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Kubica to Renault


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#251 alecc

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 21:48

Kubica nad Heidfeld were a great pair at BMW, why couldn't they be again at Renault?


Great pair? Kubica is a great driver, and Heidfeld either, but how I remember they pace, once Kubica had much faster times than Nick (first half 2008), and then the opposite (2007, last races of 2008), it seems, that the car fitted one driver, and the other not, and after updates, for the worse driver, the better one has much worse times. It seemed to impossible to make a car for both of them

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#252 swiniodzik

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 22:14

I dunno, it kinda seemed impossible somehow for BMW's engineers to make the car work optimally for both Nick and Robert at the same time, but maybe it was a team issue? As I mentioned, they didn't have such problems at McLaren when they had Alonso and Hamilton there with two opposite driving styles, did they?

#253 metz

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 23:33

We DO know that Heidfeld liked running with KERS and Kubica not.
The team even fitted one car with and the other without for some circuits.
In the end, they abandoned KERS for a car that was more to Robert's liking.
They are both great drivers. Nick a little smoother and Robert more on the edge.
Both are very consistent and flawless.
I don't see why a designer can't make a car for both, just different setups.
I rate drivers mostly by the number of errors they make.
And in that department, these two were the best on the grid. :up:

#254 Megan

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 00:01

We DO know that Heidfeld liked running with KERS and Kubica not.


Heidfeld liked running KERS... the BMW 2009 F1 car was built around KERS... and it was a big mistake of BMW team. :evil:



#255 metz

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 00:16

Surely you know the facts as to how many races were run with and how many without KERS.

#256 Gemini

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:00

The only one who had preferential treatment is Alonso and even in his case, the car updates he recieved does not explain the discrepancies in the respective times of himself and Piquet/Grosjean. Hamilton recieved early updates twice and one one of those occassions Kovalainen prefered the older parts. Hamilton receiving those updates dont equate to the time gaps he left Kovalainen trailing in his wake.



Jeez, why do you even mentione name Grosjean? What kind of point is that? The guy was not even strongeest in GP2. He got brought to F1 with NO TESTING and you consider him a measurement? Piquet? Hardly setting world on fire in GP2 and getting to F1 only through his famous name? Against double WDC and multi season driver? And you are looking to comparable balance between Kubica and Heidfeld who is still, after 4 years, 3 times more exzperienced than Kubica? Heidfeld who actually WAS a F3000 champion. And has experience in multiple f1 cars (many shit ones) What kind of balanced comparison is that? Why don't you look at Alonso vs Trulli in 2004*? Ws Alonso dominating Trulli in 2004? Untill the latter got fired not to bother Briatiore and his biggest asset?

*still with teamboss also Alonso manager

Hamilton. The biggest marketing treasure in F1 history. The hen that is laying golden egg for McLaren every second step he makes? They will throw everything behind him, as he earns them fortunes. Kovalainen was not hired to put Lewis out of balance. Quite contrary after turbulent 2007 McLaren lineup.

I fully agree that both Alonso and Hamilton are enormous talents and top of the top. But the measurement against teammates you are set for is flawed from very beginning.

Just take a deep breath a look again at your comparison: Heidfeld, Piquet and (oh boy...) Grosjean.

1. What did they achive prior to F1?
2. How many races they accumulated in F1?
3. What was their lead teammates relationship and history with their respective teams? And their teambosses who both (Flavio and Ron) invested their own money in their young drivers' carrers many years ago

You want comparison between Hamilton and Kubica? They drove only one race in same team (Macau 2004). Go here and check the stats of all sessions

http://forix.autospo...&...44081&c=132


1st timed
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.003 0.787 10 161.996
4 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.009 0.793 11 161.989


2nd timed
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.303 13 166.526
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.949 0.646 10 165.717

1st qually

1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.344 15 166.475
...
20 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'17.217 4.873 5 160.563


2nd qually
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.155 16 166.713
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.415 0.260 12 166.385


1st warm up
1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.904 4 165.773
.....
3 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'14.689 1.785 4 163.576


2nd warm up
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'11.485 9 167.562
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.102 0.617 6 166.780


Fastest race lap
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.215 9 165.386
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.869 0.654 8 164.578


Much between them, erhhh?

