the success of 2005 & 2006, it started to show.


As it is, Renault has a good chance to find fresh ways to success. Briatore, Symonds and Alonso gone. It also depends how Kubica will develop as team leader and if they can find a decent team mate for him. The team mate issue was also a bit clouded with Briatore. egardless of Piquet Jrs. ability, I thought hiring him wasn't in the best interest of the team. Now that the conflict of interest is gone, they might be able to hire better drivers. Briatores influence in those decisions is gone. The danger without Briator however is that they might hire French drivers for the sake of being French.

#195 The Truth

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:23

Good for Kubica and Renault. Looking forward how this will play out.

It was reported years ago in the paid content part of the Autosport website. During the TMD discussions and even before with OPT.

OPT has been outlawed quickly, before Renault ever ran it in a race. OPT is a suspension design to which Michelin holds the patents. It comes from the fact that in turns tires do not have complete contact with the surface and thus lose traction. The idea of OPT is that the suspension would have helped to guarantee full contact during in a turn. But the suspension regulations disallowed OPT to start with. While TMD was a dubious case, OPT was clearly contrary to the existing regulation.

IMO Michelin then introduced OPT in a different, less controlled way, by making extremely soft tire walls. It was a less favorable solution, because it's less controlled. To understand watch a few pics of those Michelin tires deforming. While the main focus was put on the deformation of side walls and extended width, it was interesting that only few noticed that soft tire walls, would help tires to stay glued to the surface. Precisely what they tried to to with OPT. But it came at the price that Michelin tires were much heavier than the Bridgestone ones. My guess on weight is that the needed this to make the soft tire walls strong enough.

To be fair, it has been explained that Michelin invited all of their teams to use their technology. But only Renault used it. Not so suprising because they are both French companies. Michelin of course wanted all of their teams to utilize their technologies, to beat the Bridgestone/Ferrari combo.



I dont understand what technology renault used that the other teams didnt. Renault were the only michelin team to use the softer walled tyre??

#196 Clatter

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:27

I dont understand what technology renault used that the other teams didnt. Renault were the only michelin team to use the softer walled tyre??


They worked in partnership with Michelin to produce a car and tyre that were both designed to work with each other. The rest of the Michelin teams did not have this same input and had to make the car work with the tyre.

#197 The Truth

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:37

They worked in partnership with Michelin to produce a car and tyre that were both designed to work with each other. The rest of the Michelin teams did not have this same input and had to make the car work with the tyre.


Where is the evidence of that though? HP just said michelin produced a soft walled tyre, which all the teams used. What special treatment did Renault receive?

#198 Clatter

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:45

Where is the evidence of that though? HP just said michelin produced a soft walled tyre, which all the teams used. What special treatment did Renault receive?


There are quite a few articles still around about their relationship, and if you hunt long enough some of the origional stuff might still be available. Otherwise maybe it's a case that you needed to be following F1 during that period to understand the relationship that Renault had with Michelin, in the same way that Bridgestone and Ferrari worked together.

#199 The Truth

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:55

There are quite a few articles still around about their relationship, and if you hunt long enough some of the origional stuff might still be available. Otherwise maybe it's a case that you needed to be following F1 during that period to understand the relationship that Renault had with Michelin, in the same way that Bridgestone and Ferrari worked together.


Dont worry I watched F1 during that period and I do remember the allegations that you speak of being based on nothing more than Renault and Michelin being french =special working relationship. Thats not evidence of anything, so Im wondering if there has ever been an offical word from staff during that period to confirm the rumour? Surely it would not have been a secret and they would have spoken about the special relationship, unless you are suggesting conspiracy?

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#200 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:54

According to Spanish newspapers, Kubica's contract said to only be for 1 year, with an eye for a move to Ferrai afterwards:

Report - Kubica to Renault with an eye on Ferrari
http://www.motorspor...p...48419&FS=F1

Interesting article about Kubica, with some of his views on the recent politics in f1 etc:

http://www.thisislon...und-the-bend.do

Edited by CaptainJackSparrow, 08 October 2009 - 09:40.