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1971 Brands Victory Race & the Siffert accident


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#151 alansart

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 08:10

Originally posted by Twin Window
I've come across a short film of the 1971 Victory race may well shed significant light as to the cause of damage to Siffert's BRM prior to his fatal accident; Siffert and Peterson both on the grass at speed - and for some distance - between Bottom Bend and Surtees during the first lap... There's also another car spinning - Hailwood? It could be that they'd had to take avoiding action.

You can see it here. I've never even heard a reference to this specific incident before, never mind seen it. All I've ever been aware of was 'contact at the start' between the two/Hailwood.


That link no longer works although I think this may be the same one. http://uk.youtube.co...feature=related

It also shows one of the BRM's was smoking or losing some sort of fluid - about 30 seconds into the clip.

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#152 ErleMin

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 11:52

We were standing at Bottom Bend and the same thing happened to us as described by Tony Kaye and Andrew Kitson in earlier Forum Entries. Pleased I couldn't see it. Was the not the Grand Prix Medical Unit created as a positive direct result of it?

#153 Vitesse2

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 12:10

Originally posted by ErleMin
We were standing at Bottom Bend and the same thing happened to us as described by Tony Kaye and Andrew Kitson in earlier Forum Entries. Pleased I couldn't see it. Was the not the Grand Prix Medical Unit created as a positive direct result of it?

No, the GPMU pre-dated Seppi's accident:

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=75381

#154 SEdward

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 13:53

Like Twinny, I have never seen this clip before and it is interesting. Firstly, it clearly shows that there was no contact between Siffert's BRM and another car at the start.

As for the off at Bottom Bend, one can only assume that it's Jo's car, because it is impossible to identify it clearly.

The smoking BRM is Gethin's car, which was in the lead at the time.

Edward

#155 John-w

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Posted 24 October 2008 - 15:12

Last year I have built Seppi's Brands Hatch BRM P160/02 in scale 1/20th.
This model has a special place in my showcase with all the other heroes
from the 60's and 70's.

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John-w

#156 SEdward

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 09:33

38 years ago on this day, we lost one of our finest.

RIP Seppi.

Edward

#157 Pullman99

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 11:28

38 years ago on this day, we lost one of our finest. RIP Seppi. Edward


I remember this day vividly. I posted a while ago on the victorious Ford Escort from the 1971 Victory Race Team Managers' race driven by Jack Brabham and team managed by Graham Hill which was at this year's Race Retro at Stoneleigh and it was slightly strange standing beside the car again over 37 years after being next to it at Brands. I think that Tim Parnell drove the "BRM" entry. I remember being in the pits and talking briefly with Seppi during the (very late in the afternoon) "qualifying" on the Saturday. He seemed greatly amused by the antics and asked to look at my race programme to see who was driving!

The whole weekend was bright and sunny. Seppi had qualified on pole of course, next to Peter Gethin. After my usual exploration of the Paddock, and seeing the cars head through the tunnel to the pits, I then watched most of the race meeting, including the Victory Race, from the small uncovered stand on the approach to Paddock Bend and I also remember that Mike Beuttler was sitting next to me. Like the comments mentioned in other posts earlier in this thread, I do recall the sheer silence of the circuit following the accident was total and descended like a cloud. I had never been to a race meeting prior to then where a driver had been killed (I was 18). Word quickly spread that it had been Seppi's car involved. Quite a long time later, an ambulance came round past the grandstands and exited into the Paddock via the ambulance gate next to us in the stand. Everyone stood up, perhaps not sure what to do or say. Later on, the cars were started up and driven back from the scene. I think that some were driven back by the mecahnics. Peter Gethin was declared the winner as the results were taken at the end of the previous lap. It should have been a great celebration but I don't think there was even a ceremony (correct me if I'm wrong). A marshall I knew told me that Gethin had come back through the tunnel in floods of tears.

The TV coverage, of course, I did not see eccept for news items later in the evening. Coverage of the Team Managers' Escort race was commentated by Barrie Gill, so presuambly, Raymond Baxter was introducing the overall coverage. Others will know whether he commentated on the Victory Race itself.

As to the wreck, I remember it being brought back on a recovery vehicle and put immediately into one of the Paddock garages, an operation supervised by Louis Stanley. Shortly afgterwards, I was in the Paddock office when Reine Wissell was on the 'phone relaying the grim news. I note that, again earlier in this thread, that there is some discussion that the wreck still exists in a private collectiuon. personally, although I am a supporter of the recovery of Bluebird K7, I do hope that this element of the Siffert BRM story is untrue.