Edited by Gemini, 10 October 2009 - 02:17.


#257 mkay

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:26

Jeez, why do you even mentione name Grosjean? What kind of point is that? The guy was not even strongeest in GP2. He got brought to F1 with NO TESTING and you consider him a measurement? Piquet? Hardly setting world on fire in GP2 and getting to F1 only through his famous name? Against double WDC and multi season driver? And you are looking to comparable balance between Kubica and Heidfeld who is still, after 4 years, 3 times more exzperienced than Kubica? Heidfeld who actually WAS a F3000 champion. And has experience in multiple f1 cars (many shit ones) What kind of balanced comparison is that? Why don't you look at Alonso vs Trulli in 2004*? Ws Alonso dominating Trulli in 2004? Untill the latter got fired not to bother Briatiore and his biggest asset?

*still with teamboss also Alonso manager

Hamilton. The biggest marketing treasure in F1 history. The hen that is laying golden egg for McLaren every second step he makes? They will throw everything behind him, as he earns them fortunes. Kovalainen was not hired to put Lewis out of balance. Quite contrary after turbulent 2007 McLaren lineup.

I fully agree that both Alonso and Hamilton are enormous talents and top of the top. But the measurement against teammates you are set for is flawed from very beginning.

Just take a deep breath a look again at your comparison: Heidfeld, Piquet and (oh boy...) Grosjean.

1. What did they achive prior to F1?
2. How many races they accumulated in F1?
3. What was their lead teammates relationship and history with their respective teams? And their teambosses who both (Flavio and Ron) invested their own money in their young drivers' carrers many years ago

You want comparison between Hamilton and Kubica? They drove only one race in same team (Macau 2004). Go here and check the stats of all sessions

http://forix.autospo...&...44081&c=132


1st timed
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.003 0.787 10 161.996
4 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.009 0.793 11 161.989


2nd timed
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.303 13 166.526
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.949 0.646 10 165.717

1st qually

1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.344 15 166.475
...
20 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'17.217 4.873 5 160.563


2nd qually
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.155 16 166.713
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.415 0.260 12 166.385


1st warm up
1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.904 4 165.773
.....
3 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'14.689 1.785 4 163.576


2nd warm up
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'11.485 9 167.562
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.102 0.617 6 166.780


Fastest race lap
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.215 9 165.386
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.869 0.654 8 164.578


Much between them, erhhh?


All this data does not matter really much.

Kubica has good pace. He just was not able to dominate Heidfeld like Alonso has dominated his teammate and like Hamilton has dominated Heikki and has equaled Alonso.

Edited by mkay, 10 October 2009 - 02:29.


#258 Gemini

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:42

All this data does not matter really much.

Kubica has good pace. He just was not able to dominate Heidfeld like Alonso has dominated his teammate and like Hamilton has dominated Heikki and has equaled Alonso.


All right... I guess my arguments that Heidfeld is quite better and more experienced driver than Piquet/Grosjean/Kova just bounced from your perception of reality. I accept it with sadness.


#259 Dubz

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 03:06

Great move by both parties.

I'm expecting Hekki is gonna be back at Renault too, it's a toss-up between him and Nick, I'd still say the odds are in favor for Hekki.

Good luck to Kubica, he's a promising driver, gonna be a Vettel soon enough. I can see it.

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#260 alecc

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 03:15

All right... I guess my arguments that Heidfeld is quite better and more experienced driver than Piquet/Grosjean/Kova just bounced from your perception of reality. I accept it with sadness.


And your earlier post: :up: :up: :up: really nice

#261 Walsingham

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 05:58

Jeez, why do you even mentione name Grosjean? What kind of point is that? The guy was not even strongeest in GP2. He got brought to F1 with NO TESTING and you consider him a measurement? Piquet? Hardly setting world on fire in GP2 and getting to F1 only through his famous name? Against double WDC and multi season driver? And you are looking to comparable balance between Kubica and Heidfeld who is still, after 4 years, 3 times more exzperienced than Kubica? Heidfeld who actually WAS a F3000 champion. And has experience in multiple f1 cars (many shit ones) What kind of balanced comparison is that? Why don't you look at Alonso vs Trulli in 2004*? Ws Alonso dominating Trulli in 2004? Untill the latter got fired not to bother Briatiore and his biggest asset?