Truly great drivers - and we ;lost the two finest 917 pilots within a few months of the same year - need to be remembered and long may this Forum continue to do that. For those of us who were at Brands that day, I am sure that this tragic event had a significant impact on our perception and understanding of motorsport.

Edited by Pullman99, 26 October 2009 - 07:42.


#158 autodelta58

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 21:21

I remember this day vividly. I posted a while ago on the victorious Ford Escort from the 1971 Victory Race Team Managers' race driven by Jack Brabham and team managed by Graham Hill which was at this year's Race Retro at Stoneleigh and it was slightly strange standing beside the car again over 37 years after being next to it at Brands. I think that Tim Parnell drove the "BRM" entry. I remember being in the pits and talking briefly with Seppi during the (very late in the afternoon) "qualifying" on the Saturday. He seemed greatly amused by the antics and asked to look at my race programme to see who was driving!

The whole weekend was bright and sunny. Seppi had qualified on pole of course, next to Peter Gethin. After my usual exploration of the Paddock, and seeing the cars head through the tunnel to the pits, I then watched most of the race meeting, including the Victory Race, from the small uncovered stand on the approach to Paddock Bend and I also remember that Mike Beuttler was sitting next to me. Like the comments mentioned in other posts earlier in this thread, I do recall the sheer silence of the curcuit following the accident was total and descended like a cloud. I had never been to a race meeting prior to then where a driver had been killed (I was 18). Word quickly spread that it had been Seppi's car involved. Quite a long time later, an ambulance came round past the grandstands and exited into the Paddock via the ambulance gate next to us in the stand. Everyone stood up, perhaps not sure what to do or say. Later on, the cars were started up and driven back from the scene. I think that some were driven back by the mecahnics. Peter Gethin was declared the winner as the results were taken at the end of the previous lap. It should have been a great celebration but I don't think there was even a ceremony (correct me if I'm wrong). A marshall I knew told me that Gethin had come back through the tunnel in floods of tears.
I
The TV coverage, of course, I did not see eccept for news items later in the evening. Coverage of the Team Managers' Escort race was commentated by Barrie Gill, so presuambly, Raymond Baxter was introducing the overall coverage. Others will know whether he commentated on the Victory Race itself.

As to the wreck, I remember it being brought back on a recovery vehicle and put immediately into one of the Paddock garages, an operation supervised by Louis Stanley. Shortly afgterwards, I was in the Paddock office when Reine Wissell was on the 'phone relaying the grim news. I note that, again earlier in this thread, that there is some discussion that the wreck still exists in a private collectiuon. personally, although I am a supporter of the recovery of Bluebird K7, I do hope that this element of the Siffert BRM story is untrue.

Truly great drivers - and we ;lost the two finest 917 pilots within a few months of the same year - need to be remembered and long may this Forum continue to do that. For those of us who were at Brands that day, I am sure that this tragic event had a significant impact on our perception and understanding of motorsport.

I too have vivid memories of this race as I witnessed the whole Jo Siffert accident from start to finish.I was spectating from the inside at Hawthorns bend when Jo's BRM arrived at Pilgrim's Drop on the fateful lap.The car turned sharp left in the compression which I would attribute to a suspension failure on the nearside rear as it happened so fast.The BRM then hit the left hand banking with great force and flew through the air before landing inverted on the outside of the track at Hawthorns.
A large free flowing fire immediately took hold fuelled by some 30-40 gallons of petrol.I remember the last car through Hawthorns being John Surtees,his car having sustained a puncture picked up on accident debris I assume.The heat from the fire could be felt from my position plus it was a very warm day for October.Loud bangs and sparks occurred which I believe was caused by tyres exploding and magnesium burning.The marshals present on the day made brave efforts to attempt to extinguish the blaze but were beaten by ineffective equipment.I believe the inquest stated that only one small extinguisher failed but I can remember a feeble dribble emanating from one bottle and the marshal hurling it aside in disgust.One marshal was wearing an asbestos suit[I read that two were present on the day-the other one was worn in the pit lane?]The remaining marshals were dressed in casual clothing as was pretty much the norm back then.The inferno was even too much for the man in the fire suit and allied to the poor extinguishers they didn't really stand much of a hope.
The remaining competitors had meanwhile come to a halt on the straight approaching the corner while fire fighting attempts continued.This was all happening in view of a BBC television camera as they were covering the event for I think I remember a one hour programme starting at 4.30 or 5pm.The fire seemed to go on for an eternity but finally fire tender[s] arrived and the blaze was out.The telephone at Hawthorns post was also malfunctioning which delayed assistance but I think we all know that nobody could last more than 30 seconds to a minute in such an inferno.I remember Jackie Stewart kicking debris from the track as he realised yet another tragedy had occurred.Looking down I saw a piece of the BRM's cockpit with the yellow windscreen sitting on the bank the other side of the fence.A sad reminder of what the burnt out remains previously were.The police arrived and took statements but I recall this being in a slightly ad hoc fashion although we must not lose sight of the fact that this was 38 years ago today.
My abiding memories from the day are of this terrible accident to a great driver who I had seen win in 1968 at the same track.Every year on this anniversary I remember those events and every time I am out on the Grand Prix circuit at Hawthorns I pause in reflection for a moment and spare a thought for Seppi as I am sure many of you do.In my opinion this accident could have happened anywhere back then and the results would probably have been the same.Safety has come such a long way since then thank god.
Getting back to the race itself,aside from the original footage on Youtube, another video was recently added which had a little more race action including Fred Saunders spinning out in the Crossle and Reine Wissell colliding with Henri Pescarolo at Druids.

#159 SRB

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 02:39

I too was at Brands Hatch on that day in October. We were standing at the exit of Druids and had a great view of the cars leaving the hairpin and dissapearing around Bottom Bend.

As has been mentioned a number of times on this thread the thing I remember most about that day was the terrible silence around the track after the cars had stopped coming round. Like a lot of others we initially did not know what had happened until we looked over behind us and saw the pall of black smoke.

A very sad day.

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#160 petestenning

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 18:53

Autodeltas recall is the same as mine as i was the yellow flag marshal at the post on the crest, the speed at which the car went left , no one would have stood a chance to control it .
Race control had rang our post to find out where the cars were, the plume of black smoke probably would answer that question i would have thought.


Pete

#161 cpbell

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Posted 25 October 2009 - 22:21

Autodelta's report pretty much confirms the awful truth in the reports from Stanley's book; poor organisation and equipment as was so often the case caused a bad accident in which the driver was injured to become a tragedy in which a much-loved driver perished. :cry:

#162 SEdward

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:21

I can't let it go by without writing something...

This year, 24 October was a Sunday, just like in 1971. And, at least where I live, it was a gloriously sunny autumn day, just like in 1971.

RIP Jo.
Edward

#163 sterling49

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:40

Remember it only too well................ :(

#164 pete53

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 14:14

I can't let it go by without writing something...

This year, 24 October was a Sunday, just like in 1971. And, at least where I live, it was a gloriously sunny autumn day, just like in 1971.

RIP Jo.
Edward

I don't know where you live Edward, but it was certainly fine here in Sussex. I know that in one way the weather on that sad occasion sinks into insignificance in relation to the gravity of what happened. However, the beautiful mellow autumn weather of that day gives an added poignancy to the memory. We have a sense that tragedy shouldn't intrude upon special moments, be it Christmas or a gloriously sunny day in Kent that was supposed to be a celebration.

I was at Brands that day and I remember it so clearly even though it is now 39 years past.



#165 petestenning

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 14:48

I was a marshal on the brow of the hill where the accident started and saw it all , i will never forget that day or the loss of such a great driver of single seaters and sports cars of his era.

It was my first non Championship F1 race i marshaled at .
R.I.P. Seppe

#166 jj2728

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 22:12

Just weeks after I watched him race at the 1971 USGP, I heard the news on the radio. R.I.P. Seppi.........
Photo from my dad's archives. Mid-Ohio Can Am.

Posted Image




#167 nigel5

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 08:26

Just weeks after I watched him race at the 1971 USGP, I heard the news on the radio. R.I.P. Seppi.........
Photo from my dad's archives. Mid-Ohio Can Am.

Posted Image


Very Very great picture !
Thanks a million :clap: :clap: :clap:

Edited by nigel5, 26 October 2010 - 08:27.


#168 sterling49

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 08:40

That is a lovely photo JJ.

#169 SEdward

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:16

Take it easy Seppi.
RIP

Edward

#170 John-w

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:28

42 years ago

 

R.I.P. Seppi.

 

Jo_1024_3_zps9d7d65a6.jpg

 

John-w



#171 Gary C

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 17:54

taken on this day 42 years ago.  RIP Seppi.

 

s6t4.jpg
 



#172 BRM MICK2

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 20:50

R.I.P. not forgotten



#173 Hawkeye

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 16:40

Yes inded, great driver - I well recall the shock and sense of how stupid the ending of such a fine career...................

 

Well recalled on the anniversary.