*still with teamboss also Alonso manager

Hamilton. The biggest marketing treasure in F1 history. The hen that is laying golden egg for McLaren every second step he makes? They will throw everything behind him, as he earns them fortunes. Kovalainen was not hired to put Lewis out of balance. Quite contrary after turbulent 2007 McLaren lineup.

I fully agree that both Alonso and Hamilton are enormous talents and top of the top. But the measurement against teammates you are set for is flawed from very beginning.

Just take a deep breath a look again at your comparison: Heidfeld, Piquet and (oh boy...) Grosjean.

1. What did they achive prior to F1?
2. How many races they accumulated in F1?
3. What was their lead teammates relationship and history with their respective teams? And their teambosses who both (Flavio and Ron) invested their own money in their young drivers' carrers many years ago

You want comparison between Hamilton and Kubica? They drove only one race in same team (Macau 2004). Go here and check the stats of all sessions

http://forix.autospo...&...44081&c=132


1st timed
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.003 0.787 10 161.996
4 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'16.009 0.793 11 161.989


2nd timed
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.303 13 166.526
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.949 0.646 10 165.717

1st qually

1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.344 15 166.475
...
20 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'17.217 4.873 5 160.563


2nd qually
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.155 16 166.713
2 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.415 0.260 12 166.385


1st warm up
1 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.904 4 165.773
.....
3 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'14.689 1.785 4 163.576


2nd warm up
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'11.485 9 167.562
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'12.102 0.617 6 166.780


Fastest race lap
1 22 Robert Kubica Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.215 9 165.386
....
3 21 Lewis Hamilton Dallara/Mercedes 2'13.869 0.654 8 164.578


Much between them, erhhh?



Thanks for this data Gemm :up:


#262 Galko877

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 09:49

I still think Kubica is somewhat overrated and overhyped. Let's see what he can do with Renault.

#263 barteks

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 13:51

I hope it's not Heidfeld.
If Heidfeld beats Kubica again at Renault, it would be 4 out of 5 years.
That might be the end of Robert's career. :(

:rotfl:

Edited by barteks, 10 October 2009 - 13:52.


#264 patgaw

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 14:30

I hope it's not Heidfeld.
If Heidfeld beats Kubica again at Renault, it would be 4 out of 5 years.
That might be the end of Robert's career. :(



Robert's career [`]









:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

#265 mkay

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 15:58

All right... I guess my arguments that Heidfeld is quite better and more experienced driver than Piquet/Grosjean/Kova just bounced from your perception of reality. I accept it with sadness.


Oh, and BTW, Lewis won one of the races, IN FRONT of Kubica.

So, there you go.

#266 Gemini

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 18:19

Oh, and BTW, Lewis won one of the races, IN FRONT of Kubica.

So, there you go.



Hard to guess what race you are talking about...
Could you be more specific?

#267 mkay

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 20:17

Macau GP.

#268 barteks

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 20:38

Macau GP.

2004 was the only GP when they both competed in Macau and were team-mates. Kubica finished 2nd and Hamilton was 14th.

#269 BMW_F1

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 20:38

Piquet? Hardly setting world on fire in GP2 and getting to F1 only through his famous name?

check again.. Piquet took the fight to the GP2 title till the last race of the season. He also had like 7 poles .. It was definitely not because of his name..In the last few years we have seen not only the GP2 champion enter F1 but also those who compete for the title or at least win some races. .. Kova(2nd)/Speed(4th)/Grosjean(4th)/Buemi(6th) etc

#270 mkay

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 22:21

2004 was the only GP when they both competed in Macau and were team-mates. Kubica finished 2nd and Hamilton was 14th.


Huh?

http://www.macau.gra...b....php&id=973

As for the race you are referring to, Hamilton was in front with Rosberg, and crashed out with him (they were both LEADING).

Edited by mkay, 10 October 2009 - 22:22.


#271 alecc

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 22:44

after http://www.tomorrown...-de-kubica-8185

-his contract is for 2 years with a option to one additional year, 8,5 mln € per season, that we knew but:
-he can after 1 year break the contract if renault will not be in the first 3 teams of WCC in the 2010 season, pretty contrivance.