#174 Dave Roberts

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 13:08

I am working from memory like most here on this subject confused by the mists of time, but I thought it was live. I seem to remember the start of the race being shown, then the race stopped with a camera briefly showing the queue of stopped cars. It quickly cut to a shot of empty track with the commentators not sure of what had happened and having to invent tyhings to say. If the results of the accident were known, surely the BBC would have pulled the item? I think I watched it from a TV shop which I was walking past, F1 racing televising was not regular in those days and the race must have been stuck in the TV schedule at the last moment. It was certainly a bisare bit of TV. Again in these days, the BBC had a thing about showing the start of the race and then cutting away to other sports and returning to the race for updates. So possibly your RB memory was on an scheduled update to the stopped race?

Again from memory I don't think the race was red flagged, but the cars stopped themselves short of the accident because the track was blocked. This again caused confusion with the comentators, not that confusing Raymond Baxter was difficult and viewers complain about Murray Walker. Maybe we should have a thread on posters favorite Raymond Baxter moment.

TV: A kid at the time but like others have said, etched on my mind. I think it was live too. After all back then there was sod all happening on Sundays so a chance for BBC to fill an hour before the God Slot. My memory is sudden camera shot of the fire with Baxter saying something like "The sight no-one wants to see at a motor racing circuit.... As far as we know the car is that of Jo Siffert"  [pronounced in a French accent]. My mum said "No we don't want to be watching this" *CLICK* and on we went to see some **** like Fanny Craddock on ITV.

 

TV coverage digression: There was in UK a kids' programme called "Whistlestop" (Roger Whittaker with a rabbit puppet, really) that had a weekly feature called Whistlestop Grand Prix with a Scalextric type of thing. After a GP had been held there'd be a re-creation of the race (we only saw the pit straight) followed by a rundown of the championship table. I know this was certainly happening in 1968 as after Jim Clark (total national icon) had died my gran lamented: "Look at poor Jim sliding down the list". Any Brit of age can advise if I've mixed up my kids' programmes but that was pretty much the best coverage we got apart from British GP and maybe Monaco.

 

As for Confusable Baxter, who should've stuck to Tomorrow's World, and came out with "Lorenzo Bandini - the man who's never won a race in his life", the 1973 Brit GP mid-race chat with Graham Hill is fun. Youtube I think?.



#175 Dave Roberts

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 13:17

I have an awful recollection of being told by another schoolboy at the time that there was a picture printed in an English newspaper of Siffert being hosed down with a fire hose by a marshal after the fire had been put out.

I didn't believe it then and still don't want to, but I guess it was possible...

Any comments?

(My apologies if this has offended anybody)

MCS

Could be the footage of Jo Schlesser, 68, Rouen.



#176 autodelta58

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 14:22

The footage you are referrring to is of the Jo Schlesser Rouen Crash.I believe the tv highlights for the victory race were scheduled in a 50 minute slot at around 5.30pm and yes the track was blocked at Hawthorns.The last car I remember through was Surtees with a puncture.I too remember the tv programme with the Grand Prix reports and I am sure it was called Tom Tom.

#177 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 16:04

It was Tom Tom, presented by Jeremy Carrad. Here’s an ancient thread discussing it:

The Tom Tom Grands Prix

#178 SKL

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 19:28

Just saw this thread-  I have Ed Heuvink's  book on Seppi sitting a couple feet away in my office bookshelf.  As a college kid he was my favourite driver and I was lucky enough to see him in person at Road America when he was running the STP 917... 

 

I was a freshman in med school studying one night with the news on in the background when the bad news  came on the newscast.  I was devastated.  Several years latter I was in Switzerland with my wife and made a side trip to Freiberg and found his grave...

 

Then I had to go through this all over again in August 1975 when Mark Donohue died...  a cruel sport.

 

 

(note my avatar- not planning on changing it!)


Edited by SKL, 21 May 2020 - 19:29.


#179 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 19:43

The BBC coverage was a 40 minute programme starting at 17.00, presented by Raymond Baxter with Barrie Gill:

https://genome.ch.bb...ndon/1971-10-24

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#180 ensign14

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 20:33

 

 

13.25

: Farming Introduced by DAVID RICHARDSON The Crunch
Pro- and anti-marketeers have their last words on the EEC.

 

 

Plus ça change...



#181 Gary C

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 20:44

...I wonder what actually went out on the BBC that afternoon. In regard the unfolding events did anything go out at all? I wonder what time race
start was bearing in mind this programme was scheduled to go out at 5 o'clock.


Edited by Gary C, 22 May 2020 - 12:17.


#182 dolomite

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Posted 21 May 2020 - 21:21

Some clips from the BBC TV coverage here. Warning - includes graphic footage of the fire. https://youtu.be/VfaILknVWFE