#272 mkay

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 06:42

after http://www.tomorrown...-de-kubica-8185

-his contract is for 2 years with a option to one additional year, 8,5 mln € per season, that we knew but:
-he can after 1 year break the contract if renault will not be in the first 3 teams of WCC in the 2010 season, pretty contrivance.


Obviously. He still want the Ferrari seat, but I doubt he'll get it though. So, he will probably stick with the team for 2011.

#273 barteks

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 08:12

Huh?

http://www.macau.gra...b....php&id=973

As for the race you are referring to, Hamilton was in front with Rosberg, and crashed out with him (they were both LEADING).

The link leads to quali results not the race. And it's only feature race that counts.

Edited by barteks, 11 October 2009 - 08:12.


#274 mkay

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 14:39

The link leads to quali results not the race. And it's only feature race that counts.


To be honest... so what?

#275 HMV

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 15:01

Obviously. He still want the Ferrari seat, but I doubt he'll get it though. So, he will probably stick with the team for 2011.


There's Macca too. Who knows what the crazy Fin comes up with...

#276 mkay

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 15:16

There's Macca too. Who knows what the crazy Fin comes up with...


He hates McLaren/Hamilton with a passion. I doubt he'll go there even they target him, which anyway they won't, as we can see right now (they haven't talked or shown interest in Kubica).

#277 siberianlady

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 15:24

He hates McLaren/Hamilton with a passion. I doubt he'll go there even they target him, which anyway they won't, as we can see right now (they haven't talked or shown interest in Kubica).

Hardly surprising considering Fonz is Robert's best mate.........
Also it seems like Glock is going to Renault (watch this space)

#278 barteks

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 15:42

To be honest... so what?

Nobody cares about quali race...

#279 mkay

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 15:48

Nobody cares about quali race...


Nobody cares about a bogus, meaningless GP that occurred 5 years ago.

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#280 barteks

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 16:08

Bogus? :lol:

#281 motoman2100

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:19

Nobody cares about a bogus, meaningless GP that occurred 5 years ago.


I think all that Gemini is trying to say is that the one time that we are able to compare Kubica to a driver that most ppl hold in a very high regard which would be Hamilton in this case, in which both drivers where on the same team, we see that Hamilton didnt realli take it to Kubica they where both very competitive with Kubica taking the cake in the final race. I hold Kubica in a high regard not just because i am a fellow country man but because you have ppl that are deeply involved with racing and most of them say that Kubica is a real talent, i hope he will deliver and put his critics to rest.

Vettel on the other hand is the one that has gotten off easy when it comes to criticism.

#282 Birelman

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:59

Based on this from "the paris":


I found this:
Posted Image

The colors, looks really, really good for me :-)


Wow, I hadn't seen that, that car looks amazing!!!

I kept wondering why Kubica signed with them,but if that's going to be the livery, I would have signed too!!!!!! :up:

#283 barteks

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 09:47

It's funny that this photo is circulating on the web for at least a couple of weeks (months?) already and still there are websites that discover it :p

#284 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 10:15

Not understanding the love for the 30th Anniersary livery, myself. It's too busy; there's too much going on. At best, it's only a step above their current arrangement. If they gor rid of those thin black bars and just made the whole thing solid black, it would look better.

#285 barteks

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:13

Q. It was recently announced that Robert Kubica will drive for Renault in 2010. What has convinced you that he is the man to fulfil Renault's high ambitions for the future?

Bob Bell: First and foremost he's a very quick and consistent driver who has clearly demonstrated his ability. He's also a real fighter who never gives up, which is a characteristic that fits well with our approach at Renault. Looking to the future, he is definitely somebody who is going to push the team and his hunger for success and leadership qualities on the racetrack will help motivate the team. Finally, on a personal level he is a genuinely nice guy who I believe will work well with our engineers and have a good relationship with the team.

#286 Sakae

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:16

I wonder if Bob Bell drinks a lot.

Edited by MiPe, 12 October 2009 - 14:17.


#287 evo.x

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:41

I wonder if Bob Bell drinks a lot.


do you?
(I do.)


#288 Walsingham

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:50

I wonder if Bob Bell drinks a lot.



Everyone who has different opinion than you must be either drunk or stupid.

#289 stonebutter

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:53

I hope it's not Heidfeld.
If Heidfeld beats Kubica again at Renault, it would be 4 out of 5 years.
That might be the end of Robert's career. :(


:lol: I guess thats why everybody is banging down heidfeld's door to drive for them next year.

Teams unlike fanboys make their decisions based on the performance and talent of a driver not numbers that hardly mean anything. Pathetic post dude.

#290 evo.x

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 14:53

Everyone who has different opinion than you must be either drunk or stupid.


this is MiPe's way of thinking, I'm afraid.


#291 stonebutter

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 15:02

I wonder if Bob Bell drinks a lot.


I wager your parents did prior to having you which would explain a whole lot. :drunk:

#292 One

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 15:07

Bell sound slike hitting the truth tho... :)

#293 Mauseri

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 15:09

Q. It was recently announced that Robert Kubica will drive for Renault in 2010. What has convinced you that he is the man to fulfil Renault's high ambitions for the future?

Bob Bell: First and foremost he's a very quick and consistent driver who has clearly demonstrated his ability. He's also a real fighter who never gives up, which is a characteristic that fits well with our approach at Renault. Looking to the future, he is definitely somebody who is going to push the team and his hunger for success and leadership qualities on the racetrack will help motivate the team. Finally, on a personal level he is a genuinely nice guy who I believe will work well with our engineers and have a good relationship with the team.

Clearly, they were looking for a moaner, and they got one.

#294 One

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 15:12

The fact that Renault signed Kubica DOES MEAN that Renault Stay on Formula One on 2010, am i correct?

I hope so, I mean,... teams with yet no engine deals are still waiting...

#295 Arion

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 15:29

Huh?

http://www.macau.gra...b....php&id=973

As for the race you are referring to, Hamilton was in front with Rosberg, and crashed out with him (they were both LEADING).




around 2:30, Nico binned it. :evil:

seriously, one race in a junior series 5 years ago really doesn't mean much in evaluating a driver.





#296 Gemini

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 17:02



around 2:30, Nico binned it. :evil:

seriously, one race in a junior series 5 years ago really doesn't mean much in evaluating a driver.


I agree, it's not enough. Although that particular event is the one that young drivers REALLY want to win.

I only brought it up to respond to suggestion that Kubica is in different leage than Hamilton.

Let's just wait and see what happens,.


#297 stonebutter

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 17:13

I only brought it up to respond to suggestion that Kubica is in different leage than Hamilton.


He is in a different league than hamilton - kubica has never had the best car on the grid.

Anybody thinks that comparing them based on their formula 1 careers is an idiot - you can't just discount the equipment they have. Its a waste of time.


#298 alecc

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 17:36

He is in a different league than hamilton - kubica has never had the best car on the grid.


How you would estimate the possibility that he will drive the best car on the grid in 2010?
I know, it is a silly question, but I'm curious how people on this bord "believe" in renault and their "reborn" after crash-gate, no-briatore etc.:)
For me - it's about 5% chance to make a good car for them, and I think its very optimistic thinking.


#299 stonebutter

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 20:36

How you would estimate the possibility that he will drive the best car on the grid in 2010?
I know, it is a silly question, but I'm curious how people on this bord "believe" in renault and their "reborn" after crash-gate, no-briatore etc.:)
For me - it's about 5% chance to make a good car for them, and I think its very optimistic thinking.


no chance he has the best car next year. It will be midfield fodder like it has been the past 2 seasons. The thing that worries me is that renault said about the 2009 car exactly what they said about the 2008 car. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the car - its just lacking pace. Which IMO basically means they're not really sure how to make it faster which does not bode well for 2010.

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#300 Walsingham

Walsingham
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Posted 12 October 2009 - 21:23

no chance he has the best car next year. It will be midfield fodder like it has been the past 2 seasons. The thing that worries me is that renault said about the 2009 car exactly what they said about the 2008 car. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the car - its just lacking pace. Which IMO basically means they're not really sure how to make it faster which does not bode well for 2010.



There is something called regression to mean, or as they say F1 is cycle sport. I could imagine that renault is now at the bottom of the cycle and the only way is up. I'm probably overoptimistic but I dont see a reason why renault couldnt be faster next year.